Uses of a Tanto.

[Vertebrae]

Has anyone used the secondary point of an American tanto on cardboard ? I did some very un-scientific tests in my garage, on hanging cardboard. They were the flicking with the front portion of the blade tests. Not stabbing with the tip tests. To me, the tanto won every time. The others did cut the cardboard, but with just a quick flick, with all the force concentrated on the secondary point was the only one that penetrated through the cardboard. Has anyone else done this & had different results ? I have no idea how thick the cardboard was, but my guess was 1/8"-1/4" thick.
Maybe this would not even have a bearing on how it would do on a person, IDK ? Was this a worthless test ? Thoughts ?

That's called a "snap cut." You make a flick at something as fast as you can, without committing to a major attack. Works well against trying to deter multiple attackers while not getting tangled up in one guy while the others love in and get you while you're busy. The more abrupt the secondary point, the better the snap cut. Knives with belly are going to spread the force out over a wide area and not do as much damage in that kind of motion.

Snap cuts are the only thing people will almost always universally agree on what the American tanto does better than other blade shapes. It's basic science.

 

[40Degrees]

Has anyone used the secondary point of an American tanto on cardboard ? I did some very un-scientific tests in my garage, on hanging cardboard. They were the flicking with the front portion of the blade tests. Not stabbing with the tip tests. To me, the tanto won every time. The others did cut the cardboard, but with just a quick flick, with all the force concentrated on the secondary point was the only one that penetrated through the cardboard. Has anyone else done this & had different results ? I have no idea how thick the cardboard was, but my guess was 1/8"-1/4" thick.
Maybe this would not even have a bearing on how it would do on a person, IDK ? Was this a worthless test ? Thoughts ?

If you've ever seen cold steel tanto vids. LT does the snap test on meat. I believe it's an effective way to cut someone if you're good distance from an opponent as long as you don't leave your weapon hand out there to get injured yourself.

not the correct knife fighting stance. more of a surprise attack...sneaky little bastard that Lynn Tompson is. that piece of meat didn't know what hit it. LOL

[youtube]qBDCcYqfmeY[/youtube]

 

[Nternal]

If you've ever seen cold steel tanto vids. LT does the snap test on meat. I believe it's an effective way to keep a good distance from an opponent as long as you don't leave your weapon hand out there to get injured yourself.

[youtube]qBDCcYqfmeY[/youtube]

This is the series of videos I was talking about when 3 different knives are tested including the tanto.. There is also a snap cut test.

[youtube]bYozOCQM7CI[/youtube]

 

[Nternal]

In short, I think it completely depends on the tanto because not all are as well designed.The master tanto is obviously one of the better tantos.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

Most people won't notice much difference between an tanto and a more common blade shape for general EDC tasks. A lot of it is just personal preference.

One of the reasons why I think some dislike the tanto, is that a lot of manufacturers tend to have less than optimal grinds on these models. The edges tend to be way thicker than necessary, and don't cut well.

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

It's interesting that we are referring to the two designs as "Americanized" and "Japanese", they are both Japanese in origin.

 

[res1cue]

So I read this whole thread, and there were a few comments I wanted to make, even though I didn't chime in time for some of it (and note, I am not a high speed low drag operator, or ever been in a knife fight, or plan on it)

From a medical perspective, a stab is a much harder to treat than a laceration. From my three years working in a level one trauma center's ER, and 4 years before that as a full time EMT, I have seen a fair amount of knife inflicted wounds as well as other cuts and stab wounds. I will give two stories to illustrate this:

1) Thanksgiving day, a couple years back, we had this guy who got drunk and fought with his cousin, who slashed at him once at the side of his head, and opened up an artery right near the temple. The blood was literally making airtime when he came in, and the paramedics were trying to hold pressure as hard as they could, but he was ambulatory, fully conscious and awake, I don't know how much blood he actually lost, but I would peg it at about 600 cc's or so. AKA, a good amount of blood, probably 10% of his body volume. Two staples and 30 seconds later, bleeding was controlled, and he was actually DISCHARGED and walked out 3 hrs later

2) We had this sheriffs deputy who was cheating on his wife, she found out, and stabbed him twice in the upper chest region with a steak knife. He came in, intubated (he had diminished breathing function, because the hole in his lung negated the vaccuum needed to breathe, AKA hemothorax) and despite going straight to the OR, he died a couple hours later.


now to the OP:

There is two real advantages, as I understand it, to the tanto blade shape. First is the fact that is that it introduces the entire width of the blade (in a properly designed tanto) within the first inch of the blade, which is how they do all those car door demos. It takes advantage of the full power of your swing to punch through a thin but resilient material, and then you can easily glide the rest of it through. In a tapered blade, you would experience increased resistance, as you move deeper. The second advantage is that keeping the tip in line with the spine, you are able to provide more material and make it stronger. This of course, comes at the cost of loosing a belly, and having an awkwardly placed tip, which decreases precision of cutting, which is a big part of utilitarian usage. Whether or not you decide this is right for you, is your decision. Also, this is assuming a properly designed tanto that maximizes these features, like this one:

Beware of tantos that drop their tips significantly, like this one:

Because you will find yourself not only with a delicately thin tip, but also with a blade shape not suited for utilitarian use.



Personally, I like the fact that the tip is strong, and the blade introduces it's full width early on, but I did not like the lack of the belly.. so my perfect blade?
the dao shape:

on this picture you can actually see that the tip is in line with where the spine starts, almost like an optical illusion, it doesn't look like it should:

and here you can see the thickness of the tip:

Btw edwood, I love that kydex harness for the hawk!

 

[Nternal]

So I read this whole thread, and there were a few comments I wanted to make, even though I didn't chime in time for some of it (and note, I am not a high speed low drag operator, or ever been in a knife fight, or plan on it)

From a medical perspective, a stab is a much harder to treat than a laceration. From my three years working in a level one trauma center's ER, and 4 years before that as a full time EMT, I have seen a fair amount of knife inflicted wounds as well as other cuts and stab wounds. I will give two stories to illustrate this:

1) Thanksgiving day, a couple years back, we had this guy who got drunk and fought with his cousin, who slashed at him once at the side of his head, and opened up an artery right near the temple. The blood was literally making airtime when he came in, and the paramedics were trying to hold pressure as hard as they could, but he was ambulatory, fully conscious and awake, I don't know how much blood he actually lost, but I would peg it at about 600 cc's or so. AKA, a good amount of blood, probably 10% of his body volume. Two staples and 30 seconds later, bleeding was controlled, and he was actually DISCHARGED and walked out 3 hrs later

2) We had this sheriffs deputy who was cheating on his wife, she found out, and stabbed him twice in the upper chest region with a steak knife. He came in, intubated (he had diminished breathing function, because the hole in his lung negated the vaccuum needed to breathe, AKA hemothorax) and despite going straight to the OR, he died a couple hours later.


now to the OP:

There is two real advantages, as I understand it, to the tanto blade shape. First is the fact that is that it introduces the entire width of the blade (in a properly designed tanto) within the first inch of the blade, which is how they do all those car door demos. It takes advantage of the full power of your swing to punch through a thin but resilient material, and then you can easily glide the rest of it through. In a tapered blade, you would experience increased resistance, as you move deeper. The second advantage is that keeping the tip in line with the spine, you are able to provide more material and make it stronger. This of course, comes at the cost of loosing a belly, and having an awkwardly placed tip, which decreases precision of cutting, which is a big part of utilitarian usage. Whether or not you decide this is right for you, is your decision. Also, this is assuming a properly designed tanto that maximizes these features, like this one:

Beware of tantos that drop their tips significantly, like this one:

Because you will find yourself not only with a delicately thin tip, but also with a blade shape not suited for utilitarian use.



Personally, I like the fact that the tip is strong, and the blade introduces it's full width early on, but I did not like the lack of the belly.. so my perfect blade?
the dao shape:

on this picture you can actually see that the tip is in line with where the spine starts, almost like an optical illusion, it doesn't look like it should:

and here you can see the thickness of the tip:

Btw edwood, I love that kydex harness for the hawk!

What dao knife is that?

 

[res1cue]

What dao knife is that?

The satin finished one is a demko recon 1 reblade. The black on black one is the emerson CQC8

 

[chiral.grolim]

Just a couple of quick corrections/clarifications...

There is two real advantages, as I understand it, to the tanto blade shape. First is the fact that is that it introduces the entire width of the blade (in a properly designed tanto) within the first inch of the blade... In a tapered blade, you would experience increased resistance, as you move deeper.

MOST blades you will encounter introduce their maximum width (in both dimensions) within an inch or so, but this is not really an advantage as ease of entry as measured by force required to penetrate to a specific depth is much greater for the quickly widening blade than for the slender slowly-tapering blade. The "increased resistance" AFTER penetration is actually negligible compared to the initial resistance required to break the surface tension of the target medium (be it wood, water, whatever). Thus, for blades of equivalent maximum widths, the one with the narrower point and slow taper will penetrate deeper more easily than the one with a thicker point & fast-taper. It's a disadvantage. Again, the Hissatsu's penetration capabilities.

The second advantage is that keeping the tip in line with the spine, you are able to provide more material and make it stronger.... Also, this is assuming a properly designed tanto that maximizes these features, like this one:

Beware of tantos that drop their tips significantly, like this one:

Because you will find yourself not only with a delicately thin tip, but also with a blade shape not suited for utilitarian use.

I am confused at what you are trying to point out here. The drop-point western tanto is actually MORE utilitarian than the non-drop-point because the curve allows you to slip the blade under an object to cut while protecting the surface beneath it (e.g. opening packages, cutting belts and clothing, etc.). It is also more ergonomic and increases tip-control for making exact/delicate cuts, laying your finger along the spine. The other design is useful for fighting and... that's really all. The curve-back spine even reduces its utility as a chisel/scraper.
As to a "delicately thin tip", I already explained that this depends entirely on how thick the original stock is and what angle is used to bring the blade from stock-thickness to edge. Neither design inherently provides more material for a stronger tip.


Regarding the "snap-cut": if it's a technique you use often, this is a great design for it, though a hawk-bill might work better (but has other disadvantages in utility). Who here has ever needed and used that technique on a person?

 

[res1cue]

Right back at you chiral.grolim

MOST blades you will encounter introduce their maximum width (in both dimensions) within an inch or so, but this is not really an advantage as ease of entry as measured by force required to penetrate to a specific depth is much greater for the quickly widening blade than for the slender slowly-tapering blade. The "increased resistance" AFTER penetration is actually negligible compared to the initial resistance required to break the surface tension of the target medium (be it wood, water, whatever).

This depends on the nature of the substance. A blade that quickly introduces maximum blade with is good for a thin resiliant material, but a tapered is better for continuous density, but yielding substance, because at the same depth, to achieve further penetration, a tapered blade requires less force to push a bit further, whereas a tanto-like blade must push the entire width further a bit.

Let me put it this way, if you take two 4 inch blades, one is a dagger, and one is a tanto, and push them 3" into, say a mattress. The VOLUME of steel imbedded in the mattress is different. The tanto willl have more volume stuck in, than the dagger

Thus, for blades of equivalent maximum widths, the one with the narrower point and slow taper will penetrate deeper more easily than the one with a thicker point & fast-taper. It's a disadvantage. Again, the Hissatsu's penetration capabilities.

I am not making on a judgement on advantage vs disadvantage here. Again, it varies on the nature of what you are trying to penetrate. I guarantee that on those car door videos, if you tried with a long and slow taper, you would not be able to achieve such performance.

I am confused at what you are trying to point out here. The drop-point western tanto is actually MORE utilitarian than the non-drop-point because the curve allows you to slip the blade under an object to cut while protecting the surface beneath it (e.g. opening packages, cutting belts and clothing, etc.). It is also more ergonomic and increases tip-control for making exact/delicate cuts, laying your finger along the spine. The other design is useful for fighting and... that's really all. The curve-back spine even reduces its utility as a chisel/scraper.

I am not saying that a drop point western tanto is less utilitarian than a regular western tanto, but that a drop point western tanto is less utilitarian than a similarly dimensioned drop point conventional blade. I agree that dropping the point increases tip-control. And that the other design is useful only for fighting

 

[chiral.grolim]

A quick reply...

I am not saying that a drop point western tanto is less utilitarian than a regular western tanto, but that a drop point western tanto is less utilitarian than a similarly dimensioned drop point conventional blade...

Ah, I see I misunderstood you. You were pointing out that, if you're going to have a western-tanto blade, you might as well have a strong tip-grind (which it does well) rather than compromising for a more utilitarian design (which it doesn't do as well)?

This depends on the nature of the substance. A blade that quickly introduces maximum blade with is good for a thin resiliant material, but a tapered is better for continuous density, but yielding substance, because at the same depth, to achieve further penetration, a tapered blade requires less force to push a bit further, whereas a tanto-like blade must push the entire width further a bit.

Let me put it this way, if you take two 4 inch blades, one is a dagger, and one is a tanto, and push them 3" into, say a mattress. The VOLUME of steel imbedded in the mattress is different. The tanto willl have more volume stuck in, than the dagger

Take two 4-inch blades of equivalent dimensions EXCEPT one blade tapers from full spine-width to point in 1 inch, the other in 2 inches. In ANY substance which does not fracture apart on contact, the force required to penetrate AND continue penetrating through the substance is less for the 2-inch taper (lower edge-angle) than for the 1-inch taper (higher edge-angle). The 1-inch tapered blade indeed has more volume embedded in the substance (although the proportional difference decreases with depth of penetration), but to equalize volume-embedded the 2-inch tapered blade must simply penetrate a little further, and the force required to accomplish this is still less than what was required of the 1-inch taper to reach the same volume.

I am not making on a judgement on advantage vs disadvantage here. Again, it varies on the nature of what you are trying to penetrate. I guarantee that on those car door videos, if you tried with a long and slow taper, you would not be able to achieve such performance.

It doesn't matter what you are trying to penetrate, it's a simple calculation of force over area. And there are plenty of videos out there (including from coldsteel) of the same performance from alternate blade designs. Don't guarantee it!

 

[res1cue]

A quick reply...

Ah, I see I misunderstood you. You were pointing out that, if you're going to have a western-tanto blade, you might as well have a strong tip-grind (which it does well) rather than compromising for a more utilitarian design (which it doesn't do as well)?

Yep, that's exactly what I meant, go long or go home

Take two 4-inch blades of equivalent dimensions EXCEPT one blade tapers from full spine-width to point in 1 inch, the other in 2 inches. In ANY substance which does not fracture apart on contact, the force required to penetrate AND continue penetrating through the substance is less for the 2-inch taper (lower edge-angle) than for the 1-inch taper (higher edge-angle). The 1-inch tapered blade indeed has more volume embedded in the substance (although the proportional difference decreases with depth of penetration), but to equalize volume-embedded the 2-inch tapered blade must simply penetrate a little further, and the force required to accomplish this is still less than what was required of the 1-inch taper to reach the same volume.

I am a little confused. Are you saying that in the diagram below, the longer taper blade would be harder to push further in?

It doesn't matter what you are trying to penetrate, it's a simple calculation of force over area. And there are plenty of videos out there (including from coldsteel) of the same performance from alternate blade designs.

I am sure a strong enough guy will be able to do that, but it would be easier to stab a car door with a tanto than a tapered blade.

Don't guarantee it!

lesson learned :thumbup:

 

[Nternal]

It's pretty interesting to see how the tanto stirs up so much controversy.

 

[res1cue]

It's pretty interesting to see how the tanto stirs up so much controversy.

Haha it is basically the knife version of AR vs AK or 9mm vs .45 ACP

 

[CWL]

It's interesting that we are referring to the two designs as "Americanized" and "Japanese", they are both Japanese in origin.

You need to read more about how the "Americanized" tanto was introduced and why it is called that rather than just a (Japanese) tanto. The 2 blade tips are very different so there is need to distinguish the difference. "Americanized" is the most descriptive term because this is a blade tip that was introduced and made popular in the USA.

 

[res1cue]

Yep, there is very little actually japanese about it, except that it looks like a stereotypical japanese sword like featured on ninja turtles

Here is some information on it http://faq.customtacticals.com/geometry/shape_amtanto.php

This article in fact does talk about another feature of the tanto, the ability to incorporate two discrete grinds, a thinner hollow grind for the main edge, and a thicker flat or convex for the tip, whether or not the consumer finds this to be an advantage is up to them

 

[Lycosa]

Very interesting, these Tanto threads.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I am a little confused. Are you saying that in the diagram below, the longer taper blade would be harder to push further in?

For this image (assuming dimensions not shown are equivalent) the profile on the right is the long/slow taper and will be easier (i.e. require less force) to penetrate through whatever substance to a given depth due to the reduced surface area compared to the profile on the left which better approximates the western-tanto shape.
But what I was typing about previously regarded spine-width/taper, though the point is the same: force divided-by surface area, the pith of edge-angle "sharpness". The profile on the right will penetrate the car-hood more easily, i.e. it requires less strength with the tapered or japanese-tanto blade than the western-tanto.
Now, if the steel/HT require the extra support-metal of a western-tanto to accomplish this task without significant edge/blade damage, I would consider the extra required force a worthy sacrifice!

Yep, there is very little actually japanese about it, except that it looks like a stereotypical japanese sword like featured on ninja turtles

Here is some information on it http://faq.customtacticals.com/geometry/shape_amtanto.php

This article in fact does talk about another feature of the tanto, the ability to incorporate two discrete grinds, a thinner hollow grind for the main edge, and a thicker flat or convex for the tip, whether or not the consumer finds this to be an advantage is up to them

:thumbup::thumbup: I would insert the phrase "more easily" at the end of the bolded section (since there are examples of this on non-tanto styles), but THAT is imho one of the biggest advantages of the design. You can add extra support to that "armor-piercing" tip while keeping a thin main edge...
It could also be ground the other way around if user prefers (as seen on some WC Davis knives, though his aren't tanto).

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

Yep, there is very little actually japanese about it, except that it looks like a stereotypical japanese sword like featured on ninja turtles

Here is some information on it This article in fact does talk ...annel awhile back, now that I think about it.