Uses of a Tanto.

[cziv]

Edwood7 is an Operator, he does't just play one on the internet.

I would tend to believe him because of his experiences and training over anyone who chooses knives because they like how they look. Any of you guys do High Risk entries and CQB against drug cartel gunmen with a tomahawk before?

What the h*ll is Edwood7 doing in Mexico doing high risk entries and CQB against drug cartel gunmen with a tomahawk for? Is he a Mexican SWAT type cop or something?? Tomahawk fighting?? C'mon, there's gotta be a better choice like a bunch of different firearms to back that kind of play, wouldn't you think?

 

[CWL]

What the h*ll is Edwood7 doing in Mexico doing high risk entries and CQB against drug cartel gunmen with a tomahawk for? Is he a Mexican SWAT type cop or something?? Tomahawk fighting?? C'mon, there's gotta be a better choice like a bunch of different firearms to back that kind of play, wouldn't you think?

Do a search on his posts. IIRC, he was doing an entry where his buddy was tangled-up with a BG. No clean shot, but the 'hawk was in hand and stopped the BG (who was wearing body armor).

 

[CWL]

So you'd rather follow an authoritative figure than reason on your own?

Just because somebody owns a gas-station it doesn't make them an expert on ceramic brake compounds or on how Coca-Cola mixes it's drinks.

He's got an opinion like everybody else and as it so happens, I agree with him.

Nope, I've had quite a bit of training in blade MAs, also been trained by professionals including Steve Tarani, Walt Marshall, Louis Awerbuck, Jeff Gonzales and Larry Vickers. All whom I paid for the training.

I trust people's experiences in the real world first, then historical evidence. Postings on the internet is dead last. Too many people have pre-conceived notions based on what is cool-looking, or what they see in movies and video games.

 

[Jesse D.L]

I think people are over reacting about the "deadlier than normal" thing..a 2 dollar kitchen knife would be just as deadly as a 500 dollar tactical knife of any design in the right hands.

 

[stoffi]

Nope, I've had quite a bit of training in blade MAs, also been trained by professionals including Steve Tarani, Walt Marshall, Louis Awerbuck, Jeff Gonzales and Larry Vickers. All whom I paid for the training.

I trust people's experiences in the real world first, then historical evidence. Postings on the internet is dead last. Too many people have pre-conceived notions based on what is cool-looking, or what they see in movies and video games.

That makes sense, but what I'm saying is that one can be a Navy Seal or whatever, but it doesn't necessarily make you an expert on blade geometry. You don't need to kill a man with a blade in order to know better. Just grab a bunch of knife designs and you can see how they slice and stab on a big pork thigh, for instance.

 

[Edwood7]

Better yet, if you can get an entire pig and hang it whit the head facing up, you can try out your knives out on the thorax area, and you can see how a slice does against a rib cage, of who the Americanized tanto point penetrates when it goes trough flesh and bone.

I don’t claim to be an expert on the mater, I’m just a guy that really depends on the knives I carry, and I like choosing the right tools for the job at hand.
I don’t do room clearing activities whit a H&K G3, I have the MP5 or Mossberg 500 for that.
I don’t pull out a multy tool if a need to stab someone, to stop them from doing something to me, y pull out a purpose built blade that was made for the job, and like all my tools, it is something that I have trained whit again and again.

Study human anatomy; get certified as a paramedic, study military history, all of this things will makes you a better combatant.
Use what you know works, but dont take my word for it. Try It out yourself.

And in all seriousness stop believing everything you see on the cold steel videos.

 

[cziv]

Do a search on his posts. IIRC, he was doing an entry where his buddy was tangled-up with a BG. No clean shot, but the 'hawk was in hand and stopped the BG (who was wearing body armor).

I just got done researching Edwood7's threads - I especially liked the axe video thread, very cool. Now I understand that he has a lot of experience in these matters.

One question for you Edwood7 - in your load-out, how do you carry the axe? Do you always carry it in hand or do you have some kind of rig for that thing?

It was refreshing to hear you post that you and others are getting sick of the way things are south of the border and are trying to make a difference.

Keep up the good work man. :thumbup:

 

[Edwood7]

I just got done researching Edwood7's threads - I especially liked the axe video thread, very cool. Now I understand that he has a lot of experience in these matters.

One question for you Edwood7 - in your load-out, how do you carry the axe? Do you always carry it in hand or do you have some kind of rig for that thing?

It was refreshing to hear you post that you and others are getting sick of the way things are south of the border and are trying to make a difference.

Keep up the good work man. :thumbup:

I carry it on my left side attached to my rifle plate carrier, to draw it in a cross draw action.

When I’m traveling light I just attaché a maxpediton sling on the rubber attachments on carry it under my left arm. I carry it like this on most day that I’m working plain clothes or an executive protection details (depending on the treat level of the VIP and the place we are going to be operating in)

 

[chiral.grolim]

just to clarify I never said slash cuts were the "most" deadly. was only saying that slash cuts from a "tanto" shaped blade would be more deadly than another edc type blade...

certainly, if someone got stabbed in a bad spot they would die very fast. just about any blade that has a point on it and is relatively straight is capable of doing that with equal effectiveness... plus, I think it goes w/o any explanation how strong the tip of a good tanto is for penetration.

Thank you for the clarification, but I still disagree, even theoretically.

For a slash-cut, "more deadly" is the correctly placed deeper cut, and the deeper the cut the less accurate the slice needs to be. For a deeper-cut at the same distance from a target, the blade's reach just needs to be further into the target, i.e. a longer blade, the "deadly" slicing being accomplished with the furthest part of the edge into the target (i.e. the point) and the sharper (narrower with a more acute edge) the point the better the slice (easier passage through the material being cut), assuming negligible edge degradation during the cut. The "more deadly" edc slash-cutter (all other things being equal) is the longer blade or thinner tip, regardless of blade style. If you have a (western) tanto blade of equal length / tip-reach to a curved blade (drop-point, etc.), the one which presents more edge passing through the target during the slice is the one with the most obtuse angle formed from tip to belly, which could be either style. Actually, the winner here might be the Benchmade 940 "reverse-tanto"...

As for tip-strength, this again has less to do with blade-style and more to do with point-design: given equivalent steel-type and HT, the edge or tip with more metal behind it is more resistant to flex/facture, i.e. "stronger". There are western tanto-blades with thin tips and also some with thick "armor-piercing" tips where the edge-geometry at the tip is more obtuse than along the main belly... and so it is with many non-tanto blades where the taper from full-thickness to edge is more sudden at the tip (more obtuse angle) and more gradual along the belly. Either style can have strong a tip. Even a dagger can have a very strong tip and has the added benefit of a cutting edge instead of a spine, easing penetration.

One final note: curved vs straight blade stabbing - a curved blade can be more easily angled around barriers, including internal barriers like ribs, and will cut a wider passage. On a slice, the curve creates a natural path for the blade to continue moving when it encounters a substance it cannot cut through, e.g. bone, where a straight blade will impact and stick.
The curve also makes for easier withdraw from a stab on a moving target (or stationary target and moving attacker) - note the design of cavalry, scimitar, samurai swords, etc. Granted that is all swords

...You can use the tip as a chisel, pry, or punch in ways that most knives can't...

...it's inherently optimized for modern stock-removal based manufacturing techniques.

These are the main advantages I see to the western tanto, along with the second lower-point for shallow piercing at a lower angle - great for piecing and slicing tape/cardboard/plastic (cut-resistant material) above a delicate item.
The statement about stock-removal is excellent because it eases the manufacture of dual-grind blades - you can have a thin or even hollow-ground belly and a flat or convex second edge and stronger tip, or the reverse if you need a piercing tip and top-edge and a more robust belly. It also eases sharpening when no 'sweep' motion is involved

 

[sodak]

And in all seriousness stop believing everything you see on the cold steel videos.

No worries there! I enjoy the CS videos, in much the same way that I enjoy talking about the best knife for zombies - all in good fun, but not serious... My favorite part is the way they scowl at the camera after the cut!

 

[chiral.grolim]

(in response to Edwood7's photos)

It occurs to me that your 'team-mates' might think that axe an odd carry choice... I'm certainly not questioning its usefulness, but I was wondering if anyone else in your units carry an axe? Do you get that question a lot on this forum?

 

[Edwood7]

(in response to Edwood7's photos)

It occurs to me that your 'team-mates' might think that axe an odd carry choice... I'm certainly not questioning its usefulness, but I was wondering if anyone else in your units carry an axe? Do you get that question a lot on this forum?

The addition of the tomahawks is something we learned from our US Navy brothers, since most of my team went through the same cross training, they know why and how it works. There are a few RMJ kestrels and at least one other Winkler axe in my group.

Some guys that are outsiders do give us that strange look, but well I believe it is fear of the unknown that makes them look, and fear is what they should fell when facing a guy whit a tomahawk.

Id image it’s the same way when they see someone carrying a large fixed blade.

 

[Edwood7]

Thank you for the clarification, but I still disagree, even theoretically.

For a slash-cut, "more deadly" is the correctly placed deeper cut, and the deeper the cut the less accurate the slice needs to be. For a deeper-cut at the same distance from a target, the blade's reach just needs to be further into the target, i.e. a longer blade, the "deadly" slicing being accomplished with the furthest part of the edge into the target (i.e. the point) and the sharper (narrower with a more acute edge) the point the better the slice (easier passage through the material being cut), assuming negligible edge degradation during the cut. The "more deadly" edc slash-cutter (all other things being equal) is the longer blade or thinner tip, regardless of blade style. If you have a (western) tanto blade of equal length / tip-reach to a curved blade (drop-point, etc.), the one which presents more edge passing through the target during the slice is the one with the most obtuse angle formed from tip to belly, which could be either style. Actually, the winner here might be the Benchmade 940 "reverse-tanto"...

As for tip-strength, this again has less to do with blade-style and more to do with point-design: given equivalent steel-type and HT, the edge or tip with more metal behind it is more resistant to flex/facture, i.e. "stronger". There are western tanto-blades with thin tips and also some with thick "armor-piercing" tips where the edge-geometry at the tip is more obtuse than along the main belly... and so it is with many non-tanto blades where the taper from full-thickness to edge is more sudden at the tip (more obtuse angle) and more gradual along the belly. Either style can have strong a tip. Even a dagger can have a very strong tip and has the added benefit of a cutting edge instead of a spine, easing penetration.

One final note: curved vs straight blade stabbing - a curved blade can be more easily angled around barriers, including internal barriers like ribs, and will cut a wider passage. On a slice, the curve creates a natural path for the blade to continue moving when it encounters a substance it cannot cut through, e.g. bone, where a straight blade will impact and stick.
The curve also makes for easier withdraw from a stab on a moving target (or stationary target and moving attacker) - note the design of cavalry, scimitar, samurai swords, etc. Granted that is all swords


These are the main advantages I see to the western tanto, along with the second lower-point for shallow piercing at a lower angle - great for piecing and slicing tape/cardboard/plastic (cut-resistant material) above a delicate item.
The statement about stock-removal is excellent because it eases the manufacture of dual-grind blades - you can have a thin or even hollow-ground belly and a flat or convex second edge and stronger tip, or the reverse if you need a piercing tip and top-edge and a more robust belly. It also eases sharpening when no 'sweep' motion is involved

Good post, learning a lot from it. Thanks.:thumbup:

 

[CL01]

How well does a Tanto fair up in outdoor survival or urban survival, as well as a self defense weapon?

What do you like about em? What do you feel they excel in, as well as lack?

May it be fixed blade or a folder of some form.

In answer to the OP, for outdoor survival, I'd say the tanto isn't as good, overall. A Japanese tanto style will work for survival stuff, but probably not ideally.

On the SD aspect (Or urban survival), again, it depends. On the American tantos, if the area behind the tip doesn't widen out so much, it could be decent for SD. Has has been stated, stabbing (In the right places) can be more effective in neutralizing the subject than slashing. A Wharncliffe type blade (Or a modified version, such as the "reverse tanto") tends to "stick" better for slicing, but its tip may or may not be strong enough.

"Mercop" has done some interesting tests with students of his regarding defensive responses with a knife. He noticed that slashing tends to be the response when reacting (Behind the curve, so to speak). & when his students did so, he noticed better results when they slashed with the blade up (Using a standard grip) as apposed to blade down (Again, standard grip). The "better results" meaning the slashes were more solid, not glancing, & hitting their targets better. I found similar results doing the same thing with my guys.

Stabbing tends to be more effective, but may not be possible if one's backing up & on the defensive. The dynamics change if you're expecting something, such as high risk exercises (Like what "Edwood7" is doing). In that case, you're going on the offensive &, yes, stabbing's more effective.

In other words, slashing & stabbing are effective for different things. While blade type is important, even a standard, low cost "kitchen" knife will do what's necessary.

The idea of a curved pointy blade can be very effective, a slender tip is needed, but again, it needs to be strong enough so it won't break, although it may happen, regardless.

Also, in regard to "Cold Steels" videos of their tantos going through drums, hoods, doors, etc, keep in mind that's against a solid object, not against a dynamic moving target, such as a human.

The idea of stabbing hanging meat (With ribs intact) is an excellent way to see how your blade will work & it not being anchored will show what "bites" & what might not work that well.

 

[40Degrees]

I think looking at animals and some instruments of death that god gave them is a good example of shapes that are deadly.

sharks tooth, looks kinda like a tanto to me...well half a tanto anyhow

bear claw, no question that's a hawkbill

 

[Nternal]

I think looking at animals and some instruments of death that god gave them is a good example of shapes that are deadly.

looks kinda like a tanto to me.

no question that's a hawkbill

More of a spear point /dagger no?

 

[ASBOB]

I'd like to go back to the OP's more expansive question of uses of the tanto.

I don't plan on using my knife for sd, or for removing paint. I just open letters and packages and perform basis household chores. The American tanto interests me, and I may get one as an experiment, but I thought I would ask here first: for general use, how does the American tanto fare as opposed to the standard clip point?

 

[Edwood7]

More of a spear point /dagger no?

Yep, it looks like a spear point.



The other one looks like the Persian Emerson knife.

 

[Nternal]

I think penetration all has to do with how pointy and thin( not in thickness but how broad) the blade is..I don't think it has anything to do with whether it has a secondary point or not(tanto)..It just depends on how little surface material is hitting the target.I just mean that I don't think it matters THAT much what the blades shape is..just how the dimensions are. But I am finding some discrepancy in this thread..some of you guys say you shouldn't believe a coldsteel video but then believe a james williams video..and even more strange you claim the coldsteel tanto video is unrealistic because it's a static target they are stabbing...but yet a picture of james williams stabbing a static sheet of wood is more credible.Then there is talk of stabbing static pig carcasses and so on..

 

[40Degrees]