What do you want from the makers ?

[Gossman Knives]

Thanks for posting this pitdog. I'm not underwater yet but have seen a trend in the last 4 months that has me concerned. I know it is the economy but I'm curious if there could be anything else involved. That is one reason I posted in my forum to see if maybe something new would generate interest. I've been in the knife business for 12 years and it has steadily grown. Last year I made the most knives since starting. Well over 300 knives. That was double what I made in 2006 and 2007. This year I'll make probably 200 to 250, haven't checked lately where I'm at.
Someone mentioned blade only. I do that. The PSK knife is one example or any other for that matter. I've made blade only Nessmuks and Kepharts alot in the past. K. Estela always buys the blades from me then has Greg do the handle work. Of all the knives that Kevin has from me, I've never done one to completion.
Mr. Pink does have a point about making knives for a living. If you are one man, doing it by hand, it's tough. Even if you do mid tech it's still tough being by yourself. Look at Dozier and Randall Made, they have help.
I appreciate the support I have and still have. You guys are some of the best in the Wilderness Survival Community.
Scott

 

[Steven65]

I don't ever post in this forum since my idea of camping out is opening the window at the Holiday Inn but I have been collecting customs for over 25 years.

Makers are having a very hard time right now as disposable income dries up. This was never more obvious than at the Knifemakers Guild Show in Louisville a few weeks ago were all but the VERY top makers had a dismal time. Makers like Pat Crawford who always sell were walking around with no sales.
There are so many fine knifemakers making excellent blades between $130-$200 range that when this market has a dip it is felt very strongly by all.

Added to this is the proliferation of excellent factory blades at around $100- and makers are really being squeezed. I can only suggest that makers use all means to market their knives ( BF for example is a great marketing/sales tool) and offer a personal service that factories cannot match.....

I hope things turn around soon and our makers head back into the black quickly......
Steven

 

[11x11x]

I'm sure each maker has a different business model, and aspirations for their trade/business. But I will try to no longer buy a knife (or any product for that matter) from some face-less corportion producing stuff overseas...

I like dealing w/ people directly. I like knowing that my money helps another fellow American making a great product. I like knowing their story, etc.

So instilling that attitude in prespective customers might make a differnce.

 

[Toucan Oasis]

Guys. The old movie is over. Focus on using your skills to build what people MUST have.
I won't elaborate, out of respect, and not wanting to make a bunch of big ole country boys mad.
Your tools need to revert to what they were originally made to do..
Talk to ANYONE, in any field, from sleeping bags to cameras, granite countertops, hotrod camshafts.
What it once was will never be again.
The skills are there. Redirect.

 

[JTC3495]

The problem is not what these guys are making. It is an overall lack of work and money for the general public. I don't think there is a day that goes by that I can't find a knife to drool over on this forum.

I think the more utilitarian hard use type knives are the most attractive to me right now. It is hard to take a $200+ knife out and beat it up when funds are tight. I have pretty much given up on production knives and 90% of my purchases take place from around this forum.

I hope all these makers can stick it out a little longer cause it would be a shame to lose any of these guys.

 

[pitdog]

Guys. The old movie is over. Focus on using your skills to build what people MUST have.
I won't elaborate, out of respect, and not wanting to make a bunch of big ole country boys mad.
Your tools need to revert to what they were originally made to do..
Talk to ANYONE, in any field, from sleeping bags to cameras, granite countertops, hotrod camshafts.
What it once was will never be again.
The skills are there. Redirect.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point, are you saying that we should let old hand crafted skills such as knifemaking die now that we have CAD machines etc ?

 

[panch0]

As one of the wet behind the ears maker I can see how tuff of a business this is to survive in. I am a Project Manager full time and have gone over the numbers and there is no way in heck i could do this full time right now. With all the consumables like, belts, sanding paper, shipping, equipment maintenance, equipment, and TIME that goes into making knives it is crazy the amount of over head. When I make a knife and sell one I make about 4 dollars an hour. I am not the most efficient knifemaker and my equipment is not the best. Right now I am doing more of a public service by making a knife and selling them for almost free at least when it comes to profits. The full time makers have my utmost respect and I may just buy a knife from them just to help some of them out. They are living the dream and wish I could do it full time. Maybe when my wife graduates from college.

 

[kgd]

Economy is tough. People have less disposable income than they used to be. As was mentioned, how many knives does a single person really need. Truth is, even for an avid outdoorsman, you only need one good knife. The fact that I have 20 or so just means that I embellish my hobby with a part time collection sense. Sure I rationalize all this about using my knives not collecting them, but I have too many with different overlapping functions/sizes/materials to call it anything but having a bunch of user collections.

For myself, my knife buying tendencies have dropped radically this year from last. I think this is probably a normal evolution of a knife nut. When I first joined I sort of lurked for a while and learned what I could. I went through a long experimental period trying different types of knives, trying productions, trying customs and figuring out what I like and don't and refining my search image of features that I like. I'm still sort of doing that, but lately I find I have been trading my existing blades for different ones more so than buying new ones. In part this is because like everybody else the economy hit me too. My wife is only on short term contracts and my income is now the only stable one. The second part also has to do with the fact that my collection has build enough momentum of having blades I can let go in order to try new blades. Unfortunately, to the perspective of makers this is not providing a cash influx into the maker economy.

I do still prefer supporting the makers where I can and have made impassioned posts to this effect in the past. I don't think it is a price point that really causes me to make a decision. Really, this issue of production knife versus customs is one that doesn't even come into my head. I either want a specific production knife or I want a custom knife and then decide on the maker.

I try to avoid making offers in the fixed blades for sale section, even though a few of you makers have caught me during a period of weakness. I'm more inclined now to try and plan beforehand on what knife I really want and who I want to make it and then save up that cash and put in an order. Due to the size of my collection I can afford to wait a little longer to save that cash between knife purchases. I mean, I have plenty of toys to play with. What it boils down to is how bad do I want a new toy.

How many knives do I have left to purchase? I really don't know, but I am definitely slowing down from the past and the spacing between purchases is getting larger. Its really not the absolute amount of money that I worry about. I think over time my collection will continue to grow. I think the current trend is that my expenditures on individual knives is increasing not decreasing. I certainly don't subscribe to the "I can buy 6 mora's and 4cold steel econo lines and will do so before buying a custom." I've played enough with cheap productions to know that they are just that. They serve one function but at a compromise to others. Since I have enough knives in my collection now to fill most niches I want, there is no point to buy a cheap knife that does what one of my existing but better knives already does.

I believe customs are unique because they are unique. I think they have value because I respect the maker and trust them to build a product that is true. I can't get the same from a production. I will continue to value customs above and beyond productions. I will likely continue to increase the price point of new knives I buy - to a point. Ironically, this may cut out the makers who are offering at the low budget range of things. Still that is where I see myself going and I know it is not the same for others. I guess in all this I mean to tell the makers that I still value them and I still value a high end product. There will still be a market for the higher end. Don't drop everything in a race to capture the low end market. You might soon find yourself too committed and unable to support the other end of the spectrum.

 

[Thalestin]

I also wanted to add that I think the knife industry is in crisis due to political contributions. Knives are atarting to have a negative stigma with the public at large (or at last with a lot of people). These people won't buy knives. Next, the people that do buy knives probably dont have a need for expensive customs and are happy with their crap knives. Third, it is often not practical to carry a fixed blade at work for a lot of people--thus they stick to folders.

 

[Mentor]

Guys. The old movie is over. Focus on using your skills to build what people MUST have.
I won't elaborate, out of respect, and not wanting to make a bunch of big ole country boys mad.
Your tools need to revert to what they were originally made to do..
Talk to ANYONE, in any field, from sleeping bags to cameras, granite countertops, hotrod camshafts.
What it once was will never be again.
The skills are there. Redirect.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. Thanks!

**********************

This topic is one that I think of often. Many of my thoughts have already been expressed. For example, I think kgd is on the right track with his question about "how many knives do we need?". Many of us relate to custom knifemakers the same way we relate to a favourite sports team - we follow their work, cheer them on, talk them up, and, to carry the analogy forward, occasionally 'attend games' (i.e. buy knives). Unfortunately, unlike a sports team, a knifemaker can't sustain himself on this sort of relationship, since revenue comes only from moving products (though a little fan-initiated advertising helps!). I would love to be in a position to act as a real patron of the (blade)arts, purchasing knives on a regular basis just because I enjoy the craftsmanship and want to support the artist. Alas, a limited disposable income doesn't allow for this. Moreover, I really do try to get out there and use my knives, and I consider them - especially the customs - to be quality working tools. And, since I invest in quality tools that will probably outlast me, I rarely need to purchase replacements. Contrast this with other items like consumer electronics, where planned obsolescence ensures a sustained purchasing cycle.

All of which is to say that I really feel for knifemakers, and especially our W&SS regulars, who make high-quality custom products designed for serious use. Once a customer purchases a knife of a given type, they may never need to purchase another of that type again. Thankfully, many of us are steel addicts.

That brings me to pit's original question - what do we want from makers?

Well, assuming I have the money to spend on a new custom knife, the #1 feature I look for customizability and uniqueness. I like to exchange ideas with the maker about design features and have some input on the materials. Several of our W&SS regular makers offer top-notch service in this department.

If I had to recommend something that would make me more likely to purchase a new knife, it would be to offer several grind options for a given knife model. I know that this could be a lot harder than it sounds, as different grinding jigs and equipment are involved, but it would be need to be able to select sabre, flat, convex, or scandi when ordering a knife.

In closing, I just want to say that I sometimes feel a sense of 'custom knifenut guilt' when discussing these topics. It's rough to hear that business is slow for my favourite makers, and I wish that I could do more to support them. Rest assured that if I stumble across a winning lottery ticket one of these days, you guys will have your work cut out for you!

All for now, and all the best,

- Mike

 

[bigcountry1315]

I like everyone else have been hit by the economy and having just put my second child through college I understand deplinished income. I have been a knife nut for years and have owned a few customs. Since joining bladeforums and reading the great reviews of the makers here I decided I wanted to support BF makers as much as possible. I sold off a few high end production knives I had and in the last month have bought a knife from Bryan Breeden and have orders with Nick Allen and Scott Gossman. As everyone here knows these are great people not just makers. their craftmanship is second to none. I believe in them and their products and will continue to do what I can to support them. I just hope this economy turns around so that we don't lose any of these great makers!

Mike

 

[dawsonbob]

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. Thanks!

**********************

This topic is one that I think of often. Many of my thoughts have already been expressed. For example, I think kgd is on the right track with his question about "how many knives do we need?". Many of us relate to custom knifemakers the same way we relate to a favourite sports team - we follow their work, cheer them on, talk them up, and, to carry the analogy forward, occasionally 'attend games' (i.e. buy knives). Unfortunately, unlike a sports team, a knifemaker can't sustain himself on this sort of relationship, since revenue comes only from moving products (though a little fan-initiated advertising helps!). I would love to be in a position to act as a real patron of the (blade)arts, purchasing knives on a regular basis just because I enjoy the craftsmanship and want to support the artist. Alas, a limited disposable income doesn't allow for this. Moreover, I really do try to get out there and use my knives, and I consider them - especially the customs - to be quality working tools. And, since I invest in quality tools that will probably outlast me, I rarely need to purchase replacements. Contrast this with other items like consumer electronics, where planned obsolescence ensures a sustained purchasing cycle.

All of which is to say that I really feel for knifemakers, and especially our W&SS regulars, who make high-quality custom products designed for serious use. Once a customer purchases a knife of a given type, they may never need to purchase another of that type again. Thankfully, many of us are steel addicts.

That brings me to pit's original question - what do we want from makers?

Well, assuming I have the money to spend on a new custom knife, the #1 feature I look for customizability and uniqueness. I like to exchange ideas with the maker about design features and have some input on the materials. Several of our W&SS regular makers offer top-notch service in this department.

If I had to recommend something that would make me more likely to purchase a new knife, it would be to offer several grind options for a given knife model. I know that this could be a lot harder than it sounds, as different grinding jigs and equipment are involved, but it would be need to be able to select sabre, flat, convex, or scandi when ordering a knife.

In closing, I just want to say that I sometimes feel a sense of 'custom knifenut guilt' when discussing these topics. It's rough to hear that business is slow for my favourite makers, and I wish that I could do more to support them. Rest assured that if I stumble across a winning lottery ticket one of these days, you guys will have your work cut out for you!

All for now, and all the best,

- Mike

A good and thoughtful post, Mike. If I were to win the lottery, I, too, would be ordering knives from these makers.

 

[IUKE12]

I don't think a greater choice in knife designs from the makers is going to change things much. I try to support the makers as much as possible and have more than a few knives to prove it, as most everyone who posts regularly here does as well. The play money just isn't there for a lot of us these days and I think potential future buyers who can fully appreciate a knife from a custom maker are drying up.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Thanks to all who are posting in this thread. It really shows that the biggest problem is the economy.
Mentor you make a good point about grind options. I can do them all and have done hollow, flat, scandi, convex and sabre. The problem with trying to do all of the above is perfecting a particular grind. I picked a grind type that is in demand in the outdoor community and have tried my best to perfect it. I've worked with the convex grind changing my method 3 times to come to what I feel gives the best grind/edge geometry for various uses in the field. It isn't a true convex. It is a flat convex combo.
I can't grind with jigs. I do all my grinding freehand. I can "feel" what I'm doing this way. It's impossible for me to teach someone how I grind. It is definately a hands on learning experience.
Scott

 

[pitdog]

Thanks to all who are posting in this thread. It really shows that the biggest problem is the economy.
Mentor you make a good point about grind options. I can do them all and have done hollow, flat, scandi, convex and sabre. The problem with trying to do all of the above is perfecting a particular grind. I picked a grind type that is in demand in the outdoor community and have tried my best to perfect it. I've worked with the convex grind changing my method 3 times to come to what I feel gives the best grind/edge geometry for various uses in the field. It isn't a true convex. It is a flat convex combo.
I can't grind with jigs. I do all my grinding freehand. I can "feel" what I'm doing this way. It's impossible for me to teach someone how I grind. It is definately a hands on learning experience.
Scott

You hit the nail on the head there Scott when you said you perfected your particular grind ! Who really cares what the grind is as long as it performs to the degree expected of it. A lot of people swear by the Scandi grind for woodworking but if a Convex or flat etc is done right, with emphasis on'done right' then it will perform just as well !

 

[Gossman Knives]

pit, you can let me know when you get your Roach Belly. I'll be working on it sometime next week. I have a big weekend starting tomorrow. Lots of good friends and forum members to hang out with.
Scott

 

[Mentor]

Fair point, pit, but I think that performance is only one factor in grind selection. For some, it can be a matter of preferred sharpening style. For others, aesthetics, or simply nostalgia. I think it is cool when a maker chooses to perfect a particular style and really make it their trademark, and if I'm purchasing my first knife from said maker, I will certainly go for a model that represents the best of their style (sort of like asking a chef what to order at his or her restaurant!). But, dammit, sometimes I just feel like using / buying a ______ grind!

All the best,

- Mike

 

[J.Wade]

There was a post a little while ago about a TOPs knife that the first four post were all about the price, I commented on how this attitude of everything for ten dollars hurts the market and this is what I was talking about, people aren't not buying knives, they are just buying cheap offshore made ones.

this basiclly forces us to compete for business form YOU GUYS the buying market, with these companies.

personally I don't think any skilled trade should make less than 20 bucks an hour. simple five hours four a neck knife 125.00 (25 cost) how many would pay that for a knife made by any of the guys around here?

Guys that make knive in the 4-500 range are still selling, maybe not as many but enough. it just seems that when thing get tough the cheap get cheaper.

You want makers to keep making, THAN PAY THEM FOR WHAT THEY DO...

heat treatment, metal shaping, woodworking, leather working... how many of you can say you have those skills at a level at what the guys around here have,
but yet if a guy want more than a kid a Mckee D's makes per hour to do it they have a hard time selling to the groups that use there knives.



and for the makers willing to make a 60 buck knife with sheath, you hurt us all.Have some pride and price like you should. HANDCRAFTED with every detail under watch for 4 buck an hour.......NOT WORTH IT .....


Makers put there families aside and there health at risk. Lets stop comparing them to machine made 1 of a zillion knives made by people that could care less about you..The deserve to get paid ...


SUPPORT KNIFEMAKERS_______OR THE HAVE TO STOP MAKING>>>>


I see post all the time about the four or five cheap knives someone has bought, save up buy one custom..

So what do I want from Makers, for them to charge what there knives are worth,

I also want buyers to pay what they are worth..

jimi

 

[NWA]

I'm seeing my orders drop off big time as well. Just this past Sept. I had 10 cancelations. A couple of which, I simply figured, canceled, as they didn't respond to any of my e-mails.

Scott, all we can do is hang on, and pray things get better. I'm sure they will, it's just when, is the big question. One plus, like you already stated, it is hunting season and what a great time to be slow @ work There is almost nothing I love more than Deer Hunting. Except for my family.

Good luck to everyone
Nick

 

[mneedham]

I've made a point of buying more custom blades from folks here recently (3 in the last month) for this very reason. I don't need to see any changes from the maker's here, their stuff is already as good as it gets. I hope everyone of you can hang in there.. I'm personally going to buy more, unless my woman sobers up and realizes what is going on.....