What is reasonable and legal?

[TsarBomba]

Or is this one of those threads that needs the smooth serenade of the world's smallest violin to complement the cheese and whine?

You missed the call to arms by days, sir.

Next time read the thread before posting in it.

 

[B34NS]

You missed the call to arms by days, sir.

Next time read the thread before posting in it.

I understand that those who paid for a starter knife as soon as they became available have been waiting a long time, I've been in that camp. Totally get where they are coming from when it comes to delays, but they could have also waited to place the order until the last week of ordering. Their newsletter usually states where they are in the production process and cut off dates. Point being on a 7/7 one could have waited until as late as January to put money down on one.

Just another Survive! customer curious what the OP's issue was and if it had been resolved.

The violin was in reference to some who have contributed in this thread on a bigger discussion that turned a great thread in the Survive! subforum into senseless acrimonious argument forcing its closure.

 

[ElConquistador]

I just don't think this is a correct/fair/accurate post (the part i quoted). They've on numerous occasions indicated their willingness to hire (and obviously pay them). But, they've also indicated their unwillingness to just hire anyone and certainly not just "some unskilled body off the street". That's what's gotten them into trouble before - hiring people who had to be trained from scratch and ultimately weren't up to it. I also don't think I've ever seen any indication that they were unwilling to train someone, but again, like you mentioned, you can't just hire some rando or your buddy and expect it to work out. I've admittedly never worked in a machine shop but it sounds like tedious work. Is this their problem and something that needs addressed? Of course.

Do you know machinists in Kellogg, ID - or surrounding area? Or elsewhere who will move to ID? Maybe you do - I really don't know anything about you but I'm guessing you have a lot more years in the industry and probably have quite a few more contacts than they do. I think you're genuinely bringing up concerns with no malicious intent toward the people themselves. In all seriousness, if you do know competent machinists (or perhaps shops with valid candidate pools) who would put up with what I perceive to be an OCD level of commitment to quality and the finished product I really think you should turn them on to Survive. Not trying to be facetious at all - I think everyone here agrees that they could use the help.

That's obviously not your problem or responsibility, but you seem pretty active here and I make my suggestions from being a supporter of the company and people and just looking to help.

Of course they could find a skilled machinist if they wanted and were in the position to but I doubt that's the case.

If you were a professional machinist would you be willing to risk your livelihood, relocate and take a job with Survive? That would be a, "No" from me.

What does a skilled machinist make? Even in Idaho it's got to be 50k and up plus benefits. They're not looking for a skilled machinist they're looking for a laborer that they can train up. The problem with that once they get someone trained they won't be able to afford them. In effect they'll be training people for higher paying jobs.

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

Of course they could find a skilled machinist if they wanted and were in the position to but I doubt that's the case.
.....
They're not looking for a skilled machinist they're looking for a laborer that they can train up. The problem with that once they get someone trained they won't be able to afford them. In effect they'll be training people for higher paying jobs.

No offense, but you know this how? Not the train them and they go find another job part - of course that can happen anywhere. But the part about them not wanting someone who is ready to go? I can't truly argue the other side - I don't work for survive of course, but it just seems there's a lot of assumptions in there that I've never seen or heard any indication of being true. They've definitely made mention of being willing to train, but I've never heard them say anything indicating they were financially strapped and couldn't hire someone who was already skilled. I'm not saying it isn't true, I just don't feel that's a fair assumption without a basis.

But I guess that's the who point of this thread now - are they viable for the long term - do they have sustainable cash flow to pay for, well, everything they've committed to. This to me would include being able to hire and train, or higher an already trained, worked and pay them a fair competitive wage.

I know in the grand scheme of things Survive is pretty young, but I don't think it's a stretch to believe they would know what a fair wage for a machinist in their area is.

I must admit I'm a Survive fan if its not been assumed already. I'm also a Busse fan, a Benchmade/Buck/Hinderer/Brous(etc...) fan and a fan of some of our resident BF craftsmen who do amazing work. I'm obviously partial due to my affection for the knives and people. But. I'm hoping I'm objective also and I've been trying to keep up and consider the points that have been made.

I think they definitely do want to hire - the right person. And with how busy Guy is I doubt he puts a lot of time in applicant seeking. I'm sure we can all put ourselves in that position of having been burned in the past and not wanting to waste time with unqualified people (maybe not in hiring but in some similar circumstance). Days turn into weeks, weeks into months, etc. As it's been pointed out Survive is only 5 or so years old. Does that make it right from a business perspective? No, I'm not saying that. I've just been following them for a relatively long time now and that's how I read it. Its not a lack of desire to hire.

 

[mtangent]

Time is money.
The owners/workers have to eat, buy clothes, etc.
The longer it takes to finish an order, the more that prepayment gets sapped by living & operating expenses rather than production.

That's why an ever stretching time period is such a major warning sign.
I don't think anybody considers it a matter of ill intent in this instance. People just see a lot of big red warning signs regarding the business.

 

[B.F.U]

My only input is this: There is no excuse for wait times this long. Yes, they say there is no guarantee of when orders will be fulfilled. That does not excuse these wait times. I honestly don't even understand how they can put forth a reasonable explanation. I'm sure demand is high, but they don't make their own knives. They contact out 99% of the work. So what professional machine shop is putting them so far behind? The answer is that that's not what's happening. There can be no other logical explanation than the company is being mismanaged.

I like their designs, and have looked into ordering several times. I did not receive mind easing responses. I hope not, but I see a fall coming for SURVIVE!.

 

[Silver Needle]

My only input is this: There is no excuse for wait times this long. Yes, they say there is no guarantee of when orders will be fulfilled. That does not excuse these wait times. I honestly don't even understand how they can put forth a reasonable explanation. I'm sure demand is high, but they don't make their own knives. They contact out 99% of the work. So what professional machine shop is putting them so far behind? The answer is that that's not what's happening. There can be no other logical explanation than the company is being mismanaged.

I like their designs, and have looked into ordering several times. I did not receive mind easing responses. I hope not, but I see a fall coming for SURVIVE!.

Do you know very much about SURVIVE!? A lot of what you said seems like you're making guesses, but if I'm wrong I'd gladly retract that comment.

I am not defending the wait times, but I'd like to clear up a few points. How do you figure that they contract out 99% of the work? I disagree with this number. I even disagree with 90%. They do add their own finish to the steel, engraving, assembly, handle fitting, final sharpening and any blemishes that need to be addressed. Does this work add up to 1% or 10%? Maybe it's me, but it seems people try to cheapen the company because the blades are laser cut from sheets of steel and heat treated by professionals outside of the S! workshop.

Orders were taken starting in March of 2015 and the ordering was left open until each model went into production. Because the first model took over 6 months to get through and the second model is looking at about the same time frame, there is now quite a back log. That's the story. Whether it is right or wrong CUSTOMERS ASKED FOR THIS. No, nobody asked for the wait at what it is, but when things sold out before the starter campaign in March, people wanted to be able to order even though there wasn't a physical product in existence. People (not anyone here, but they're out there) are still asking to be able to preorder. I'm not convinced that the disapproving voices here are the majority.

As it's already been brought up here, Guy (the owner of the company) does most of the finishing steps that I mentioned. That is the admitted hold up. If that is your definition of being mismanaged then I guess you're right. I do hope you're wrong about the eventual fall of SURVIVE!

 

[B.F.U]

Do you know very much about SURVIVE!? A lot of what you said seems like you're making guesses, but if I'm wrong I'd gladly retract that comment.

I am not defending the wait times, but I'd like to clear up a few points. How do you figure that they contract out 99% of the work? I disagree with this number. I even disagree with 90%. They do add their own finish to the steel, engraving, assembly, handle fitting, final sharpening and any blemishes that need to be addressed. Does this work add up to 1% or 10%? Maybe it's me, but it seems people try to cheapen the company because the blades are laser cut from sheets of steel and heat treated by professionals outside of the S! workshop.

Orders were taken starting in March of 2015 and the ordering was left open until each model went into production. Because the first model took over 6 months to get through and the second model is looking at about the same time frame, there is now quite a back log. That's the story. Whether it is right or wrong CUSTOMERS ASKED FOR THIS. No, nobody asked for the wait at what it is, but when things sold out before the starter campaign in March, people wanted to be able to order even though there wasn't a physical product in existence. People (not anyone here, but they're out there) are still asking to be able to preorder. I'm not convinced that the disapproving voices here are the majority.

As it's already been brought up here, Guy (the owner of the company) does most of the finishing steps that I mentioned. That is the admitted hold up. If that is your definition of being mismanaged then I guess you're right. I do hope you're wrong about the eventual fall of SURVIVE!

Okay, I'll concede to 90% of the work time processes are done outside of SURVIVE!. As far as my research shows, they don't finish the steel. It is mainly finished (tumbling) at an outside shop. Do you know that they do engraving? I honestly don't know either way, because it is a tiny part of the process (especially when at a production level) that doesn't affect the use of the knife at all. The handle fitting is not a production process, they just screw the handles on, but I suppose they might do some light sanding. I have read several places that sharpening is done in house. I'd say that that leaves a solid 80 (conservatively) to 90% of the work contracted.

I'm not cheapening the quality of the knives at all. To the contrary, I know Peter's Heat Treat to be a great business and I'm sure their machinist does a great job. What I said is that it suggests that the long waits are due to in house mismanagement.

Customers ask for a lot of things. That doesn't mean you should abuse demand for your product and feign fulfilling that demand, only to take payment in full up front and then ask customers to be fine with wait times that rival some of the longer custom maker wait times.

That's a nice idea that Guy takes ownership and does all those things. Is it good for the customer? NO. As far as I've been able to find, Guy has no custom knifemaking experience or even professional sharpening experience. Why should customers take it as a good thing that they have to wait so long because he is creating a 12 month bottleneck? They shouldn't. The company is being mismanaged because Guy should take the actions of a strong leader and delegate to competent employees. Even disregarding the mismanagement, I don't understand how the backup is as long as it is due to his responsibilities. It just doesn't add up.

SURVIVE! is a company taking orders with full up front payment at the level of a production company, then managing its production as if it is a one man custom shop despite not having a custom knifemaker in house...

I'll say again, I like their designs. I like that they started in Pennsylvania. I like that Guy stands behind his products. I like the warranty. I don't like the business practices or the cult following.

 

[craytab]

As it's already been brought up here, Guy (the owner of the company) does most of the finishing steps that I mentioned. That is the admitted hold up. If that is your definition of being mismanaged then I guess you're right. I do hope you're wrong about the eventual fall of SURVIVE!

So since this thread is still open even though it seems the same issues are being talked about over and over, let's answer some very specific questions. If the issue survive is having is not one of cash flow, and as you say is only one of Guy holding up producing knives because of "finishing steps" then why the pre-order stuff? Why not just sell the knives when they are made? Further, if it is only guy holding it up, why? Maybe some help in the finishing department? How does selling pre-orders help Guy finish knives?

It would help a lot if these concerns were addressed by either the company or those that vehemently defend their practices. Some clarity could really help this controversy if we are going to continue to watch the bickering. I doubt clear answers will be found and the controversy will continue whether this thread is open or not. People feel how they do about this. Not much else left but to watch what survive chooses to do.

 

[mlmcasual]

So since this thread is still open even though it seems the same issues are being talked about over and over, let's answer some very specific questions. If the issue survive is having is not one of cash flow, and as you say is only one of Guy holding up producing knives because of "finishing steps" then why the pre-order stuff? Why not just sell the knives when they are made? Further, if it is only guy holding it up, why? Maybe some help in the finishing department? How does selling pre-orders help Guy finish knives?

It would help a lot if these concerns were addressed by either the company or those that vehemently defend their practices. Some clarity could really help this controversy if we are going to continue to watch the bickering. I doubt clear answers will be found and the controversy will continue whether this thread is open or not. People feel how they do about this. Not much else left but to watch what survive chooses to do.

I'll give you the history..

They used to sell the knives as they were made. I bought some SK knives during their original partnership out in PA. Even way back then, the demand was high and production so far below the demand that it was EXTREMELY difficult to buy one.. as soon as one would randomly land on thier e-commerce it would be gone moments later.. After the original partnership dissolved, it was just one partner (guy) and he started doing a "kickstarter" like system of prepurchases.. For every model, X amount of prepurchases would be collected so he would know exactly how much material to buy, could buy in bulk, and would have all the cash from the prepurchases. The intent was to be a solution and intended as a "win win" for customers and also SK. Customers would "finally" be guaranteed to get a knife instead of the lottery like odds of getting one on the e-store. and would be win for SK as they would become much more efficient building in batches with batch discounts..
Many, included myself heaped praise on SK! for changing to this new prepurchase system. Where everything started to go south was the lead-times destabilized becoming longer and longer and the preorder models grew in number creating a huge backlog.. Suddenly the original intent didn't seem such a "win win" to some customers that were facing 2 years or longer lead times.. and that's then the whole concern of long-term viability began popping up..

 

[Silver Needle]

Okay, I'll concede to 90% of the work time processes are done outside of SURVIVE!. As far as my research shows, they don't finish the steel. It is mainly finished (tumbling) at an outside shop. Do you know that they do engraving? I honestly don't know either way, because it is a tiny part of the process (especially when at a production level) that doesn't affect the use of the knife at all. The handle fitting is not a production process, they just screw the handles on, but I suppose they might do some light sanding. I have read several places that sharpening is done in house. I'd say that that leaves a solid 80 (conservatively) to 90% of the work contracted.

I'm not cheapening the quality of the knives at all. To the contrary, I know Peter's Heat Treat to be a great business and I'm sure their machinist does a great job. What I said is that it suggests that the long waits are due to in house mismanagement.

Customers ask for a lot of things. That doesn't mean you should abuse demand for your product and feign fulfilling that demand, only to take payment in full up front and then ask customers to be fine with wait times that rival some of the longer custom maker wait times.

That's a nice idea that Guy takes ownership and does all those things. Is it good for the customer? NO. As far as I've been able to find, Guy has no custom knifemaking experience or even professional sharpening experience. Why should customers take it as a good thing that they have to wait so long because he is creating a 12 month bottleneck? They shouldn't. The company is being mismanaged because Guy should take the actions of a strong leader and delegate to competent employees. Even disregarding the mismanagement, I don't understand how the backup is as long as it is due to his responsibilities. It just doesn't add up.

SURVIVE! is a company taking orders with full up front payment at the level of a production company, then managing its production as if it is a one man custom shop despite not having a custom knifemaker in house...

I'll say again, I like their designs. I like that they started in Pennsylvania. I like that Guy stands behind his products. I like the warranty. I don't like the business practices or the cult following.

One physical product of the March preorders is that SURVIVE! got a new machine to do the finishing in house. And, yes, they do their own engraving.

I'm not sure if I can defend against the company taking to heart customer feedback... to a fault.

Some people don't mind the wait so far, but nobody loves it. A lot of return customers do appreciate the high level of detail put in each knife and that has remained the company's focus. They can't please everyone and that's just how it is right now. As far as the backlog not adding up... there are thousands of preorders with more coming in regularly and one man has his hands on every single knife before it is sent out. That's the definition of a bottle neck and the reason each model has taken months and months to get worked through. When you look at the wait growing and growing it is a serious concern, but as many customers want a knife right now, there are at least just as many who placed an order in the first place expecting a flawless knife upon arrival. That has become Guy's signature and he's choosing to value that above shortening lead times. He does most things himself so that he knows it's perfect. I'm not trying to say the back log shouldn't be a concern, but it's up to each individual customer to decide what is desirable. I get the sense from the folks here which way they'd go, but those participating here are not the majority.

Not everyone approves of the business practice, but it's not for any of us to decide. Whether we love it or hate it, it's Guy's company and his decision.

Cult following? Which maker doesn't have a cult following? Would you question the superiority of INFI to the Busse guys? Would you disapprove of the becker handles to the beckerheads? Would you go to jungletraining.com and say the Izula folder is a dumb idea?

 

[Silver Needle]

People feel how they do about this. Not much else left but to watch what survive chooses to do.

mlm addressed your questions about as well as I could have.

I said something similar to your quote above, a few pages ago. I don't think a lot of people realize the exact same debate has happened a lot in the last few years with no real results.

I'm trying to politely answer honest questions, but I'm sure we're all going to leave this thread with the same view of SURVIVE! that we had when we came in. I don't know what could be accomplished by keeping it going.

 

[craytab]

mlm addressed your questions about as well as I could have.

I said something similar to your quote above, a few pages ago. I don't think a lot of people realize the exact same debate has happened a lot in the last few years with no real results.

My point exactly. The only results are the ones we have now. They are perfectly available for all to see. Future results can only come in the future. Not anything else to debate right now really.

Seems like the OP has been answered. If you are comfortable with such a model, place your order. If not, then don't. On the fence? Wait and see.

 

[Silver Needle]

If you are comfortable with such a model, place your order. If not, then don't. On the fence? Wait and see.

Nailed it :thumbup:

 

[B.F.U]

One physical product of the March preorders is that SURVIVE! got a new machine to do the finishing in house. And, yes, they do their own engraving.

I'm not sure if I can defend against the company taking to heart customer feedback... to a fault.

Some people don't mind the wait so far, but nobody loves it. A lot of return customers do appreciate the high level of detail put in each knife and that has remained the company's focus. They can't please everyone and that's just how it is right now. As far as the backlog not adding up... there are thousands of preorders with more coming in regularly and one man has his hands on every single knife before it is sent out. That's the definition of a bottle neck and the reason each model has taken months and months to get worked through. When you look at the wait growing and growing it is a serious concern, but as many customers want a knife right now, there are at least just as many who placed an order in the first place expecting a flawless knife upon arrival. That has become Guy's signature and he's choosing to value that above shortening lead times. He does most things himself so that he knows it's perfect. I'm not trying to say the back log shouldn't be a concern, but it's up to each individual customer to decide what is desirable. I get the sense from the folks here which way they'd go, but those participating here are not the majority.

Not everyone approves of the business practice, but it's not for any of us to decide. Whether we love it or hate it, it's Guy's company and his decision.

Cult following? Which maker doesn't have a cult following? Would you question the superiority of INFI to the Busse guys? Would you disapprove of the becker handles to the beckerheads? Would you go to jungletraining.com and say the Izula folder is a dumb idea?

Yeah, it's his company and his decision. And he will have nowhere else to place blame if things go wrong. I hope they don't, I'd like to get a SURVIVE! if they work out a less abusive sales system, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Few makers' cult followings accept anything on the same plane as these wait times. Not even Busse comes close, and I don't absolutely love their system.

- Yes. I prefer SR101 and have said so.
- Yes. The full size handles are slightly too short and wide for my hands, and I have said so. That is mostly because I have unusual hands.
- Yes. I don't think frame locks are ideal for the usage ESEE advertises it's knives are made. I also have my other criticisms of ESEE, which I believe I've made clear and open.

Every company has its strength and weaknesses. The problem is when people grow so attached to a brand that they refuse to consider the weaknesses rationally. SURVIVE! has unusually troubling weaknesses with their current sales system.

 

[braillediver]

If 95% + of all your posts on Bladeforums are in the Survive! Knife forum there's no chance of an open minded, unbiased opinion. They're the only ones defending the companies behavior and their defense makes no sense.

 

[Standard78]

Nice assumption.

 

[KELAMA]

There is no excuse for wait times this long. Yes, they say there is no guarantee of when orders will be fulfilled. That does not excuse these wait times.

^ This!

If 95% + of all your posts on Bladeforums are in the Survive! Knife forum there's no chance of an open minded, unbiased opinion. They're the only ones defending the companies behavior and their defense makes no sense.

^ Perfectly stated! :thumbup:

 

[KELAMA]

Two of the most commonly discussed issues that have been a constant theme preached here in the GBU:

1. Never pay for Goods, using PayPal's Friend's & Family/Gift option.

2. Never, ever, pay a knife maker in advance (with the exception of perhaps paying for certain materials).

It would be interesting, if someone here would research the BladeForum archives, & compile a list of every single GBU thread involving a maker who took money upfront, got in over their head, then subsequently failed to deliver. There are a couple of active thread's currently being discussed with no resolve this very moment:

Nocturnal Knives
Dustin Turpin

^ Why should Survive! Knives, be granted an exemption from using this common sense logic?

 

[braillediver]

Back to the basics:
1) Are the lead times- A) Getting shorter? B) Staying the same? \ C) Getting longer?

2) Are there any other single points of failure in their manufacturing process? A) Grinding the blades \ B) ?

3) Why are they releasing new products when they can't deliver the old ones? Spending resources dreaming of the future when they can't deliver their current obligations= Vaporware.

4) How many knives do they sell in their scratch and dent sales? Quality issues preventing them from meeting their current prepaid obligations?

5) Why are they selling knives in the Monday sales when they have paying customers waiting for pre-paid knives?

6) Not having even a basic delivery time frame \ schedule means that don't know if they're A) Getting ahead. B) Breaking even. C) Falling behind.

7) Other than saying "It's Hard"- What are they doing to address the ever increasing backlog?

8) Having Investment incentives for prepaying $1000, $2000 and $5000 when they can't meet their current backlog is dubious at best.

9) You can't really discuss the viability of their product because it's unavailable.

10) A rabid fan base for an unavailable product indicates fanaticism not quality.

11) The responses from their supporters show a fundamental lack of manufacturing knowledge.

12) No one here has questioned the makers enthusiasm or intentions- They've questioned their ability to run a company and their manufacturing knowledge.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions

1.
proverb
promises and plans must be put into action, or else they are useless.