What happened??

[midnight flyer]

Midnight Flyer, your Father should have whipped your a$$ again for speaking to him like that. Grand parents are there to assit the parents, notice I didn't say be the parents but your parents i.e. grand parents are their to help you. Notice there not called Grand Friends, their your mom and dad for petes sake, these are not strangers and if you think they have no influence on your children are how your children are raised, you need help. Do think your Father isn't your Dad anymore because your older now, now he's your friend. Sure the nature of the relationship changes as time goes by and you may grow to become friends but these people are and always will be your parents. If they still have all their faculties and they tell you or ask you to do something, you do it. Just because you get older, you don't talk to your parents like that it is disrespectful. Honor thy Father and Mother, that doesn't mean until you get to be of legal age, that pretty much means as long as your alive. Notice there isn't much in the good book about honoring your children, ask yourself why that is? It's is not your parents place to honor you it is their job to raise you up in the way and look after you which includes giving you advice and guidance on how to raise your children when and if you have them.

I have to say, I laughed all the way through your post. You don't know me or my Dad, so your post was almost hilarious.

My father is a rough, mean SOB, and damned proud of it. He never wanted to be anyone's friend, and doesn't have any to this day. He is just fine with that. In his opinion, most people are worth a crap to begin with, and if you are under 60 or haven't gone and fought in a war, you don't merit his attention.

He takes no responsibility for his grandkids NOR DOES HE WANT ANY. He explained it to me and my sisters this way: you guys are the ones that had them. Enjoy your kids - I already raised mine.

This is the same guy that kicked me out when I was 20, and told me not to come back. Hell, he didn't even talk to me for about 6 - 7 years or so. He didn't see any reason to!

He doesn't see much of his grandkids, and he likes it that way. Too noisy, too distracting, riles up my Mom (who loves all kids) and too much responsibility for a group of brats.

Here's the funny part about your trite little sanctimonious post: When I asked him my question, he thought about if for a minute, THEN LAUGHED. He got a charge out of having the situation put in terms he could relate to. He admitted that he wouldn't have listened to anyone, period. He actually understood then, and let the whole thing drop.

Dear old Dad isn't some little milksop. He is old school German all the way, raised without a father during The Depression. At 82, he is still as rough as a cob.

Thanks for the levity. I'm still chuckling. He would too if he read the part about how he should have whipped my ass. I am sure he would agree, just on principle.

Robert

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

So you trust them with knives and guns....but only if you're around or they're being supervised?

That's not really "trust", is it?

No sir , I trust them , however society doesn't trust them , which is why there are rules , regs and laws preventing me from allowing them to care for them when I am not around. And I agree , 12 year olds , like adults have trouble controlling their emotions ( road rage anyone ? ).

Best we can do is educate , discipline when wrong is done , praise , reward and appreciate when right is done , trust until trust is broken , and never give up on them.

Would I have a problem with my 9 year old or 15 year carrying a slipjoint or other small folder to school , nope not at all ( we have a stupid 3" max blade length concealed carry rule here , which is why I specified small folder ). Unfortunately , they will never have the freedom to do that like many of us did.

 

[PV29]

Too many people associate knives (and guns) with illegal activity and criminals. Conditioned by the media, movies, and the mainstream press, folks now are convinced that only bad people carry such things while good, law abiding folks have no need for them. This is the first part of the problem. The mentality that one must show a compelling need to have a knife in order to clearly justify carrying it. Mere possession implies bad intent unless you can somehow prove to these folks otherwise.

The second part is that while there is certainly a problem with gangs and other criminal elements in our society using illegal weapons for criminal purposes, the politicians and other people with authority find it easier and more convenient to just ban/vilify an object than to tackle the actual problem. Taking down the gangs is a tough and dangerous job. Preventing our youth from joining them is a long and painstaking process. It's just so much easier and simpler to just ban an object and label it as the tool of criminals. As if this will make the real problem go away. :jerkit:

I am a respected partner in my firm, have been there 12+ years, and people at work still get wide eyed when I use my custom small Sebenza classic to open a Tyvex envelope or other package on my desk. No flicking, no fancy maneuvers, just open, use and put back IWB. And I still get the occasional "Why do you carry that?" question. :grumpy:

 

[AbnInfantry]

Young children, even 12 year olds, still have trouble controlling their emotions, and their judgement is, more often than not, poor.

David G. Farragut (who became the USN's first full admiral) was born on 5 July 1801 and entered the U.S. Navy as a midshipman on 17 December 1810 at the age of nine. During the War of 1812, Farragut served aboard the USS Essex. After the Essex captured several British ships in the Pacific, Farragut was assigned to command one of the prize vessels and independently sail her to a distant port. He was twelve years old.

Farragut was on the Essex when she fought the British warships Phoebe and Cherub in Valparaiso harbor in one of the bloodiest naval engagements of the conflict. He wrote in his journal, "I performed the duties of captain's aide, quarter gunner, powder boy, and in fact did everything that was required of me. I shall never forget the horrid impression made upon me at the sight of the first man I had ever seen killed. It staggered and sickened me at first, but they soon began to fall around me so fast that it all appeared like a dream, and produced no effect on my nerves." After the battle he was at work for nearly a month assisting the surgeons in the care of the wounded, when the survivors were sent to New York.

History is replete with examples of young men who fought in wars, even successfully commanded troops, at ages when many contemporary, dull-witted Americans refuse to even trust them to possess a pocketknife, let alone a firearm or take a sip of wine.

Jessica Carpenter knew how to shoot and there were firearms present to deal with the crisis that arose in the Carpenter home in Merced, CA when 27 year-old Jonathon Bruce showed up on 23 August 2000. There was just one problem. Under the “safe storage” laws enacted in California and other states, parents can be held criminally liable unless they lock up their guns when their children are home alone. That’s just what the law-abiding Carpenters had done.

Some of Jessica’s siblings—Anna, 13; Vanessa, 11; Ashley, 9; and John William, 7—were still in their bedrooms when Bruce broke into the farmhouse shortly after 9 AM. Bruce, who was armed with a pitchfork, had cut the phone lines. So when he forced his way into the house and began stabbing the younger children in their beds, Jessica’s attempts to dial 911 were futile. Next, Jessica did the sensible thing: she ran to where the family’s guns were stored. But they were locked up tight in accordance with state law since children can't be "trusted" with weapons.

“When the 14 year-old girl ran to a nearby house to escape the pitchfork-wielding man attacking her siblings,” wrote a Fresno Bee reporter, “she didn’t ask her neighbor to call 911. She begged him to grab his rifle and ‘take care of this guy.’” He didn’t, so Jessica ended up on the phone.

By the time sheriff’s deputies reached the home, John William and Ashley were dead. Ashley had apparently hung onto her assailant’s leg long enough for her older sisters to escape. Anna was wounded but survived. When the deputies arrived, Bruce rushed them with his pitchfork. They shot him dead. With their guns. The children’s great-uncle later told reporters: “If only [Jessica] had a gun available to her, she could have stopped the whole thing. If she had been properly armed, she could have stopped him in his tracks.”

 

[LX_Emergency]

But, about the OP...the Grandpa seems like a good guy. The Dad sounds like a rollerblader.

What wrong with rollerbladers? I'm one. (about 90% of this footage is me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ubwhyln9oc)

You must be a skateboarder or something.

As for the dads reaction. (the original poster story)The guy just doesn't get kids.

It's called reverse psychology people. The dad just gave the kid the best reason to find some knives....because his dad doesn't want him to. And the kids is about to hit puberty as well. I can see some fun years in the nears future.

 

[jim preston]

I guess I'm lucky. I have parents that discipline. I have parents that would spank me when I'm younger, and now will fine me, confiscate stuff, etc.
I also have parents that will buy me knives, guns, and ammo, and trust me to use them. They pretty much accept that I will have a knife on me at all times. In fact, when my mom had to reclaim my Kershaw Sapphire, after it had been lost at a school-sponsored event (does Christmas caroling in the neighborhood outside the school really count as school-sponsored?) she said she would have never thought about me having a knife on Saturday.
The thing is, people are afraid of what might happen. Someone might get hurt. True. Someone also might get killed in a car accident. In fact, it's far more likely.
It's the same everywhere. I've had white folks say "someone might get really offended by that" for saying, in a sarcastic voice "the AIDS virus was only released to kill black people." At the same time, I can tell the classic racist joke from Boondock Saints (you know, a white guy, a black guy, and a Mexican find a genie) around my black friends and no-one gets offended.
Lay off on the might, people. Or, more accurately, get real! Bad things, both intentional and unintentional, do happen. Our media and out government, however, seems to make us think there is a threat to our health and well-being behind every corner.

 

[mnblade]

Buying a knife for a kid without the parents' permission? That's not cool...

Agreed. And choosing an assisted opener to boot!?

I feel for the Grandad (and I suspect the kid's father is a twit). But Grandad would have been more wise to A) get clearance from the parents first, and B) gone with something a little more traditional looking, such as a Case or Buck slipjoint, or a Swiss Army knife.

 

[AMRaider]

...Many will pass their fears onto their children , I say good on gramps for giving the gift he did. Someone needs to teach the future generations , that life aint a video game , knives , tools , bows and other items are not to be feared , but respected.

We need more of this for sure! :thumbup:

 

[allenC]

History is replete with examples of young men who fought in wars, even successfully commanded troops, at ages when many contemporary, dull-witted Americans refuse to even trust them to possess a pocketknife, let alone a firearm or take a sip of wine.

While there are some examples of folks as young as 12 years of age doing remarkable deeds, it is by far the exception rather than the norm.

I don't think that any commander would willingly choose a platoon of 12 year olds over a platoon of 20 year olds....and for very good reason....12 year old boys are still just that; boys, not men.

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

Perhaps the grandpa is an idiot.
Or perhaps the grandpa is constantly undermining the father's teaching.
Or perhaps the grandpa did not deserve respect.
Just because someone is older than me, that does not automatically get my respect.

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know enough about the kid, the grandfather, or the father of the kid, to make a good call in this instance.

I guess pulling the grandfather aside and talking to him is out of the question then eh? Way to show the kids how to respect others! I didn't say it was all about age. But let me tell ya, it sounds to me like the father is a little controlling and egotistical. For someone to fly off the handle like that in front of others, attending what is supposed to be a special time for the child shows disrespect for for the grandfather, the son and the guests!


The whole "I'm going to do and say what I want no matter who I hurt" attitude is whats wrong with society today! Just take a look around at the state of our country due to the thoughtless actions of others! It starts with the little things in life and weaves its way into all facets of ones life.

 

[AlexSchira]

I'm reading an autobiography of a Hitler Youth member who was put in charge of an entire 3,000 man unit, ranging in ages from twelve up to sixteen. He himself, was nearly seventeen years old, given a pistol and the authority to have his 'men' shot for insubordination. The higher-ups considered this children's brigade an actual unit, showed up to give out medals after some kid shot down a B-17 with an anti-aircraft turret. He was invited to a private meeting with Hitler himself, all the commanders there were kids old enough to be high school juniors at most nowadays.

...Historical atrocities aside...The fact they used children like that is sick, but these kids were actually functioning as semi-competent soldiers at ages where most kids nowadays can't even get a work permit. Kids can't function in the complex real world, but throughout history young kids by today's standards could handle quite a bit. Alexander of Macedonia was eighteen when he led a charge to conquer Greece. When I turned 18, I could...Vote, and sign up for the draft.

 

[Gespenst]

IMO the problem is the parents and the sad fact is that until someone breaks this chain and starts taking responsibility for raising their children, this will only get worse.

To the OP: If your friend is interested in adopting two granddaughters, mine have both been shooting since they could hold a gun and started out with SAKs. I am sure they would appreciate his kind gesture as would I. I am very sorry his family did not see it as such.

 

[fatheadhill]

It's simple really. It's easier to not allow knives than it is to teach proper responsibility.

The constant need to protect people from EVERYTHING has left an entire generation weak and naive.

+1., this was exactly my thought upon reading this story.

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

I have to say, I laughed all the way through your post. You don't know me or my Dad, so your post was almost hilarious.

My father is a rough, mean SOB, and damned proud of it. He never wanted to be anyone's friend, and doesn't have any to this day. He is just fine with that. In his opinion, most people are worth a crap to begin with, and if you are under 60 or haven't gone and fought in a war, you don't merit his attention.

He takes no responsibility for his grandkids NOR DOES HE WANT ANY. He explained it to me and my sisters this way: you guys are the ones that had them. Enjoy your kids - I already raised mine.

This is the same guy that kicked me out when I was 20, and told me not to come back. Hell, he didn't even talk to me for about 6 - 7 years or so. He didn't see any reason to!

He doesn't see much of his grandkids, and he likes it that way. Too noisy, too distracting, riles up my Mom (who loves all kids) and too much responsibility for a group of brats.

Here's the funny part about your trite little sanctimonious post: When I asked him my question, he thought about if for a minute, THEN LAUGHED. He got a charge out of having the situation put in terms he could relate to. He admitted that he wouldn't have listened to anyone, period. He actually understood then, and let the whole thing drop.

Dear old Dad isn't some little milksop. He is old school German all the way, raised without a father during The Depression. At 82, he is still as rough as a cob.

Thanks for the levity. I'm still chuckling. He would too if he read the part about how he should have whipped my ass. I am sure he would agree, just on principle.

Robert

AllenC, Looks to me by reading midnight flyers post, he didn't have as good of a childhood as he deserved. As every child deserves. And when someone you see every day or live with suppresses your childhood spirit by being a d*ck to you and the ones around you, you can't help but carry that into adult hood.


midnight flyer, You sound like a good person and a good father. I can tell it bothers you that he doesn't want to be close to his grand kids. Its a tuff pill to swallow. I know. My father just doesn't call or anything. He is nice and all, but that doesn't make it any easier. If he were jerk it probably would make it easier. Its just my kids have never met him. Probably never will.

All I know is being raised by my grandparents made me the person I am today and I will pass that on to my kids. My grandfather was born here shortly after his parents came to the US from Germany. He died 7 years ago at the age of 96. He was tuff as nails but new how to be human. Love, respect and honesty were the corner stones of his beliefs. They should be everyones!

 

[AbnInfantry]

While there are some examples of folks as young as 12 years of age doing remarkable deeds, it is by far the exception rather than the norm.

Wrong. From adolescent Mongol, Jurchen and Khitan warriors who helped their tribes conquer China to 14- to 16-year-old Americans who lied about their age and enlisted in the military during WWI or WWII, your "some examples" notion is incorrect. When David Farragut was accepted as a USN midshipman at age nine, he was not an "exception." During the 18th and 19th centuries, the U.S. and British navies "willingly" appointed youths as midshipmen at ages common to today's elementary and junior high school students. The "norm" (not the "exception") was these young men (or "boys" as you prefer to call them) performed well, supervised adults two to four times their age, fought in combat, and no one then thought such behavior was "remarkable."

The historical "norm" is that adolescents have routinely possessed and used knives, even swords, at ages which modern loons would have them expelled from schools and even arrested and imprisoned without any violent or criminal intent on their part.

I don't think that any commander would willingly choose a platoon of 12 year olds over a platoon of 20 year olds....and for very good reason....12 year old boys are still just that; boys, not men.

The U.S. government issued orders assigning me to overseas combat duty a year before it granted me the privilege of voting. When I returned home after a year of using weapons such as M-60 machine guns, M-16A1 rifles, grenade launchers and M1911A1 pistols in Vietnam, that same government (thanks to despicable GCA-68's age restrictions) refused to allow me to purchase a handgun or even ammunition for my .22 rifle. In the opinion of legislators, I was old enough to be issued a pistol and automatic weapons for the purpose of killing total strangers on the other side of the world, but not to buy a handgun for personal protection or .22 rimfire ammunition for plinking and squirrel hunting.

It may comfort you to know it was an adult captain (and USMA graduate) who admonished me for carrying a Gerber Mark II knife (a "dangerous weapon") attached to my LBE in Vietnam yet didn't have a problem with my M-60 machine gun or .45 pistol. As an irresponsible teenager, I held the peculiar notions that autoloading firearms possessed greater lethality than a knife and that humans, not inanimate objects, are "dangerous."

As a former Infantry platoon leader and company commander (in the 4th Bn., 23d Infantry), I would rather lead a platoon of competent adolescents than any unit of ostensible adults so cognitively- and ethically-impaired they would seek to arbitrarily deny any reasonably bright young man or woman the ability to merely possess a pocketknife, let alone abrogate his or her unalienable individual right of self-defense. There may be a good reason why 17- and 18-year old Americans are encouraged to enlist in the armed forces and risk their lives in combat three to four years before they're "allowed" to buy a pistol or drink a beer but, offhand, I can't think what it might be.

While you may believe otherwise, I'm convinced the 12 year-old David Farragut who served gallantly in combat and commanded a prize vessel on a long, arduous cruise (and faced down the adult British captain who threatened him) was more of a "man" than contemporary Americans who regard such stalwart young men as "just boys" incapable of maturity, courage and sound judgment.

 

[Sep]

When it comes to fighting with firearms, kids can be as much an effective fighting force as adults. History has proven this, and even today all sorts of armed factions in Africa use kids as soldiers. The issue is not whether or not they're effective killing machines; it's whether or not they can be trusted to be humane and not be mere killing machines. IMHO they make for very good soldiers because they WILL follow your orders to the T.

When you think of maturity, you need to take into account that the level of maturity of kids today is not necessarily comparable to kids of yesterday, especially since today most of them grow up in an environment that doesn't require much responsibility. A 12-year old growing up in a remote farm has learned (and taught) to be independent and responsible for a lot of potentially dangerous tasks. The same can't be said for a 12-year old city kid, who is probably not even trusted to go to the supermarket all by himself.

 

[skimmerhorn]

at least there ar some of us left!

 

[skimmerhorn]

i was hunting birds and small game at 11 with a twelve gauge by my poor little self. hunting deer with a 30-30 winchester at age 12 and driving myself to hunt and fish at locations within 20 mi of my home at age twelve. all by our poor little helpless self's!! with my 11 and 12 year old partners in crime. we all carried knives to school in elementary, jr high, high school, and through today. you had to carve your name in the desk you set in, along with the sweetheart of the week!
have you stood back and looked at yourselves? our boy's and their fathers are ostensibly little children!! i was carrying a knife in my pocket at 4 or 5. an' old barlow.(sure wish i still had it). given knives by family friends when i was 5.
mr. wolfjohn--what has happened--i'm only 37! alot of the familys i grew up with are still free and independent.there is still hope!!

 

[AbnInfantry]

When you think of maturity, you need to take into account that the level of maturity of kids today is not necessarily comparable to kids of yesterday

Assuming for the sake of discussion that's true, whose fault is it? Oh, I remember; alleged adults who seek a cradle-to-grave nanny state and would be terrified to live in a genuinely free country.

especially since today most of them grow up in an environment that doesn't require much responsibility.

Who is responsible for the "environment" you mentioned? I submit it's ignorant, amoral adults who are so domesticated they might as well give milk.

A 12-year old growing up in a remote farm has learned (and taught) to be independent and responsible for a lot of potentially dangerous tasks. The same can't be said for a 12-year old city kid, who is probably not even trusted to go to the supermarket all by himself.

I was a "city kid" raised in California. I carried a pocketknife on a daily basis from the fourth grade through graduate school. By age nine, I was carrying a WWII USN-issue sheath knife while hiking (which came in very handy on occasion). My parents were raised on farms in west Texas. My mother was afraid of firearms. After getting married, my father never owned a firearm and his interest in knives extended only to his Case pocketknife. My sister-in-law grew up on a farm in South Dakota. She's terrified of guns and knives; she pitched a hissy fit when I recently gave her husband, an electrician, a Kershaw Blur. I also made trips to grocery stores and supermarkets then back home in one piece, alone, well before age 12. Perhaps I was precocious.

One of the few advantages of being an "old man" is that I was mostly raised in the Good Old Days (pre-GCA-68) when, even in California, an adolescent could walk into a sporting goods store, fork over $40 or so, then walk out with a Remington bolt-action .22 rifle, cleaning kit, soft case and a box of ammo ... as I did at age 14. No background investigation. No waiting period. No begging permission from a government bureaucrat before exercising an unalienable right every human being is born with. No paperwork other than a cash register receipt. [...sigh...] I bought my first pocketknife in a hardware store at age eight; no questions asked.

Every Thursday night during my freshman year of high school, I'd walk halfway across town carrying my .22 rifle to shoot at the local police department's basement range. A young man who tried that today in the same city wouldn't make two blocks before the SWAT team arrived and he'd be fortunate to survive the encounter. Somehow we muddled through without SWAT teams back then.

Speaking of independent, responsible farm kids, my wife grew up on a farm which raised livestock, including pigs. A decade ago while driving on I-29 between Sioux City, IA and Sioux Falls, SD, my wife said, "Look at the sheep!"

Glancing around, I asked, "What sheep?"

"Right there, in the back of that truck ahead of us."

"Oh, right ... In California, we call that type of 'sheep' hogs." It wasn't until we were right up alongside them that she recognized the ... er, subtle distinctions ... between pigs and sheep.

 

[skimmerhorn]

abninfantry-the good ole' days hard to believe we are of such age difference. there was no sheriff where i grew up in the 80's and 90's, just small town folk! we take care of ourselves don't sha' know?
hard to believe your mother and sister inlaw were(are?) afraid of such things since they grew up on farms. never heard of such!
i was 'back home' last year and i'm glad to report it is still where a man is a man!
except for the occaisonal limp wrist floating around!