What is reasonable and legal?

[Skystorm]

Actually I do know people in the area who could, I grew up in Sandpoint. I do not believe in the long term viability of sk so I couldn't very well turn them on to a job I don't think would last.

Do you know machinists in Kellogg, ID - or surrounding area? Or elsewhere who will move to ID? Maybe you do - I really don't know anything about you but I'm guessing you have a lot more years in the industry and probably have quite a few more contacts than they do. I think you're genuinely bringing up concerns with no malicious intent toward the people themselves. In all seriousness, if you do know competent machinists (or perhaps shops with valid candidate pools) who would put up with what I perceive to be an OCD level of commitment to quality and the finished product I really think you should turn them on to Survive. Not trying to be facetious at all - I think everyone here agrees that they could use the help.

That's obviously not your problem or responsibility, but you seem pretty active here and I make my suggestions from being a supporter of the company and people and just looking to help.

Miller does great work. I do not have a problem with prepayment, in most cases I prefer to prepay and get it out of the way. Prepay with no ballpark eta or years before they get around to it? No thanks. There isn't a knife made that I would wait years for.

It seems they also understand their responsibility to their customers.


'Thanks to all our customers and followers. Our order books are now closed.
Due to the volume of orders we have received, we are not taking orders for
Standard models or Customs at this time.
We do not want to extend our wait time any longer.
We will be finishing existing orders before taking any new orders.'


I doubt sk could close their books even if they wanted to. That they won't and have years of work ahead just to clear out their current backlog is a giant red flag.

Here's a question I hesitated to ask, but this might be the best place for it...

Does anyone know much about the business practices of Miller Bros.? They're also a 3 person operation with popular knives and high standards. They are a fully custom company, but there seems to be enough similarities to compare.

They also ask for full payment upfront, but when I was quoted an 18-20 week wait, I got my knife in the 17th week. They are stable enough to close their books when their back log grows too long. Can something be learned here?

 

[Silver Needle]

They take money up front but that's where the similarity to SK! end..

* MB makes CUSTOM BY HAND all in-house with No machining much MUCH more labor intensive and handmade then SK!
* MB Gives customers a lead time quote (SK does not).. and MB delivers on those quotes with stabilized regularity..
* MB CLOSES the books when Lead-Times get to long.. SK! does not.. SK! leaves "the books" open on preorders even when lead times are looking to run in the years.

Is it really as simple as that? Just closing the books earlier? I'm sure SURVIVE! would love to be in a similar place as Miller Bros. How did they end up in such different situations? Does S! have higher demand than Miller Bros.?
I would think the fully hand made aspect would work way into S!'s favor as far as output. I wonder if growing slower made such a difference for Miller Bros.

Now I have a VERY important question for this Thread ...

Does SK! allow/honor Refunds for knives that "are in production".. Ie, the 7/7?

There has been a recent large jump in the "in production" lineup" so this is a very important question.. Anyone know?

I can't speak for SURVIVE! but I don't see why not. I would think an extra blade would easily get sold on a Monday.

 

[Silver Needle]

I doubt sk could close their books even if they wanted to. That they won't and have years of work ahead just to clear out their current backlog is a giant red flag.

As a small business owner is making the cutoff and turning away customers part of longevity?

The folks at SURIVIVE! are people pleasers and despite the concerns brought up in this thread there remains a huge demand. After models go into production and the ordering closes, they continue to get requests for people wanting to place an order.

If they were to cease all preordering today and were able to get by with just Monday sales, would there be a way out of their backlog or are they beyond help?

 

[mlmcasual]

Is it really as simple as that? Just closing the books earlier? I'm sure SURVIVE! would love to be in a similar place as Miller Bros. How did they end up in such different situations? Does S! have higher demand than Miller Bros.?
I would think the fully hand made aspect would work way into S!'s favor as far as output. I wonder if growing slower made such a difference for Miller Bros.



I can't speak for SURVIVE! but I don't see why not. I would think an extra blade would easily get sold on a Monday.

Miller brothers was able to close it's books because it doesn't do the so called "kick starter" model that SK uses. MB buy and keeps it's materials on hand.

SK! got themselves in a pickle.. SK! CAN'T just close the books on the existing preorders because remember SK! hasn't bought the materials yet and needs X amount of preorders before it can buy the bulk materials. One thing I would find unacceptable at this point would be for SK to introduce any MORE Preorder models that would grow it's existing NINE model's in waiting. IF SK! was to introduce even one more preorder model before finishing up the 4.7 it would be BEYOND a red flag and you would have a clear undeniable evidence of an intentional ponzi scheme. Remember when they talked about "slipping in" a 5.1 run that starting sounding off some huge alarm bells to even the most die-hard SK! fans.. SK! then (rightly) clarified that the 5.1 wouldn't be done until the current "in productions" were finished. Even the most diehard SK! fans know it common sense that if SK! started taking orders and "fitting in" small batch runs into existing In-production line it would be clear evidence of a Ponzi Scheme.. But that has NOT happened so no reason to freak out at this point.

 

[Silver Needle]

Miller brothers was able to close it's books because it doesn't do the so called "kick starter" model that SK uses. MB buy and keeps it's materials on hand.

SK! got themselves in a pickle.. SK! CAN'T just close the books on the existing preorders because remember SK! hasn't bought the materials yet and needs X amount of preorders before it can buy the bulk materials. One thing I would find unacceptable at this point would be for SK to introduce any MORE Preorder models that would grow it's existing NINE model's in waiting. IF SK! was to introduce even one more preorder model before finishing up the 4.7 it would be BEYOND a red flag and you would have a clear undeniable evidence of an intentional ponzi scheme. Remember when they talked about "slipping in" a 5.1 run that starting sounding off some huge alarm bells to even the most die-hard SK! fans.. SK! then (rightly) clarified that the 5.1 wouldn't be done until the current "in productions" were finished. Even the most diehard SK! fans know it common sense that if SK! started taking orders and "fitting in" small batch runs into existing In-production line it would be clear evidence of a Ponzi Scheme.. But that has NOT happened so no reason to freak out at this point.

Look at my response to Skystorm. Just for this example, let's ignore the big blades with the smallest orders that need steel to be ordered. If they could keep their machines running and afford groceries by what they make on Monday sales, could they become sustainable?

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

Actually I do know people in the area who could, I grew up in Sandpoint. I do not believe in the long term viability of sk so I couldn't very well turn them on to a job I don't think would last.
.....

Very true, point taken. But, even part time might be helpful if someone is already skilled and would need little training to come up to speed. They have a huge, obvious backlog and I'm sure could use part-time help as well as full if someone's ready to go.

If they closed the books today, I think they could get by on filling existing orders and Monday sales of 2nds and firsts (the firsts after existing orders are filled). I've never heard them say they needed to sell more pre-orders so they could keep the lights on, which i think is something that has been assumed. It very well could be true - I'm just saying I've never heard anything to indicate that it is true. So, since they've already received the money upfront, they have what they need to pay for the steel and other vendors (cutting, HT, handles, etc). Obviously costs do go up as the years go by, so that must be taken into account as others have pointed out. They are regularly selling knives on Monday sales - is that enough to keep food on the table and lights on?

Mlm mentioned the fact that they've said they need to reach certain order #s before actually ordering a run so I acknowledge that part too, but if each knife $ is kept in it's own "area" then that doesn't sound as bad - but I'm just throwing things out there, I haven't seen their books or how it's managed.

 

[mlmcasual]

Look at my response to Skystorm. Just for this example, let's ignore the big blades with the smallest orders that need steel to be ordered. If they could keep their machines running and afford groceries by what they make on Monday sales, could they become sustainable?

No..

Monday orders are normally Seconds they are getting out and just a tiny fraction of the actual Model 1rst Runs... They are a way for SK! to offload an already completed knife and get money now..
Some SK! fans felt it was unfair of SK to ship Seconds before 1rsts, but since the 2nds are already built I would side with SK! on that argument. It's not hurting anyone to get them out before the 1rsts.

 

[mlmcasual]

Very true, point taken. But, even part time might be helpful if someone is already skilled and would need little training to come up to speed. They have a huge, obvious backlog and I'm sure could use part-time help as well as full if someone's ready to go.

If they closed the books today, I think they could get by on filling existing orders and Monday sales of 2nds and firsts (the firsts after existing orders are filled). I've never heard them say they needed to sell more pre-orders so they could keep the lights on, which i think is something that has been assumed. It very well could be true - I'm just saying I've never heard anything to indicate that it is true. So, since they've already received the money upfront, they have what they need to pay for the steel and other vendors (cutting, HT, handles, etc). Obviously costs do go up as the years go by, so that must be taken into account as others have pointed out. They are regularly selling knives on Monday sales - is that enough to keep food on the table and lights on?

Mlm mentioned the fact that they've said they need to reach certain order #s before actually ordering a run so I acknowledge that part too, but if each knife $ is kept in it's own "area" then that doesn't sound as bad - but I'm just throwing things out there, I haven't seen their books or how it's managed.

Yes, as you, me and others mentioned.. SK! can't really "close the books" on thier preorders because the preorders need a certain buyin to be reached before marterial can be purchased in bulk and to justify tooling setup.
In SK!s case, the CRITICAL litmus test going forward will be to follow if any new models or "short runs" get stuck into the que that grows the current nine model backlog.. That IMO would present a huuuuuge turning point and flag on the field. But that has not happened so I have to Give SK! the benefit of doubt for now.

 

[B34NS]

Miller brothers was able to close it's books because it doesn't do the so called "kick starter" model that SK uses. MB buy and keeps it's materials on hand.

SK! got themselves in a pickle.. SK! CAN'T just close the books on the existing preorders because remember SK! hasn't bought the materials yet and needs X amount of preorders before it can buy the bulk materials. One thing I would find unacceptable at this point would be for SK to introduce any MORE Preorder models that would grow it's existing NINE model's in waiting. IF SK! was to introduce even one more preorder model before finishing up the 4.7 it would be BEYOND a red flag and you would have a clear undeniable evidence of an intentional ponzi scheme. Remember when they talked about "slipping in" a 5.1 run that starting sounding off some huge alarm bells to even the most die-hard SK! fans.. SK! then (rightly) clarified that the 5.1 wouldn't be done until the current "in productions" were finished. Even the most diehard SK! fans know it common sense that if SK! started taking orders and "fitting in" small batch runs into existing In-production line it would be clear evidence of a Ponzi Scheme.. But that has NOT happened so no reason to freak out at this point.

Google the term "ponzi scheme" before throwing it around, you are way off base here and it makes what you're trying to say very hard to take serious, if not taken as blatant trolling.

Did you refund all, one, some, or none of the starter models? What's the status of your refund? Others seem to have had luck doing so, just curious why start a thread before calling Survive? Or is this one of those threads that needs the smooth serenade of the world's smallest violin to complement the cheese and whine?

 

[Silver Needle]

No..

Monday orders are normally Seconds they are getting out and just a tiny fraction of the actual Model 1rst Runs... They are a way for SK! to offload an already completed knife and get money now..
Some SK! fans felt it was unfair of SK to ship Seconds before 1rsts, but since the 2nds are already built I would side with SK! on that argument. It's not hurting anyone to get them out before the 1rsts.

For 4.7's it has been a trickle of 4.7's on Mondays, but they did sell a lot of 5.1 firsts at the end of that run. They invested in extra materials for each model so that will give them things to sell weekly beyond what is preordered. I don't know anything about the actual numbers, but in theory that is a way to keep business moving while they (slowly) move through the back log.

As far as closing the books I think there is a difference between the most and least popular models. If they're getting enough new requests for 5.1's to entertain the idea of another preorder that is some real customer buy in. I can't speak for what needs to happen to get customers the less popular models while still making it profitable for the company.

 

[mlmcasual]

Google the term "ponzi scheme" before throwing it around, you are way off base here and it makes what you're trying to say very hard to take serious, if not taken as blatant trolling.

Did you refund all, one, some, or none of the starter models? What's the status of your refund? Others seem to have had luck doing so, just curious why start a thread before calling Survive? Or is this one of those threads that needs the smooth serenade of the world's smallest violin to complement the cheese and whine?

I wish you actually read what I wrote instead of trolling.
I wrote IF Sk was to begin introducing even more preorder models into the current nine and continue growing the backlog then yes, that would meet the very definition of Ponzi. I then said they Have NOT done this so SK! deserves the benefit of doubt.
So please Troll somewhere else.

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

Yes, as you, me and others mentioned.. SK! can't really "close the books" on thier preorders because the preorders need a certain buyin to be reached before marterial can be purchased in bulk and to justify tooling setup.
...

Which I think we're both agreeing isn't necessarily a sign of un-sustainability. I think where issues for all of us would arise (besides the obvious issue in waiting so long) is if that money isn't separate. Preorders for a GSO 8 that stay in the GSO 8 "account" through the process isn't (in my mind - i'm no business expert) necessarily a bad sign for me. If i have an 8 on order and it takes forever to start and make it through the process - that is frustrating, but it doesn't make me think i won't get it if they're just waiting for an order limit to be reached.
But, if money coming in for the 8 is being used to pay for current production or living expenses, then that definitely doesn't look good. I think that's the assumption that's been made, but I wasn't necessarily sure that was the actual case.

 

[mlmcasual]

Yea, you got it.. Robbing Peter to pay Paul might be going on between models we don't know.. but that's not unusual to shift funds around within a company .. That's why I mentioned should they suddenly start introducing NEW preorder models to the line up before getting caught up, that would be much different. That would be like creating peter to rob from peter to pay paul.

 

[B34NS]

I wish you actually read what I wrote instead of trolling.

Oh, I've been keeping up, so far lotta noise little signal.

Ellie was kind enough to take time out her day and off the production line to respond to you personally, and answered both of your initial questions in your OP way back on page 5.

a- We ask for payment upfront for 2 main reasons.
- One is because producing the knives is expensive. While we could produce them on our own, but as a young company it would take much longer to do so. Meanwhile we have customers banging down the doors asking to take their order. We want to make as many as possible, as quickly as possible.
- The second reason is because if we don't take payment up front it adds a ton of extra administration work later. That admin time would be taken away from actually fulfilling orders. We don't hold on to customers' credit card information because it is private information with a high risk. That means we would need to take that extra time to get a hold of people for their payment information, and then deal with the custom orders that need to be taken apart because someone changed their mind or doesn't have the money anymore. We prefer to be spending that time in the workshop actually getting the knives out.

b - I can't say what is or isn't legal. But before throwing out such an aggressive word, I wish you would have just asked us about refunds. In my mind, the legality doesn't matter because we have always provided refunds when they are requested. We aren't trying to hold anyone hostage here. With that said, any requests made in the past two weeks may still need processing. I have been out of town and haven’t had a chance to go through the entire inbox just yet.

Important parts highlighted in bold in case you missed them

Then on page 13 in all bold:

Now I have a VERY important question for this Thread ...

Does SK! allow/honor Refunds for knives that "are in production".. Ie, the 7/7?

There has been a recent large jump in the "in production" lineup" so this is a very important question.. Anyone know?

Why not call Survive! and ask? Then report here with how it went. Typically that's how feedback works in this forum, you're not new here.

I wrote IF Sk was to begin introducing even more preorder models into the current nine and continue growing the backlog then yes, that would meet the very definition of Ponzi. I then said they Have NOT done this so SK! deserves the benefit of doubt.

Since you obviously do not know what a ponzi scheme is, here is a simple to understand video.
[video=youtube;bnrIPr-9Lk8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnrIPr-9Lk8[/video]

So please Troll somewhere else.

I'm not the one suggesting that company that pays for a membership to be a part of this community is one production model away from being a scam.

 

[SavageSmurf]

If time where the ONLY issue there would be 1/4 as many posts here. Everyone understands there is risk with a pay up front - no guarantees or estimates of lead times. But the Risk factor went up dramatically when NOW you see Nine models to go in a one model at a time build and the current model has been in production for going on over a year. A lot can happen in 2, 3 years and longer to a one man operation while your waiting. Everyone has to weigh there own comfort level.. For example, my comfort only goes as far as my gso 7/7 model since I'm already a year in and it's two down the line.. However, the gso 10 I decided was just way to far down the line for my comfort level and I got a refund.. Really that's what all this boils down to.. everyone has to decide on their own comfort/risk level. Where the frustration level comes in, is not being able to nail down consistency in the model-to model build lead times.. so my risk evaluation has dramatically changed.

I think that's fair; every one has to do what's right for them. If you aren't comfortable with waiting, then asking for a refund is probably the best course of action. And like I said, it's unlikely I'd pay for another pre-order from them--I wouldn't want to wait for the 10 either. Plus, the 10 just doesn't really do it for me... the ergos seem wonky. Hope you get your refund for the 7/7 though, if that's what you're after.

 

[Morrow]

I'm not the one suggesting that company that pays for a membership to be a part of this community is one production model away from being a scam.

Anyone listed under the Manufacturer's Forums heading doesn't pay to be here. Manufacturer forums are provided free of charge with the only requirement being at least one company rep to mod the forum.

 

[B34NS]

Anyone listed under the Manufacturer's Forums heading doesn't pay to be here. Manufacturer forums are provided free of charge with the only requirement being at least one company rep to mod the forum.

My mistake, I lumped all the orange's into the knifemaker category you are correct sir.

My point being that a knife manufacturer that participates in this forum is taking time away from production adding further delay to which the OP complained about in the first place. Seemed like to me the advice of said company was dead on, call or email, rather than "ask the internet what to do with my money".

 

[mlmcasual]

Oh, I've been keeping up, so far lotta noise little signal.


Since you obviously do not know what a ponzi scheme is, here is a simple to understand video.
[video=youtube;bnrIPr-9Lk8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnrIPr-9Lk8[/video]
I'm not the one suggesting that company that pays for a membership to be a part of this community is one production model away from being a scam.

Asked answered, I was bringing up a separate point, not calling anyone a ponzi scheme.. you are now injecting lies and strawman arguments against me just to harass and troll.. I was saying what (WOULD) be a ponzi scheme that meets the definition of what you posted btw.. it's obvious you are here to white knight and troll.. please troll somewhere else.

@ mlmcasual -

Now, we need to tone down the stupid comments and the personal jabs, seriously. THe mods overall are sick and tired of running this forum as if it is patronized by daycare aged children. Be respectful, be mature, show some common sense and courtesy or you'll be shown the door. We have no room here for trolls and have no compunction about removing people, regardless of their membership level. This horse is starting to reek so much even the maggots are starting to gag.

Just some musings to keep things on track, if things veer any further we'll edit the posts have not contributed anything but trolling responses and write up a truck load of infractions. It's too damn hot for this silliness.

Restrict the flamewars to the Pirate's Cove or W&C.
Those forums are the only "anything goes" areas of this site, so don't let the behavior leak out. Conversely, if you don't want to be offended or insulted, stay out of there.

Restrict customer feedback to The Good, The Bad & The Ugly forum
The place to talk about good or bad customer experiences with individual sellers or dealers is in the GBU forum, not elsewhere on the site.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/faq.php?faq=faq_rules_posting#faq_faq_rules_posting_makecount

 

[colubrid]

Bail and get a refund. You've probably already waited too long to have any recourse with PayPal or a Credit Card Company

 

[B34NS]

Asked answered, I was bringing up a separate point, not calling anyone a ponzi scheme.. you are now injecting lies and strawman arguments against me just to harass and troll.. I was saying what (WOULD) be a ponzi scheme that meets the definition of what you posted btw.. it's obvious you are here to white knight and troll.. please troll somewhere else.

Yea, you got it.. Robbing Peter to pay Paul might be going on between models we don't know.. but that's not unusual to shift funds around within a company .. That's why I mentioned should they suddenly start introducing NEW preorder models to the line up before getting caught up, that would be much different. That would be like creating peter to rob from peter to pay paul.

No one else is getting your knife unless you request a refund.