Wear resistance test for 12 different steels

Chris "Anagarika";12840687 said:
I'm intrigued by close match between high carbide S30V and simple steel 52100 running beyond 2000.

It can be either the theory of high carbide = long wear resistance is not applicable here, or the smaller grain high acute angle (cliff stamp's) holds longer is true, or that the test medium and method represents real life use, meaning any good steel should last for a while? :confused:
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Answering your questions, would mean I am weaving in & out of iffy interpretation realm. Yes BIG IF because data represent sample pool of 1 steel instance and my own ht and test methodology. yum :foot: sandwiches!

Facts:
52100 has large percent of Cr carbide (carbon over 0.5% go into making Cr3C2)

Aldo (NJSteelBaron) 1084 is highly modified for deep hardening, small grain refinement and resulted with additional carbides
1084 Certification: C- .876 Si- .274 Mn- .803 P- .0100 S- .0040 Cr- .153 Ni- .037 Mo-.007 V- .004 W- .003 Cu- .037 Sn- .0030 Al- .006

Cutting Palmfrond&rope incur wear & tear:

*wear: In this case perhaps the interaction wore down the matrix to exposed carbides and weaken the apex support.

*tear: rubbing & impact against hard fiberous material + cutting board would tear/bend/roll carbides, consequentially lead to edge deformation and or micro-chip.

Small grain keeps the wear & tear at a finer granularity rate (e.g. 52100). While larger grain (s30v relative size to 52100) wear & tear rate is more list carbide size stair-step, so it goes from scary to smooth to hiccup to fail.

OK, I agree with CliffStamp fine grain but not sure about acute angle assertion, unless the cutting media calls for high cutting efficiency(energy impart/apply), thus geometry cut! But fine grain without hard carbide didn't do well for 15N20 & Mora Carbon, right (unless I screwed up ht 15N20) ;) Go further to say, increase the matrix hardness=more strength will reduce the wear but tear might worsen at exponential rate.

This wear+tear resistance test reflect edge-retention aspect while not really looking at efficiency. So a 90*inclusive may have good edge-retention(in a control setting) but cutting experience going to be painful. When one rather have a super thin knife but dull. Most of the test knives (especially those I made) are actually aim for high cutting efficiency; however the cutting bevels are adaptive for this test.

Over-simplify: Fine grain & high % hard carbide(s) both important, ideally we want both for usage longevity. Depend on tasks, we can compromise/trade one or even both. Geometry reigns the efficiency aspect.
 
I'm not impressed with 52100 so much as I am by 1084. One would figure that simpler steels would be significantly worse, but the difference is surprisingly little when alloying and carbon content is factored in. 1084 really is a shockingly good steel, especially considering that it is (if I am not mistaken, correct me if I am) easily home forged.

I would love to see how L6 and D2 perform too. We need to make a group pooling of knives and and cutting medium to get some extensive testing done of all the common steels!
 
I'm happy to be learning those fancy metallurgical words like granularity !!
Cliff Stamp has been shown to be fraud in large part so his name should not be mentioned.
Carbides have different hardness -- iron and chromium carbides are the softest while Mo, V, W, are much harder .Large carbides like the chromium rich D2 will break out as the edge wears leaving a course saw tooth edge. A powder steel like the CPM grades gives a much better edge. Don't confuse fine grain size with fine carbide size.
Edge geometry is as important as steel type .
If you cut yourself don't blame it on me and don't bother to post pictures of the cut !!!
 
If only all of us sit together with knives, ropes, palm fronds and beer .... new factor mentioned: hardness of the matrix vs hardness of the carbide ;)

Thanks for the nice discourse:)
 
This afternoon I casually going to finish up the 52100 knife with palm frond test... It kept going and going and I'm all cramped up.

Final: 52100 - 5250 cuts it barely failed slice newsprint in just 1 hung up spot.


Mete - I agree, I shouldn't wander too far from the newb metallurgical corner - refrain from spamming out mis-information. otoh, knowing me then knowing that I like to hand-waving in pretty much any subject matters, regardless my ignorant. I am quite fond of geometry stuff but much more too learn there too. Oh come on, wouldn't you kindly spare some pity with bandages for a bleeding newb :)

mete said:
I'm happy to be learning those fancy metallurgical words like granularity !!
Cliff Stamp has been shown to be fraud in large part so his name should not be mentioned.
Carbides have different hardness -- iron and chromium carbides are the softest while Mo, V, W, are much harder .Large carbides like the chromium rich D2 will break out as the edge wears leaving a course saw tooth edge. A powder steel like the CPM grades gives a much better edge. Don't confuse fine grain size with fine carbide size.
Edge geometry is as important as steel type .
If you cut yourself don't blame it on me and don't bother to post pictures of the cut !!!
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I'll go for the beer & wine. And perhaps read & learn more before eating more :foot: sandwiches

Chris "Anagarika";12842911 said:
If only all of us sit together with knives, ropes, palm fronds and beer .... new factor mentioned: hardness of the matrix vs hardness of the carbide ;)

Thanks for the nice discourse:)
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I'm a proud owner of some 52100 :thumbup: so now I need only to look for palm frond :D lol

Hand waving is useful to provide hypothesis, and testing will not be fun without hypothesis.

@mete,

I'm curious on cliff stamp, as few persons earn Sal's respect. Perhaps he's violating forums' rule, so be it (let's drop the topic).
I found his analysis (or hand waving) intriguing and am not yet limiting myself in learning this. So I'll read somewhere else.
 
I retract what I said. Maybe the 52100 is a little better than the 1084... You running these edges to dull reminds me of when my sister tried to figure out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. She gave up after a few hundred. Five thousand cuts is hella impressive.
 
Chris "Anagarika";12846794 said:
Seems S35VN not much different from S30V .. as expected .. ;)
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Oops my prediction is off. This s35vn is not better than s30v. Noting that, this s35vn knife is quite thin (0.065" thick x 1" tall) so there were a lot more twisting while cutting frond. Over all, not bad...


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Final palm frond cut test: ZDP-189 - 1965 cuts
 
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Chris "Anagarika";12847609 said:
Interesting that ZDP doesn't last as long as 52100.

Some folks might be looking for a reblade :p
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I am surprised too, since I sharpened this Spyderco Stretch CF ZDP-189 with angle around 40* inclusive - knowing that micro chips can be a problem for this high rc blade and hard impact cuts. It got quite numerous micro-chips, chips big enough to failed the slice newsprint test.

52100 result (5250 cuts) is exciting but then 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' - geez thanks, Carl (Sagan) for reminding me :cool:
 
** Final palm frond cutting test: CPM-M4 - 2475 cuts **

There were 2 small micro-chip started around 2100th cut. Then by 2400+ I saw deformations, eventually failed newsprint slicing test. I sharpened this knife around 36-40* inclusive (similar to zdp-189) to prevent large chipping because of high hardness (65rc). keep in mind that every mis-cut, usually resulted in hard impact to the cutting board - yeah like a short height chopping. So steel toughness definitely became an important factor in endurance test, perhaps take more flex cycle before steel fatigue set in.

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** Final palm frond cutting test: CPM-154 - 2325 cuts **
 
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@Kenny - Early on I predicted 52100 will do well but not supposed to be that far ahead. So, either I hit the newb lucky jackpot with 52100 ht or the test and tester/me messed up. I know my 52100 has super fine grain + 62 rc (tempered at 400F iirc) would out cut some super steels. Well, if the rope test fall similar result line, then still it isn't valid until impartial testers able to replicate the results.

Not all great, since many of knives I made didn't do that well. I've a feeling that K110/D2 reach 2K and K390 will get in the 4-6K zone.

@Chris - well, you've one of my 52100 knife which made in the same batch as this 52100 test knife. hopefully it performs ok for you :cool:
 
** On going palm frond cutting test: K390 - 2200 cuts with no sign of slowing down **

About to empty this 3rd (times) waste container.
tlrz.jpg
 
bluntcut said:
** On going palm frond cutting test: K390 - 2200 cuts with no sign of slowing down **

About to empty this 3rd (times) waste container.
tlrz.jpg
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Heh, all that dirt on those from this? Wells Lamont?

Anyway, this is pretty cool. I'm glad to see 1084 place so close with 14C28N because I've kind of felt they were similar in my use.
 
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