Uninformed cocky users of bad knives

[singularity35]

At its most basic a knife is just a sharpened thin bar of steel with a handle of some kind. Price and finish usually corrolate poorly with performance and utility. Those gigantic camp knives and bowies certainly make for impressive displays and there are many beautiful and wonderfully engineered folders being made; but you wouldn't want to carry the massive things all day long and those pretty knives stop being as pretty after a little field work. I have been collecting new and old knives now for many years, and I have seen many simple knifes that have clearly been worked hard for decades if not centuries. Who are we to say what works or doesn't work, just because the thing isn't made with the latest knife steel or stamped with a preferred maker's mark?

I was once taken aback when I walked into a knife store in rural Texas. Just about everything on display was made by companies like Frost cutlery and Colonial. I asked the store owner, do you have any good knives? Who buys this junk anyway? He said the local ranch hands buy the knives and they use them to cut bale wire and many other farm tasks every day. It is all they can afford and they usually get many years of use from these knives. With that he showed me a cigar box full of knives that his customer's had "traded in" over the years. It was mostly very worn versions of the same cheap knives. You couldn't say that these users were cocky or uninformed; they knew exactly what they were doing, they were doing a lot of it every day, and they were getting a lot of utility from what most of us would consider modest knives.

The same can be said for old butcher knives, machetes, and even your kitchen knives. These are common and inexpensive knives that are often used daily for generations, yet they continue to perform. Perhaps that new custom hunter can hold an edge for a little longer, but does it cut as well and would you want to throw the thing in your dishwasher every day?

There are no bad knives, knives can be expensive or inexpensive, and there can be better or worse knives for specific tasks; but, every knife has its use.

n2s

Yup, what I said.

POS knives=Those that can't do what they are supposed to do.

Quality knives=Those that fulfill the task,, whether pricey or inexpensive.


I got the beatdowns because I questioned what those uber tactical instant deployment folders that my compatriots are so fond of, could do so much better than less pricey ones.

 

[unit]

Yup, what I said.

POS knives=Those that can't do what they are supposed to do.

Quality knives=Those that fulfill the task,, whether pricey or inexpensive.


I got the beatdowns because I questioned what those uber tactical instant deployment folders that my compatriots are so fond of, could do so much better than less pricey ones.

I agree with you, but what is a knife supposed to do?

I was >< this close to acting like a douche yesterday when a guy at work was boasting about his knife that he was excited to bring in to show me on Monday. Everything in his description was indicative of one of those "POS" knives. (black, tanto blade, inscription on blade stating "death waits in the dark", etc.) But one thing caught my attention and kept me from saying something stupid. He said he has carried it for years and has needed to get it resharpened a few times because he uses it so much.

Could he get a better knife for his needs? Perhaps.

But right now he does not know better...just like you and me! (some day perhaps we will look at the current offerings by Strider, CRK, or whoever and giggle about how we thought those were so great).

My point is...we are all formulating opinions based on what we have experienced. And there are things yet to be experienced (unless you believe we have reached the pinnacle of knife technology).

There are some great points in this thread. Price does not always guarantee a good fit to a person's needs.

and depending on who is holding the knife trash could be treasure

 

[singularity35]

I agree with you, but what is a knife supposed to do?

I was >< this close to acting like a douche yesterday when a guy at work was boasting about his knife that he was excited to bring in to show me on Monday. Everything in his description was indicative of one of those "POS" knives. (black, tanto blade, inscription on blade stating "death waits in the dark", etc.) But one thing caught my attention and kept me from saying something stupid. He said he has carried it for years and has needed to get it resharpened a few times because he uses it so much.

Could he get a better knife for his needs? Perhaps.

But right now he does not know better...just like you and me! (some day perhaps we will look at the current offerings by Strider, CRK, or whoever and giggle about how we thought those were so great).

My point is...we are all formulating opinions based on what we have experienced. And there are things yet to be experienced (unless you believe we have reached the pinnacle of knife technology).

There are some great points in this thread. Price does not always guarantee a good fit to a person's needs.

and depending on who is holding the knife trash could be treasure

That's why I always read your posts Ken, especially when they are about thought provoking subjects. You always get what little of my brain I have left, working, when you challenge what I think I know as truth.

 

[22-rimfire]

Not2Sharp said... There are no bad knives, knives can be expensive or inexpensive, and there can be better or worse knives for specific tasks; but, every knife has its use.

I agree. Not everyone is willing to spend $350 for a folder, any folder, custom or otherwise. There are degrees of "good and bad" and it depends on what you are going to use the knife for and what your experience and financial means is. I use Vic SAKs a lot and they certainly aren't usually considered expensive knives. Most Mora's and Opinel's would not be considered expensive, but they work real well. Some people like Chevie's and some like Kias. Variety is a very good thing.

 

[unit]

That's why I always read your posts Ken, especially when they are about thought provoking subjects. You always get what little of my brain I have left, working.

Thanks for reading.

The knife is a pretty ancient tool. My guess is the proper use has been debated since day one...and the "best" has certainly evolved over time. Yet there are some that would provide good support for the argument that some knives XX years ago were better than what is available today (not everyone likes S30V better than what it replaced, for example).

One thing remains true it seems. Anything I declare today....I will disagree with at some point in the future

 

[unit]

Most Mora's and Opinel's would not be considered expensive, but they work real well.

Way to cut to the chase. Those are perhaps the two greatest examples of low cost with high performance!

If someone could slap a different look on those knives they could get away with selling them for a LOT more money...oh wait, some makers have

 

[singularity35]

Way to cut to the chase. Those are perhaps the two greatest examples of low cost with high performance!

If someone could slap a different look on those knives they could get away with selling them for a LOT more money...oh wait, some makers have

Poop colored duracoat perhaps?

 

[unit]

Poop colored duracoat perhaps?

Oh SNAP! No you didn't!

I was thinking something else, but that is an even better example!

That whole concept has me wanting to take a Bedazzler to a Mora sheath...I could make a fortune!

 

[22-rimfire]

I am still learning about knives in terms of judging good, better, and best, and trying to relate that to cost. You do pay for a name, but often the name stands for something.

The best way I can relate to this topic is with 22 revolvers which I really like. I started out with a H&R and used that for about 5 years thinking that this was a good revolver and any issues I had were typical of ANY revolver. I began learning as there were no internet forums and most ranges did not rent guns out then or I certainly didn't know of any. One day I bought a Colt Diamondback 22 revolver and the world changed.... I find it hard to recommend the "cheap stuff" any more, but I could afford what most consider better. I didn't know the difference when I started out buying and shooting handguns. I believe I know the difference NOW. Quality costs.

The same can be said of knives. People swear by their Sebenza's and I just can't bring myself to paying $350 for a factory folder. But then I looked at a Fallkniven folder at $300 and was actually considering buying one. Is it as good as a custom? Probably not, but would I even know the difference at this point in time? If I purchased a $300 knife, would I be willing to use it for what it was designed to be used for? I don't know. But I do know the answer when it comes to 22 DA revolvers. My knife leanings are gradually moving back toward more traditional folders. Considering buying a custom... but would I be willing to use it... cut a piece of wire or slice up a lot of card board when I use SAKs for this purpose all the time. For me the break point is opening a can of beans with a knife... I have used Case's for this with no harmful effect to the knife, but would I use a $300 or $350 knife for this task without major second thoughts?

Determining "value" in a knife is a learning experience. One person will be willing spend $300 for a folder and another will buy a Frost Cutlery folder believing it is just as good. It's a knife and it cuts.

 

[Sep]

The fact that often escape us knife nuts is most people use their knives sparingly. If you don't use your knife heavily, you'll never notice the advantage of super steels. These days even cheap China knives have serviceable blades and functioning locks, mostly. For the average guy whose cutting task is mostly opening boxes and envelopes, that cheap knife works. He looks at $100 knife like most people look at $300 italian leather shoes, and he's not entirely wrong.

 

[unit]

22, You raise some good points (IMO). Truth is it is up to every individual to decide the best value relative to their needs.

You will no doubt hear people boast about "customs" and often there is a comparison between customs and production knives...with HEAVY tones conveying that at some price point, EVERYONE should start buying customs because they are superior to production knives (in many cases this may be true...but not all)

The truth is neither man or machine has the monopoly on good (or terrible). I have seen custom knives that I would not pay a dime for, and production knives that are amazing.

I have a custom blade that I carry every day that is all about performance and I specifically requested that little attention be paid to finish as I wanted a knife that I would not hesitate to use and scar up. Someone wanting a "beautiful custom" would probalby not be at all satisfied with what I have and love!

To use your gun analogies (which is an area I do not have a lot of experience with), there are engraved and inlaid pieces available with hand checkered exoctic woods. A person could perhaps tie up as much money into a rather sterile looking bench rest gun that shoots very tight groups. Which gun is better?

The first gun I ever fired at a target over 100 yards was a Garand that looked like it was dragged behind a jeep before having the forearm caked with pine tar. I was able to put my first 8 rounds into a 5 inch group at 150 yards with the iron sights (it may have looked like hell, but is was capable of a lot more than I was)

 

[unit]

The fact that often escape us knife nuts is most people use their knives sparingly. If you don't use your knife heavily, you'll never notice the advantage of super steels. These days even cheap China knives have serviceable blades and functioning locks, mostly. For the average guy whose cutting task is mostly opening boxes and envelopes, that cheap knife works. He looks at $100 knife like most people look at $300 italian leather shoes, and he's not entirely wrong.

Then again, some people who use their knives for HOURS on end demand carbon steel. (See woodcarving)

 

[Myal]

I am one of the sub $20 knife crowd ..

I carry as folders , opinels and okapis usually
I am gunna need to see some serious reason to lay out as much money as I spent buying my car , to buy a pocket knife . I believe I have knives that do what I need , if they dont , I make one that does .

I dont tell people my knives are better than theirs tho . Hell no , I know they are not . I make simple knives in my back yard using an angle grinder and sometimes even a vice , I test them by shoving them thru a car panel or two , if the tip takes damage or there is dull spots in the edge from that , I find what went wrong , fix it , test it again , till its right .

If I do this in my backyard , I fully expect that folk who pay $400 or more for their knives will easily be able to match that many times over and not even feel it .

 

[Ankerson]

I think we really have to remember that BF is a VERY small part of the knife world with around 1 Million Members...

There are around 9 Billion people in the world.....

Most people who really use their knives aren't here on BF or other Knife boards, they just use what most of them buy, Flea Market, Gas Station or Big Box store knives and just keep on going.

For most people outside BF that $25 knife that sees REAL USE is really more useful than those $400 pocket jewelry knife like items because they never really get used for more than cleaning fingernails, flip toys ect.

For some who own those $400 knives (Enter Knife here) and DON'T really use them for more than a toy....... They don't really know if those knives are really any better than that Buck 110 because they DON'T USE THEM for anything except a toy and are afraid to get any scratches on it ect.

Now yeah there are a few who do use the expensive knives, really use them for more than toys or pocket jewelry, but we are really in the minority.

So who are really the uninformed?

Those who really use their knives or the other ones who don't use them for more than toys....

Kinda like the difference between the guy who spends countless thousands on that pretty 4X4 that never leaves the road because they don't want to get it dirty or scratch the paint and the other guy who just has a 4X4 that hardly ever sees pavement, but it's not all that pretty and he didn't spend all that money on it to make it look cool. One is nothing more than an over priced chevette and the other is a truck.....

 

[ono724]

I agree with you, but what is a knife supposed to do?

I was >< this close to acting like a douche yesterday when a guy at work was boasting about his knife that he was excited to bring in to show me on Monday. Everything in his description was indicative of one of those "POS" knives. (black, tanto blade, inscription on blade stating "death waits in the dark", etc.) But one thing caught my attention and kept me from saying something stupid. He said he has carried it for years and has needed to get it resharpened a few times because he uses it so much.

Could he get a better knife for his needs? Perhaps.

But right now he does not know better...just like you and me! (some day perhaps we will look at the current offerings by Strider, CRK, or whoever and giggle about how we thought those were so great).

My point is...we are all formulating opinions based on what we have experienced. And there are things yet to be experienced (unless you believe we have reached the pinnacle of knife technology).

There are some great points in this thread. Price does not always guarantee a good fit to a person's needs.

and depending on who is holding the knife trash could be treasure

I guess my answer would be: Using common sense, a knife should be able to cut things safely. Just like any other tool, use it for the wrong purpose and it'll come back and bite you.

Of course, as has been previously said, There are a lot of inexpensive knives that can do that job quite well.

 

[unit]

I guess my answer would be: Using common sense, a knife should be able to cut things safely. Just like any other tool, use it for the wrong purpose and it'll come back and bite you.

Of course, as has been previously said, There are a lot of inexpensive knives that can do that job quite well.

Care to define "things"
See what I mean?

Common sense does not have a common definition (i.e. few will define it the same way). The same thing is true of "things" that a knife ought to be able to cut.

I could tell you what I cut in an average week. I can tell you straight up that some knives will not safely cut Kevlar fabrics or some silica-impregnated rubber very well. I would also tell you that a lot of people can go a lifetime without cutting the "things" I have to.

Everyone has a different and (probably) correct answer

 

[Wayne Whitney]

This has been a very interesting post and some of the most reasonable comments that I have read since joining this forum. That said, let me put my 2 cents in, I use knives and I collect knives so I have a few Nice, expensive knives such as a Chris Reeve's fixed blade and a number of Benchmades and such that I have collected and keep knowing they will not decrease in value. I also have quite a few quality knives made by good makers in the reasonable price range that puts them in my catagory of users. I am one of those peope who will take my Ka-Bar or Ontario, or Buck in the woods and use it for what it was built for, but am not about to take a 4 or 5 hundred dollar knife in the woods and beat the crap out of it and ruin the looks and value of what, in my estimation, is a show knife or collector knife and really not a user, to me that is like buying a new Corvette and then going Bahaing with it through the woods.

 

[jimnolimit]

Price does not always guarantee a good fit to a person's needs.

i never recommend an expensive knife to someone unless they can appreciate the finer details. when people ask for help picking out a knife, i usually steer them toward good, high value knives. very few people are willing to pay 2, 3, or 10 times the price for a little performance gain (possibly).

 

[ol' smoke]

I am a trapper(fox bobcat coon). My best skinner is a Russel- GreenRiver paring knife. Probably $7.95 IIRC. I put Axis scales on it and would not trade\sell it. You use other knives around the skull etc., but the skinner is sharp and stays sharp. I also rehandle the "butcher knives" (Ontario, Ecko, Dexter Old Hickory). I don"t like to pay more than $1.00 for my knife stock. Speaking of cutting ability, they were made to be used and sharpened. All carbon steel. The correct way to clean is wipe on on yer jeans. Just my two cents. Adios!

 

[N4SIR]

Thank goodness there are so many smart people here to tell everyone else how ignorant they are.

/thread