What is reasonable and legal?

[Silver Needle]

If 95% + of all your posts on Bladeforums are in the Survive! Knife forum there's no chance of an open minded, unbiased opinion. They're the only ones defending the companies behavior and their defense makes no sense.

Really?

^ Perfectly stated! :thumbup:

Really???
Is that how it is over here? I was hoping I could explain some things since those of us who have followed the company and spend time in the SURVIVE! forum know quite a bit about the company, but it looks like that makes me unqualified. So... I'm done here?

It would be interesting, if someone here would research the BladeForum archives, & compile a list of every single GBU thread involving a maker who took money upfront, got in over their head, then subsequently failed to deliver. There are a couple of active thread's currently being discussed with no resolve this very moment:

Nocturnal Knives
Dustin Turpin

^ Why should Survive! Knives, be granted an exemption from using this common sense logic?

This is actually pretty helpful to have specific examples. I'm going to look into these two companies and see what can be learned.

As to your statement in bold: not even the "fanboys" are going to excuse a two year wait. Did somebody say a two year wait was ok and I missed it? Nobody will tell you a wait time that long is acceptable and that you should give all your money to SURVIVE! if you aren't comfortable with it. I believe it still comes down this:
If you are comfortable with such a model, place your order. If not, then don't. On the fence? Wait and see.

What are you really looking to get out of this thread? Previous questions have been answered, but that doesn't seem good enough. If the questions in your latest post get answered, then what? It seems like you want the answers not just for the answers, but to use the information to condemn the company. If SURVIVE! came back here and posted to state that they don't know what they're doing and they shouldn't have started the company in the first place, who cares? Everyone already knows where they stand and I don't see that changing.

Like I said before, this has ALL been discussed MANY times over the last five years. I really don't see how the latest discussion will change anything for those who already love the company or those who already hate it. If you immediately dismiss anyone involved with the company and don't even care to hear from employees themselves, who are you expecting answers from? Too bad I couldn't help. Good luck, guys.

 

[mlmcasual]

Really?




As to your statement in bold: not even the "fanboys" are going to excuse a two year wait. Did somebody say a two year wait was ok and I missed it? Nobody will tell you a wait time that long is acceptable and that you should give all your money to SURVIVE! if you aren't comfortable with it. I believe it still comes down this:
If you are comfortable with such a model, place your order. If not, then don't. On the fence? Wait and see.

.

Regarding what's "acceptable" by SK! fans.
Lets call it for what it is.. Yes many SK! fans DO accept it.. and accept it gleefully.

The two+ year wait time was brought up by me over at SK's thread long ago based on past and current lead time data. I WILL be at two+ years NO DOUBT on my 7/7 alone and this is peanuts compared to someone with a gso10 facing eight models ahead in que. There are numerous SK! fans since then that posted they Don't worry or care about the lead-times Indefinite. In fact, Many fans announce with glee prebuying the latest and greatest model preorder thrown onto the nin model back-ordered heap. Which is fine It's their money and prerogative.. but they DID in fact find this "acceptable" because they did it and did it knowing about the 2+ year lead-times
I don't mean to be a jerk by arguing semantics, but I feel it does matter in the case of "acceptable" and "unacceptable".. if you do something knowing full well the risks/leatimes.. yes.. in fact you DO find it "acceptable" because you did it!
In fact, there IS a
"GSO 20 request thread" 15 page thread of SK! fans wanted to see a ANOTHER and NEW model piled onto the backlog list... a 20" blade inquiry.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1339628-GSO-20-request-thread/page14
and plenty of comments "I'm definitely down for a GSO-20." So yes, not only are there SK! fans that find it acceptable, they want to add even MORE models to the backlog and have said Sign me up!



So yea.. i would say plenty of SK! fans "accept" 2+ years, indefinite to never lead times.. which is fine, it's their right.. but it should be pointed out for what it is my friend. They most certainly have a customer fan base that "accepts" it. Which is why SK is still in business.

 

[KELAMA]

What are you really looking to get out of this thread?

^ Maybe you should be asking yourself this same question.

As for me: I'm just following this thread, objectively observing & discussing the very atypical business model being used by this company. This is exactly what the purpose of the GBU sub-forum is here for. There is no need to be getting all worked up & agro over a simple discussion. I'm certainly not.

The pay up front requirement implemented by Survive! Knives is unacceptable. A majority of the prudent member's here, are able to grasp this fact.

 

[Silver Needle]

Regarding what's "acceptable" by SK! fans.
Lets call it for what it is.. Yes many SK! fans DO accept it.. and accept it gleefully.


The two+ year wait time was brought up by me over at SK's thread long ago based on past and current lead time data. I WILL be at two+ years NO DOUBT on my 7/7 alone and this is peanuts compared to someone with a gso10 facing eight models ahead in que. There are numerous SK! fans since then that posted they Don't worry or care about the lead-times Indefinite. In fact, Many fans announce with glee prebuying the latest and greatest model preorder thrown onto the nin model back-ordered heap. Which is fine It's their money and prerogative.. but they DID in fact find this "acceptable" because they did it and did it knowing about the 2+ year lead-times
I don't mean to be a jerk by arguing semantics, but I feel it does matter in the case of "acceptable" and "unacceptable".. if you do something knowing full well the risks/leatimes.. yes.. in fact you DO find it "acceptable" because you did it!

There are ZERO threads over at SK! forums complaining about lead-times. But there IS a
"GSO 20 request thread" 15 page thread of SK! fans wanted to see a ANOTHER and NEW model piled onto the backlog list... a 20" blade inquiry.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1339628-GSO-20-request-thread/page14

and plenty of comments "I'm definitely down for a GSO-20." So yes, not only are there SK! fans that find it acceptable, they want to add even MORE models to the backlog and have said Sign me up! There is not one thread complaining about the 4.7 lead-times.. (the on that had a few being sarcastic got locked by SK!) but there is a "let me count the ways I love thee O survive" suck up thread started solely as a response to counteract the SK criticisms in this thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1399219-Survive!-Appreciation

So yea.. i would say plenty of SK! fans are simply not concerned or worried about indefinite to never lead times.. which is fine, it's their right.. but it should be pointed out for what it is my friend. They most certainly "accept" it.

You're right. I didn't think of it that way. What I was trying to say is that nobody will say: "a two or more year wait is perfect for everyone, and nobody has any right to question the lead times". I just keep going back to craytab's quote I mentioned before and also the realization that SURVIVE! has come to: they can't please everyone. This thread represents those who are unhappy. The thousands of orders that are not being asked to be refunded represent those who accept the wait for THEMSELVES.

Are you really surprised there are praise-filled threads in the S! forum? That's where people go to discuss the brand they like and we try to keep the discussion positive. The same thing happens in all the other manufacturer forums that I've been a part of.

 

[mlmcasual]

Regarding "Fanboyism"... I haven't participated in that back/forth accusation on this thread as I don't want to be caught up in mudslinging..but I will note..
Over at SK! forums, there is not one thread complaining about the 4.7 lead-times.. (the on that had a few being sarcastic got locked by SK!) but there is a "let me count the ways I love thee O survive" suck up thread put up as an "offering" by the SK! fans to the SK! gods.. (Ok, im being scarcastic but you get my point)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1399219-Survive!-Appreciation

My point is, there is a difference between a fan and a fanboy.. A fan is admiration, appreciation, but done as a mature give-take relationship.. a fanboy is admiration, appreciation but a very lopsided worshiping ceding all objectivity, rights to criticize and feeling compelled to "white knight" at any perceived criticism. A fanboy will not call out legitimate grievances and instead downplay them.. and will be ready to go out and white knight for anyone criticizing the object of their idol.

So I will leave it up to you and others here to decide if (some) have seemed to follow one trend or another.. I am an SK fan so I recuse myself from judgement.. but I wonder what someone completely on the outside with no dog in this fight would say? Has there been fanboyism by some in this thread? are there SK "fanboys"? Does it even matter? Well, I suppose to a point as far the old saying "consider the source" when heading advice.

 

[Casinostocks]

MLM, I had stated that I was done posting on here and I am not interested in interacting with anyone else BUT you regarding the issues which you have raised and wondered about. I really do not wish to lambast you or outcast you for your right to be dissatisfied with certain aspects of S!K and I can assure you that there are also some other people who are reaching those limits of becoming fed up with the constant delays and the seemingly broken down process. As to whether these other folks become vocal in future in the same manner as you have, or as to whether they will just deal with their dissatisfaction internally; I can almost assure you that their reticence is not a sign of approval or condoning of a broken process.

That said, you definitely know better than some of the GB&U activist types that the 20 pages or so of threads in the Survive! subform is not an infestation of rabid fanboys just stroking themselves to nirvana! With the exception of a few very jubilant and "fantasy" based wishlist threads, there's a wealth of great information exchanged in between first and foremost knife enthusiasts that IMHO benefit the well knowledgeable, the novice and anyone in between. I can only guess that this sort of camaraderie is a common denominator within all active and buoyant subforums within BFs. I think to put the onus of blind followership on everyone who participates on there and tagging everyone with derisive labels is just wrong.

Again, I don't care who you are and what wealth of sage advice you think that you are bringing into this conversation, but if the first three letters of your moniker do not start with MLM, you are wasting your time responding to this and I don't even wish to solicit MLM's response! Just wanted to highlight a factual common theme within most subforums.

 

[sheathmaker]

Okay, I am not a fan or a fanboy of nearly any maker. Out of curiosity, I have checked the Survive! web site to see what all the furor is about, and what I see are perfectly ordinary looking knives. I do not see any especially out of the ordinary fit and finish although they do look neat and well done. The styling and patterns are pretty much run of the mill, in my opinion. Pricing seems reasonable if that's the type knife you are looking for.

I certainly would not be moved to pay any amount in advance for one of these knives, nor would I stand still for a wait of any significant time. There are just too many makers out there doing similar work of similar quality to invest money in advance and then wait an extended period of delivery.

I wish Survive! well, but I really don't see this business model as the paved road to success.

All of the above is my PERSONAL opinion and not intended to sway ANYONE one way or the other.

Paul

 

[mlmcasual]

MLM, I had stated that I was done posting on here and I am not interested in interacting with anyone else BUT you regarding the issues which you have raised and wondered about. I really do not wish to lambast you or outcast you for your right to be dissatisfied with certain aspects of S!K and I can assure you that there are also some other people who are reaching those limits of becoming fed up with the constant delays and the seemingly broken down process. As to whether these other folks become vocal in future in the same manner as you have, or as to whether they will just deal with their dissatisfaction internally; I can almost assure you that their reticence is not a sign of approval or condoning of a broken process.

That said, you definitely know better than some of the GB&U activist types that the 20 pages or so of threads in the Survive! subform is not an infestation of rabid fanboys just stroking themselves to nirvana! With the exception of a few very jubilant and "fantasy" based wishlist threads, there's a wealth of great information exchanged in between first and foremost knife enthusiasts that IMHO benefit the well knowledgeable, the novice and anyone in between. I can only guess that this sort of camaraderie is a common denominator within all active and buoyant subforums within BFs. I think to put the onus of blind followership on everyone who participates on there and tagging everyone with derisive labels is just wrong.

Again, I don't care who you are and what wealth of sage advice you think that you are bringing into this conversation, but if the first three letters of your moniker do not start with MLM, you are wasting your time responding to this and I don't even wish to solicit MLM's response! Just wanted to highlight a factual common theme within most subforums.

Come on now, I am a huge SK fan and even I chuckled at the let me count the ways I love thee love thread. And hey, I have been guilty so I'll call myself out. But they do make a darn nice product!
I don't want to sucked into a whole who is, who isn't a fanboy debate it's just becomes mudslinging. Not all SK! customers are "fanboys", of course not. And I will say YOU casinostocks are not even CLOSE to being an SK! fanboy in comparison to others.. To your credit, you are IMO open to reality and weighing. That's just my personal opinion.

 

[Casinostocks]

Okay, I am not a fan or a fanboy of nearly any maker. Out of curiosity, I have checked the Survive! web site to see what all the furor is about, and what I see are perfectly ordinary looking knives. I do not see any especially out of the ordinary fit and finish although they do look neat and well done. The styling and patterns are pretty much run of the mill, in my opinion. Pricing seems reasonable if that's the type knife you are looking for.

I certainly would not be moved to pay any amount in advance for one of these knives, nor would I stand still for a wait of any significant time. There are just too many makers out there doing similar work of similar quality to invest money in advance and then wait an extended period of delivery.

I wish Survive! well, but I really don't see this business model as the paved road to success.

All of the above is my PERSONAL opinion and not intended to sway ANYONE one way or the other.

Paul

Your assessment is very fair and unbiased. I don't see a hidden agenda in what you have factually stated and now I feel that I'm being dragged into this but felt obliged to respond to you: Personally speaking, I did not know the difference between Survive! Knives and I Will Survive by Gloria Gaynor till this Feb 2016. It was only because of my dissatisfaction with a few production knives which I had bought on Amazon (DPX, ESEE, Fallkniven, LionSteel, TOPS brands to name a few but not wishing to whip up a fuss among their enthusiasts) that through my travels in the land of YouTube, I came across the name SURVIVE! Knives the very first time when I watched some English Lady who was talking very highly of this brand and had specifically stated that they were very hard to get hold of. This sounded like a challenge to me and it really piqued my interest so I started doing a keyword search on YT and also on Google which lead me on multiple occasions to BFs which I joined.

I was in search of top quality steel with the kind of fit and finish which I would find aesthetically pleasing according to my own tastes within a certain price criteria. At that time, the thought of spending $250 on a field knife was a cringeworthy thought to me, but I quickly learned about the difference between steel material and the fact that this guy, Guy; was offering a great product at reasonable prices. I just didn't know how hard they were to come by so I started seeking them on eBay and I was outbid every single time because obviously I was not a very strong bidder at the time. Now it has become a hobby to me and I buy / sell / trade this brand without any admission of guilt or any shame. I simply enjoy this. having met many, many great folks on that subform also opened the door to me to find another GREAT maker whom I have the pleasure and the great fortune to buy a couple of units from. I currently have a couple of preorders places with Survive! but because I specifically prefer the older S!K products to the newer ones, I will not be adding to my current position and at the same time, i will not be bailing out of those either, whether it takes 2 years or never. This is my decision and my prerogative, no matter how absurd and illogical.

All the background info said, I have been paying a premium in the secondary market acquiring S!K products as compared to what I have preordered and the ones which I snagged during their infrequent Mondays sales. My first wish would be for Survive! to streamline their process and procedures to benefit directly from this customer's dispensable hobby funds but in their lack of, owners who wish to sell off theirs for an extra premium (for the right price, model and condition) have a solid interest from me. This will probably last even if Survive! fails to survive in business. You decide to call this some batsh*t crazy fanboy's sick mindset, a testament to a very well made product or anywhere in between. I don't really care.

 

[mlmcasual]

You are not a fanboy.. not by my idea of what a "fanyboy" is at least. There have been others that don't "need" to be labeled.. their words speak for themselves... ie..

"What is frustrating, is all the people who aren't willing to take the risk who seem hell bent on convincing everyone else they are stupid. How should one NOT take that personally? How is that NOT disrespectful."

Right off the bat, white knighting.. felt disrespected and personally attacked because SK's model was criticized..
or,

The team at S!K is collaborating with names like Nathan Carothers to get their heat treat next to perfection, so if you know little to nothing about knives it would be wise to post little to nothing.

A complete left field straw man diversion that goes on to judge who is worthy to post..

It's demagoguery like that I can see where the fanyboy flag gets thrown on the field.. In fairness, I can see where some strong blanket statements would really irritate SK! fans..
All that said, I have already overstepped my place. And don't want to concern about "labels".. Words and actions and facts speak for us all and we can all judge without the needs for labeling individuals. It is Fair to label ideologies and call out demagoguery and do it in a way that avoids labeling individuals.

 

[TsarBomba]

I do hope you're wrong about the eventual fall of SURVIVE!

And I think here, once you get past all the things that are getting people's blood up, is something we can all agree on.

The main bone of contention in this thread is whether or not it's feasible to think that the fall is not imminent. What I hope and what I believe may be two separate things (thought I've been accused of excess cynicism once or twice in my life, so YMMV).

I am starting to eyeball the site for those Monday sales of seconds but from what I've read they're harder to get than a GEC short run in mammoth.

 

[TsarBomba]

You're right. I didn't think of it that way. What I was trying to say is that nobody will say: "a two or more year wait is perfect for everyone, and nobody has any right to question the lead times". I just keep going back to craytab's quote I mentioned before and also the realization that SURVIVE! has come to: they can't please everyone. This thread represents those who are unhappy. The thousands of orders that are not being asked to be refunded represent those who accept the wait for THEMSELVES

This seems to be where the communication breaks down.

This thread is not "S!K fans on one side, haters on the other." Only the actual fanboys being criticized could even attempt to rationalize the thread in that fashion. This is a large group of people -- who do more than just patronize a manufacturer's subforum mainly to the exclusion of all others -- being exposed to S!K's business practices and expressing what seems to me to be a perfectly normal and natural "WTF?!?" reaction.

We don't tolerate politics in most of the subforums here because they often break down to false dichotomies, the "us vs. them" dynamic seen in almost every major political argument in existence. Let's not do the same thing to an actual knife discussion, eh?

 

[mlmcasual]

And I think here, once you get past all the things that are getting people's blood up, is something we can all agree on.

The main bone of contention in this thread is whether or not it's feasible to think that the fall is not imminent. What I hope and what I believe may be two separate things (thought I've been accused of excess cynicism once or twice in my life, so YMMV).

I am starting to eyeball the site for those Monday sales of seconds but from what I've read they're harder to get than a GEC short run in mammoth.

Yes.. the Monday sale which BTW hasn't even been going on now for some time I felt needed to be clarified for what it is.. It is not a simple alternative to the Preorders.. I just felt that would be vastly overstating the monday orders.. THe monday sales historically are just a handfull of 2nd's scratch/dents that occasionaly (hasn't happened in awhile) go up on Mondays.. But I called it a "lottery" when I meant to say they have "lottery like" odds of landing the model you want and are so sparse. The 3v models would sell out in literally seconds.
The monday sales are "B" stock table scraps thrown out to the public and not every monday.. BTW, I was fortunate enough to land a 4.7 but took some work and luck

 

[mlmcasual]

Okay, I am not a fan or a fanboy of nearly any maker. Out of curiosity, I have checked the Survive! web site to see what all the furor is about, and what I see are perfectly ordinary looking knives. I do not see any especially out of the ordinary fit and finish although they do look neat and well done. The styling and patterns are pretty much run of the mill, in my opinion. Pricing seems reasonable if that's the type knife you are looking for.

I certainly would not be moved to pay any amount in advance for one of these knives, nor would I stand still for a wait of any significant time. There are just too many makers out there doing similar work of similar quality to invest money in advance and then wait an extended period of delivery.

I wish Survive! well, but I really don't see this business model as the paved road to success.

All of the above is my PERSONAL opinion and not intended to sway ANYONE one way or the other.

Paul

Thank you Paul .. It's great to have an experienced craftsman in the field weigh in on the topic. Appreciate it.

 

[craytab]

My point exactly. The only results are the ones we have now. They are perfectly available for all to see. Future results can only come in the future. Not anything else to debate right now really.

Seems like the OP has been answered. If you are comfortable with such a model, place your order. If not, then don't. On the fence? Wait and see.

Nailed it :thumbup:

I thought I solved this days ago. Why are you guys still bickering? All that is happening now is speculation and people getting their feelings hurt. Or........we could just wait and see what happens.

 

[Silver Needle]

I quote your post areas:

Survive! Knives: 135
FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!: 4

Can you make a valid argument as to why we should not consider your post an exceedingly late "pile-on"?

I've explained over the span of days and in response to multiple posters why this is a valid discussion, and how the concern of knife users and hobbyists might in fact be rooted in a situation which is precarious at best and destined to fail at worst. It is unrealistic and short-sighted to demand that participants have a "dog in this fight", especially when there's nothing especially unique about the products we are discussing here.

So let me restate your lead sentence back to you, and we'll see how you like it:

"If people who are concerned about S!K's long-term viability would just let blind S!K fanboys dump all over them in a clusterchuck of bile and vitriol without protesting this would all be over soon."

See? Nothing gets solved. It's just childish rhetoric that serves to obscure the problem instead of highlight and potentially mitigate it.

This seems to be the mantra "supporters" (we're not allowed to say "fanboys", I guess -- issues with calling a spade a spade) are flocking to this subforum in droves to repeat.

Why are you folks so hell-bent on berating the discussion itself? Clearly there's a problem. This "love it or leave it" attitude is invalid when it comes to politics and it's invalid when it comes to business, even in a purely capitalistic society (which this is not).

How about having an argument and making it instead of trying to bury the whole thing and force everyone to wear blinders?

Five years. The way some of these apologetics read, you'd think they've been competing with Buck since the days of yore.

This seems to be where the communication breaks down.

This thread is not "S!K fans on one side, haters on the other." Only the actual fanboys being criticized could even attempt to rationalize the thread in that fashion. This is a large group of people -- who do more than just patronize a manufacturer's subforum mainly to the exclusion of all others -- being exposed to S!K's business practices and expressing what seems to me to be a perfectly normal and natural "WTF?!?" reaction.

We don't tolerate politics in most of the subforums here because they often break down to false dichotomies, the "us vs. them" dynamic seen in almost every major political argument in existence. Let's not do the same thing to an actual knife discussion, eh?

Your last post seems to contradict your other posts.

 

[Silver Needle]

Yes.. the Monday sale which BTW hasn't even been going on now for some time I felt needed to be clarified for what it is.. It is not a simple alternative to the Preorders.. I just felt that would be vastly overstating the monday orders.. THe monday sales historically are just a handfull of 2nd's scratch/dents that occasionaly (hasn't happened in awhile) go up on Mondays.. But I called it a "lottery" when I meant to say they have "lottery like" odds of landing the model you want and are so sparse. The 3v models would sell out in literally seconds.
The monday sales are "B" stock table scraps thrown out to the public and not every monday.. BTW, I was fortunate enough to land a 4.7 but took some work and luck

That's really how you view the Monday sales and the factory seconds? I thought you had been around long enough to know better.

 

[TsarBomba]

Your last post seems to contradict your other posts.

Only to someone who thinks that pointing out a massive inequity in forums posted to (and that word may not even be striking enough to get across the vast variances in posting we've seen among many posters in this thread)is "dirty pool" after seeing an influx of supporters following the same script suddenly appear out of nowhere.

Only to someone who thinks censoring any criticism of their favorite knife maker, or outright squashing the debate itself, is a legitimate response to valid questions about business practices in a reviews subforum of a knife forum.

Only to someone who thinks that flowery rhetoric and vague assertions of long-standing success (when a company's history barely spans five years) are legitimate argumentation.

Perhaps you still fail to understand my ultimate point: We're here to discuss the knives and the manufacturers, not what we perceive as the intentions of other posters.

 

[Silver Needle]

Perhaps you still fail to understand my ultimate point: We're here to discuss the knives and the manufacturers, not what we perceive as the intentions of other posters.

Did you read the posts of yours that I quoted? You are the one that seems to be concerned with who is posting here and how their post count affects the potency of their comments.

Who am I trying to censor? Craytab's quote that I keep coming back to is that we all have the right to think what we want. We can all continue the discussion as long as we want. I just don't believe anything is going to change what we already think as individuals.

Now... if you buy a SURVIVE! knife, do not buy a SURVIVE! knife or ask for a refund on a SURVIVE! knife... now that could bring about some change.

 

[Skystorm]

I think it is interesting that a 16 page discussion about a specific company isn't worthy enough of attention of that company other than a couple of the typical canned defense excuses about perfection that have been handed out again and again over their long and industrious 'history'. Your running a 'Craft Company' well your 'Investors' want results, not recycled excuses. Perhaps because they can't control the thread since it is out of their subforum and isn't gushing with praise? A common them among makers that start getting in trouble is that they like to foist the comms onto someone else and just work. This tired excuse of were slow because we demand perfection is quite simply ridiculous. I currently have seven sk products, They are all great knives but not a single one of them is perfect in fit and finish nor will they split atoms with their out of the box sharpness as some would have you believe. It is more a of a placebo effect than anything else.