What do you want from the makers ?

[kgd]

I've made a point of buying more custom blades from folks here recently (3 in the last month) for this very reason. I don't need to see any changes from the maker's here, their stuff is already as good as it gets. I hope everyone of you can hang in there.. I'm personally going to buy more, unless my woman sobers up and realizes what is going on.....

Good point, always keep a box of wine in da' fridge......Lets go folks, for da' makers

 

[dawsonbob]

There was a post a little while ago about a TOPs knife that the first four post were all about the price, I commented on how this attitude of everything for ten dollars hurts the market and this is what I was talking about, people aren't not buying knives, they are just buying cheap offshore made ones.

this basiclly forces us to compete for business form YOU GUYS the buying market, with these companies.

personally I don't think any skilled trade should make less than 20 bucks an hour. simple five hours four a neck knife 125.00 (25 cost) how many would pay that for a knife made by any of the guys around here?

Guys that make knive in the 4-500 range are still selling, maybe not as many but enough. it just seems that when thing get tough the cheap get cheaper.

You want makers to keep making, THAN PAY THEM FOR WHAT THEY DO...

heat treatment, metal shaping, woodworking, leather working... how many of you can say you have those skills at a level at what the guys around here have,
but yet if a guy want more than a kid a Mckee D's makes per hour to do it they have a hard time selling to the groups that use there knives.



and for the makers willing to make a 60 buck knife with sheath, you hurt us all.Have some pride and price like you should. HANDCRAFTED with every detail under watch for 4 buck an hour.......NOT WORTH IT .....


Makers put there families aside and there health at risk. Lets stop comparing them to machine made 1 of a zillion knives made by people that could care less about you..The deserve to get paid ...


SUPPORT KNIFEMAKERS_______OR THE HAVE TO STOP MAKING>>>>


I see post all the time about the four or five cheap knives someone has bought, save up buy one custom..

So what do I want from Makers, for them to charge what there knives are worth,

I also want buyers to pay what they are worth..

jimi

Wow. On the one hand, I agree with much of what you've said. I understand where you're coming from very well. I'm an illustrator. I've been producing images for advertising for over thirty years, and have always taken great pride in my work, just like a knife-maker would. I, too, believe in keeping the price up. I might mention though, that I'm now out of business, for the most part. Why? Because I did keep my prices up. Because people couldn't afford to advertise, so they couldn't afford those prices. Yes, I finally dropped my prices down to almost nothing to remain competitive, but it didn't do any good: when there's no money to pay for artwork — or a knife — there's just no money to be made. Unfortunately, many makers have to drop their prices, or go out of business. Yes, it sucks. It sucks big time, but that's just the way things are right now: I wish they weren't, but they are.

What will people do if they can't pay the prices you want to keep high? They'll buy decent, but less expensive, production knives. A custom knife can be a beautiful thing, a work of art in its own right, but custom makers simply can't compete for the available dollar. Too many people just can't afford it right now, so — if they want a knife — they have to buy production knives: they simply have no choice. There are a lot of knives that I would love to have but, realistically, my next knife will probably be a Condor for around $20. Sorry, but that's just the way things are right now. Sad, but true.

 

[Bushman5]

There was a post a little while ago about a TOPs knife that the first four post were all about the price, I commented on how this attitude of everything for ten dollars hurts the market and this is what I was talking about, people aren't not buying knives, they are just buying cheap offshore made ones.

this basiclly forces us to compete for business form YOU GUYS the buying market, with these companies.

personally I don't think any skilled trade should make less than 20 bucks an hour. simple five hours four a neck knife 125.00 (25 cost) how many would pay that for a knife made by any of the guys around here?

Guys that make knive in the 4-500 range are still selling, maybe not as many but enough. it just seems that when thing get tough the cheap get cheaper.

You want makers to keep making, THAN PAY THEM FOR WHAT THEY DO...

heat treatment, metal shaping, woodworking, leather working... how many of you can say you have those skills at a level at what the guys around here have,
but yet if a guy want more than a kid a Mckee D's makes per hour to do it they have a hard time selling to the groups that use there knives.



and for the makers willing to make a 60 buck knife with sheath, you hurt us all.Have some pride and price like you should. HANDCRAFTED with every detail under watch for 4 buck an hour.......NOT WORTH IT .....


Makers put there families aside and there health at risk. Lets stop comparing them to machine made 1 of a zillion knives made by people that could care less about you..The deserve to get paid ...


SUPPORT KNIFEMAKERS_______OR THE HAVE TO STOP MAKING>>>>


I see post all the time about the four or five cheap knives someone has bought, save up buy one custom..

So what do I want from Makers, for them to charge what there knives are worth,

I also want buyers to pay what they are worth..

jimi

er wow....i hope that not directed at some of our makers here , who makes a very nice under $70 small fixed blades with sheaths - those two knives are my go to EDC blades that see a ton of use. There is NOTHING wrong with offering a run of $60 blades with sheaths, often it helps the knifemaker make a start and get noticed, or its a sprint run of a favorite design, or its their apprentices that are making them. So what if its a $60 knife, who are you to tell other makers how to set their prices.....just saying.....

as for not buying four or 5 cheap knives.........(my FREEDOM OF CHOICE to buy what i want aside.), a lot of those 4 or 5 "cheap" (i assume you mean production knives) work just finefor many people, myself included. My "cheap" Kabars, Beckers, SOGS, etc all perform flawlessly for me, and many times the decision to buy them was based on the style/design that i simply dont see elsewhere from custom makers.......I also have a ton of customs too......(GL Drew, HandleyBladesmith, Micheal Morris, LILE, J-siah Snowflake knives, Idaho Knife works, etc)

not a personal attack, just 2 cents


EDIT: QOUTE: it just seems that when thing get tough the cheap get cheaper.

uh yes that is correct. Times are tough now. I visit the food bank once a week to supplement my food, I don't drive my truck anymore unlike i absolutely have to, plus I'm letting the insurance on my truck die out come Nov. If I didn't own my place i would be on the street. I dont heat it anymore, i wear longjohns and thick sweaters and a wool hat inside. I have no bills except for pet food which i buy in bulk cases. (internet is wireless and free). I dont go out for coffee anymore, let alone take out or buy name brand items when grocery shopping. All told by the end of the day i live on about $1.25 a day sometimes less. Still looking for work. .......so yea your damn right the "cheap" get cheaper when times are tough - I DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY! :grumpy:

 

[Fiddleback]

Thanks for the thread Pit. We do need y'all support. But please believe that your support is already felt and appreciated. Y'all support makers by reading their posts, checking out their pictures, and posting enthusiastically about their knives. That IS support.

Things are slow. I'm making knives, and offering them really slowly. I've got a huge amount of stock sitting around. Unoffered. Still. Its selling as slowly as I can stand really.

However, since being laid off, and making knives full time, I've got a ton of practice. Its neat seeing each week's knives outshine the last. I'm hoping I can scrape by long enough to wait it out. I'm gonna try. If I have to go back to working behind a monitor, I'll swallow that. But this is hella fun. Isn't that what our guidance counselors told us to do? My degreed jobs were never fun. Never secure either. Whats lost by trying, as long as I have my wife supporting the idea?

One thing I would be all for though would be a raffles of knives. I'd throw in 5 bucks for a chance to win a knife off a maker, and hopefully enough people would enter that the maker would still make money off the deal. Anyone one else think this idea might work?

Ramanon dot com does raffles. I wonder if makers can do them in their own forums here at BF? I'm willing to raffle off knives. I've won several of those, and was able to study several maker's work because of that stroke of luck!

For the first time in 31 years I am unemployed. Now I am going to take some of the money I saved and start a business. I cant justify buying a custom knife at this time.

Totaly understandable. I too, can't buy any. I was laid off May 1. Knives aren't what we eat, or rooves we live under. I've excused a lot of orders at delivery this year, and thats just my business. Knives are knives. Feed your families.

Id love to be able to help support our knife makers as well. I have a couple customs on order but money is really tight right now. I lost my job but really want to honor my orders so im going to sell off some of my collection. Sadly I have to sell some knives I really love. But it will be worth it. The knife makers on this forum are really great guys and Id like to support them more if i could

You all do support us. Please continue this. This forum, and knife enthusiasts that like a maker's work are constantly supporting us all just by reading threads, and posting their support.

Blade blanks, trade knife style. It would lower material costs allowing for more expensive steel or larger blades. Maybe a different etch for the blanks so it's easy to tell which were finished by the maker and which were finished by the buyer.

Frank

Frank! Hey.

I offer blade blanks. I don't sign them, but they're avail.:thumbup:

Wow!!! There are makers making $4.00 an hour!!!!

Small knives are fun to make. But they take as long as a Woodsman. Still. Its moving your work thats hard, and that counts. Plus. People re-order from makers that really speak to them. So a small knife is a seed. A Runt can't be carried off into Yosemite forest by itself. Buy a Woodsman. And a Bushcrafter. Or. A Hunter, and a Ladyfinger. Ooo. You chop?

Three things I tell myself constantly, I`m lucky to be able to do what I love, I`ve got some great customers and friends here on BF, and I`m the luckiest SOB on the earth for having a wife like I do who puts up with me! All I will say is I plan on hanging on as long as I can, and thanks pitdog, for always trying to help us makers. :thumbup:

Hey John. You said it. My wife is still here, and my kids are fine. Holy moly I feel lucky.

Thanks for posting this pitdog. I'm not underwater yet but have seen a trend in the last 4 months that has me concerned.

...


I appreciate the support I have and still have. You guys are some of the best in the Wilderness Survival Community.
Scott

Nice post Scott.

Fair point, pit, but I think that performance is only one factor in grind selection. For some, it can be a matter of preferred sharpening style. For others, aesthetics, or simply nostalgia. I think it is cool when a maker chooses to perfect a particular style and really make it their trademark, and if I'm purchasing my first knife from said maker, I will certainly go for a model that represents the best of their style (sort of like asking a chef what to order at his or her restaurant!). But, dammit, sometimes I just feel like using / buying a ______ grind!

All the best,

- Mike

I now do Scandi's. Just sayin.

 

[upnorth77]

I would love to have a custom made knife from a great maker to take with me on the deer hunt. Who wouldn't? I've seen some of the blades offered here, and they are simply beautiful works of art, and yet so functional!

At the same time, in these grim economic times (for all of us)...for the price of some of these excellent blades I could use to dress out my deer, I could instead buy a butchered beef cow....well...I think you see my point.

Perhaps with the way things are, we're entering a period now where hobbyist blades are coming into the fore, hence those folks buying and selling handmade knives at a price point that is "too low"? Despite having worked for that $4 an hour, the hobbyist maker is thrilled that someone else wants and will use something he made! Very cool!

In no way do I mean to say that the knives made by professional knifemakers are not worth the money, I just mean to say that I can't afford them right now, until I'm 100% sure that my next paycheck (and the one after that) will also be arriving on schedule.

 

[Rotte]

Good discussion. Let's continue to keep it civil.

For my part, I really value our makers. Deeply. I have stopped buying anything except customs. Well....I did order a RAT Cutlery knife, but I value them too.

I vote with my dollars, and I vote to keep our custom makers going. I feel fortunate to have a secure job, but still probably spend more than I should on knives--my wife is more than certain about that.

I love what our makers make. They love making knives, and their passion shows. The pride shows in the craftsmanship. That's what I cherish in a knife. For example, I've got an order in with Fiddleback for one of his Bowlegged Joe's. It's a weird little knife, and I really don't need it. It's a specialty item. But it reflects a craftsmanship that I value. And I know I'll use it and cherish it. So I ordered it not because the design is something I'm missing, but because it represents something particular about Andy and his perspective on knives, his love of knives.

So, what I want from the makers, they provide and then some. They dedicate themselves to the blade, the edge, the tool we all love and respect. For that they have my gratitude and respect.

 

[ms3902]

Good discussion. Let's continue to keep it civil.

For my part, I really value our makers. Deeply. I have stopped buying anything except customs. Well....I did order a RAT Cutlery knife, but I value them too.

I vote with my dollars, and I vote to keep our custom makers going. I feel fortunate to have a secure job, but still probably spend more than I should on knives--my wife is more than certain about that.

I love what our makers make. They love making knives, and their passion shows. The pride shows in the craftsmanship. That's what I cherish in a knife. For example, I've got an order in with Fiddleback for one of his Bowlegged Joe's. It a weird little knife, and I really don't need it. It's a specialty item. But it reflects a craftsmanship that I value. And I know I'll use it and cherish it. So I ordered it not because it the design is something I'm missing, but because it represents something particular about Andy and his perspective on knives, his love of knives.

So, what I want from the makers, they provide and then some. They dedicate themselves to the blade, the edge, the tool we all love and respect. For that they have my gratitude and respect.

I could not have said it better. For our makers to do what they love is a blessing. I only wish that I could support each and every one of them. I am blessed to have a job where there is some security. At the same time I to have been concerned about my job security.
While I work at a great Engineering firm I am still the low man on the totem pole. And unfortunatly for me I am a guy that has no certified training. The guys that I work for hired me with no experience, and for this I am very thankful. But then at the same time I worry that, even though these guys would do all they could for me in finding another job, I will not be able to get another job in the same field because of my lack of a degree or training in my field.
I can only pray that our great makers on this forum can hang in there through these tough times. So many of them are down to earth guys that, like us, have a great passion for knives. And while I am not able to buy all of the knives that I enjoy looking at I am still very blessed to own the ones that I do.

 

[J.Wade]

er wow....i hope that not directed at some of our makers here , who makes a very nice under $70 small fixed blades with sheaths - those two knives are my go to EDC blades that see a ton of use. There is NOTHING wrong with offering a run of $60 blades with sheaths, often it helps the knifemaker make a start and get noticed, or its a sprint run of a favorite design, or its their apprentices that are making them. So what if its a $60 knife, who are you to tell other makers how to set their prices.....just saying.....

NO your right it is directly aimmed at maker around hee, I have handled there knives and they are worth more....THey deserve more, cost for knifemakers go up up up but yet prices go down and down . I know things are tough, I am out of work also, ...I live near Windsor... I read alot of post around here though about new gear , so money is still getting spent,

I just feal that no persons that can make the knives I see around here should get less the 125 for there wears, I have had the pleasure of handleing a lot of knives and everything I handled from any maker on this forum was worth a fair market price. way better than any of the knives in that range from factory.

I know a knife is a knife but one made by a guy that knows your name .....is a good knife.


cya
jimi

 

[Bushman5]

fair enough, i understand that aspect of it!

 

[JTC3495]

This is great reading everybodies views on this. I guess we can all agree that this economy sucks. I repair cars and it is just as slow and difficult for us too.

I do know that we as knife collectors would be worse off if any of you stopped knifemaking. You all need to be proud that you have alot of fans around here.

 

[JCavSD]

I'm looking for makers that are willing to meet my specific needs for a reasonable price. My job being fairly secure, I have a luxury that many do not. The makers that I've been doing business with have been more than accommodating. People like John (Stomper) and Eddie White (shadowknives) will always get my business because they listen to what I want.

 

[JCavSD]

Oh yea...I forgot to mention that I want some of these dudes to start offering knife making courses. If I could find someone in socal (San Diego County) to give a two day course to get me on the road I'd pay good money for it.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Right now I am looking at buying a Blackjack 1-7

I would LOVE to buy a Jeff Crowner, or another custom blade,

BUT

Can a custom maker make a similar blade anywhere near the mass produced price? NO! Now don't get me wrong, the custom blade is probably going to be FAR superior quality.

Right now the public seems to want to accept the fact that we are going to allow more and more restrictions on our freedoms and more and more taxes on our pay. Because of this, I want to learn how to beat a knife out of a truck spring rather than buy a custom knife.

After society collapses and everyone wakes up from their politically correct stupor, I will be more than happy to get back in the game.

Carl-

 

[LMT66]

The economy is very bad. Being in the freight business, I can tell you that tonnage & volumes are down significantly and have had just a slight uptick recently. I can also say that the boom we had in the 90's will never return in our lifetime. After this recession ends, people will be very frugal with their money, or what money they have left. We spent like drunken sailors for years (no offense to any of you drunken sailors here!)
With your businesses, hope for the best but plan for the worst always.

This will probably not help any but I know we all shop at BassPro, Cabelas, REI, "enter your store here_____",.
I always check out the knife sections when I go. It's part of the trip. As a knife enthusiast, I ask them why they don't carry anything other than the same three or four brands, all of which are nothing I would carry when I'm out camping, hunting or hiking. I also mention that there are a lot of excellent knifemakers around that could benefit from each of their stores having a few customs on hand. Imagine the help to your small business if this could be done.
I'm sure it goes in one ear and out the other but I would advise anyone who visits these stores to do the same. It would be impossible for a knifemaker to solicit the companies themselves but the customer is always right and they should stock what we want. I suggest emailing their corporate offices and mentioning this.

On another subject. Advertise Advertise Advertise! Band together, pool your funds to do this.
From what I understand, car dealers in each region all pay into a fund for advertising space in local papers. Perhaps a bunch of makers could form some type of makers group and run a add in a knife magazine or Outdoor magazine listing everyone who is involved, including a photo of their best custom model, website info, etc.
Also, Your websites need to be set up and fully operational. If you have a website half finished and folks visit it, chances are they won't view it again. You had their attention but they left. Attention spans nowadays are about the length of time needed to take a swig or two of beer or a sip or two of wine. There are plenty of computer geeks here that I'm sure would help you out for nothing.


Lastly, free advertising. List your knives on Ebayand get them noticed. List a bunch at a time a few times and include every search word possible to draw attention. "Bushcraft knife, Camping Knife, Woods knife, Hunting knife". On your sale page description,
sell your product and link your website.
Another point to consider. Ask for a deposit that is at least half the cost of the blade or one that covers your materials and some labour. When taking an order, stipulate that if they back out, they lose the deposit or the other option is you can put the knife aside until they can follow thru. At least your material cost is paid for after the committment. I think that is fair for you, the makers, since quite a few dissappear after ordering.

Another thought, Ask the big or more well known makers for advice. Some of you mingled with some well known makers in Vegas. Let them school you in running your business and attracting business. "Knowledge is power"

Another thought, sell abroad to certain countries. Sign up on British Blades, mingle, show your work. The UK people like your knives. It's a big planet and planes circumnavigate it daily carrying US Mail. Get your product out there.

Lastly, you guys make high quality knives. Don't feel bad raising your price a bit. I recall seeing a picture of Andy with a caption over his head. Funny picture but it's true what the caption said. That goes for all of you makers here.

 

[pitdog]

pit, you can let me know when you get your Roach Belly. I'll be working on it sometime next week. I have a big weekend starting tomorrow. Lots of good friends and forum members to hang out with.
Scott

Can't wait Scott and I'm sure many others are looking forward to some reviews !

 

[Benjamin Liu]

A little more on expanding the market. What needs to happen is for more people who are not currently into knives to get into them. There are more than enough people with more than enough money for all custom makers to make the money they need. The problem is that all these people don't know they need custom knives yet.

Just collecting knives might not draw many people, so this would have to be lots of people getting into outdoor activities, survival, martial arts/self-defense, etc.

Unfortunately even going on a simple hike is more effort for most people than watching TV, playing video games, or social media. That's the real competition. Many martial arts instructors also think the other local schools are their competition, but in reality what they are competing against are various forms of instant entertainment, and the same goes for various outdoor activities.

Most people getting into these activities would go with production knives but a percentage will go with customs. Many people are probably also not aware that customs don't have to be very expensive and in fact are sometimes less than production knives. My first custom (not counting blades from the Philippines) was a Livesay Woo which I bought for $27.00 and a month earlier I bought a CRKT Stiff KISS for $26.00. I wouldn;t have bought the CRKT had I seen the Woo first. Before that I thought a custom knife would be several hundred dollars.

This obviously isn't a short-term quick fix. It would take a while. Actually doing it would also be a challenge since there is no real industry with lots of money for advertizing, or a system of large businesses mixed with the school system like in sports. It would probably be everyone taking individual friends camping, hiking, shooting, etc.

 

[LMT66]

A little more on expanding the market. What needs to happen is for more people who are not currently into knives to get into them. There are more than enough people with more than enough money for all custom makers to make the money they need. The problem is that all these people don't know they need custom knives yet.

Good point. I showed a coworker a Brain Andrews Bushcrafter and he handled it and was at a loss for words. I told him to check out the website. He had never seen a knife like that in his life and was shocked it cost what it did which was very reasonable to him. Maybe he ordered one?
Show off your blades folks and have the website address handy for them. Word of mouth advertising is free and will be passed on.

 

[Senang]

Hey Primitive Man...Since I cant sell a knife here on this forum, I sure as heck can give you one....I will give you one of my blades for free...One of Jeff Crowners knives....There is no rules for free stuff...I feel like giving today...You know how to contact me...I will also show you how to make a camp knife from a truck spring if you want as well...We can set up a seminar sometime for you and friends fro free....Jeff

Right now I am looking at buying a Blackjack 1-7

I would LOVE to buy a Jeff Crowner, or another custom blade,

BUT

Can a custom maker make a similar blade anywhere near the mass produced price? NO! Now don't get me wrong, the custom blade is probably going to be FAR superior quality.

Right now the public seems to want to accept the fact that we are going to allow more and more restrictions on our freedoms and more and more taxes on our pay. Because of this, I want to learn how to beat a knife out of a truck spring rather than buy a custom knife.

After society collapses and everyone wakes up from their politically correct stupor, I will be more than happy to get back in the game.

Carl-

 

[Senang]

What do all of you really want to see from us makers? We can make the prices lower for example: If a group orders more than one blade at a time (group discount) I feel that as a blademaker it is easier to fill an order of lets say five or ten blades at a time....It really does not take that much more to do 5 or 10 blades at a time...This is just a thought and recommedation for makers and buyers alike. If for example a blade maker has a template of a particular blade that is in demand, then it is easier to make five or ten customs because of the template. For example when you have to heat treat one blade, five or ten...Same amount of time really....Yes, grinding time will take a little longer. handle material, glue and pin...etc is basically the same...Fit finish is a little longer than doing one blade but who would complain really...If blade maker got five or ten orders in at a time then he could lower his prices making it worth it to both parties...Then the blade makers are not working for peanuts and the knife buyers are saving money getting a great product...Ta Da...Problem---Solution!!!! My two cents...Jeff

 

[wintermute]

To answer the original question in the thread, I love what a lot of the makers on this board are doing. Getting that out of the way, with the way the economy is, I've been trying to purchase more and more on a person-to-person or small business-to-person basis. That's the only way we're going to pull out of this recession. deals between the gov'ts, banks, and big business aren't really going to filter down to the little people.

On top of that, the makers have a tough business model to profit off of. It's a niche market, and really the only way to "make it big" is to get noticed and bought out, in some way, shape or form, by a big manufacturer. Then you add cultural pressures on top of that. At least here, in NY, the fixed blade has almost become just an objet d'arte. If you look at our crazy knife laws, a fixed blade is probably the most legal blade that you can carry. but people are going to freak out around you and you'll likely be hassled by LEOs for carrying one.

Forgot what I was saying...