What is your dream forging press?

looking nice Mike..
I like the position of upper piston pad-eye pin, looking at the cyl base bumper
being close to the plate.

I have a line drawing of one of two I want to pick from to build
though it is different than yours, I did make some additions and additions
to it from your Ideas.
I'm liking the colm idea to bring in the welds, though still not sure why you want them so long..

I'd like it if you would look over my design and have at it..
my die plate stabilizing will work well I think for the lack of money needed for it.

I like Ron's (Bowie) idea about having things up at face level or close , so my piston
is at the bottom BUT still the lower die plate will not move up with the piston..
this should make you wonder?? until I get it posted.
The tube main frame I'm hoping will be the oil tank, if it will hold enough volume if not it will cut down on the size
of a tank needed and still aid in cooling.. sorry this is some what OT.
thanks Mike this all leads to a better mouse trap for sure..
 
Mark Williams said:
Looking good!

You know , it sure would be easy to add some more rigidity to this thing if you were to connect some bracing at the base of the cylinder to the side side braces.

Cant wait to see how it performs.
Click to expand...
My initial idea was to tie into the long threaded bolts running up the cylinder but i am very leary about taking apart a $230 cylinder and causing damage to it. Now that i have the cylinder I will see if there is any way possible to tie into the cylinder and the side tubes to help support it. Those additional supports as well as the ram guide should make for a very stiff design.
 
Dan Gray said:
looking nice Mike..
I like the position of upper piston pad-eye pin, looking at the cyl base bumper
being close to the plate.

I have a line drawing of one of two I want to pick from to build
though it is different than yours, I did make some additions and additions
to it from your Ideas.
I'm liking the colm idea to bring in the welds, though still not sure why you want them so long..

I'd like it if you would look over my design and have at it..
my die plate stabilizing will work well I think for the lack of money needed for it.

I like Ron's (Bowie) idea about having things up at face level or close , so my piston
is at the bottom BUT still the lower die plate will not move up with the piston..
this should make you wonder?? until I get it posted.
The tube main frame I'm hoping will be the oil tank, if it will hold enough volume if not it will cut down on the size
of a tank needed and still aid in cooling.. sorry this is some what OT.
thanks Mike this all leads to a better mouse trap for sure..
Click to expand...
Lets see what you have? I couldnt tell from the modified photo what you were thinking when you turned the cylinder upside down. Can you post a line drawing to clarify?

Im hoping all these ideas will get everyone thinking along a different path and hopefully something great will come of it.

DAN

"I'm liking the colm idea to bring in the welds, though still not sure why you want them so long.. "

It transfers the load down to the ground. Same principle as putting an Anvil on a stump. If you put the anvil in the middle of your dinning room table and hit it compared to setting it on a stump and hiting it. The stump transfers the load to the ground. (Thanks for that analogy Brian G.)
 
This thread is great.

About placing motor and pump outside: Is there any problem or loss as hoses get longer? IOW, does the length of hose from the powerpack to the actual cylinder affect performance?

Thanks,

John Frankl
 
I wonder if you could replace the bottom plate with a plate thats welded to the sides and that the piston bolts into? Got to be something simple to add side to side support.
 
adammichael said:
Lets see what you have? I couldnt tell from the modified photo what you were thinking when you turned the cylinder upside down. Can you post a line drawing to clarify?
Click to expand...
the cly body bottom plate (part of the cly) now that I can see the type of cly you have, your cly is a fully rebuild-able cly
and it would be a problem doing as I mentioned..but for the other type you'd have just have to remove the pad-eyes and then you can use it the way I pictured, in turn this
would give you surface aria supported by the cly walls.
unlike the articulating pin and clevis joint. the rod being top side adds leverage to the cly body for said support..
as you can see it would help greatly support the die in all tilt directions
newram3.jpg


Dan said:
"I'm liking the colm idea to bring in the welds, though still not sure why you want them so long.. "
Click to expand...
It transfers the load down to the ground. Same principle as putting an Anvil on a stump. If you put the anvil in the middle of your dinning room table and hit it compared to setting it on a stump and hiting it. The stump transfers the load to the ground. QUOTE]

I'm sorry Mike
I still don't get it on the colm to the floor..versus up higher. I'm really not tring to get under your skin here I'm just tring to understand what's in your head,,

question???
You are saying? that the colm pressure is directed to the floor and the floor will stop any bending or braking of the welds of the lower horizontal tubes by the fources of the piston,
given enough pressure?
I can only see the differance of the weight of the press itself would be gained by this move.



interesting analogy ..
an anvil takes more shock than load,
and is most the time attached to the stump.

your press is taking a load not shock ( mostly) and should not press any load to the floor..
if it does the lower tube will bend or brake the welds,
again you are saying that the floor will stop this from happening?
(the press does not out weigh the force of the piston power)
if either happens the floor of course will not move but also it can't stop the force of the piston
because
the press will not be bolted to the floor right..if not the press has only one thing to do and that is raze itself from the lower tubes..if the welds should happen to brake..

Mike you liken this to an I-beam press
and I believe now, that you feel that on an I-beam press all forces are directed to the floor
It's not,,
any of the I'beam below the lowest point of die shelf supports and gussets
is just basically a heave stand for the press supporting the weight of the press only..edited to add
you could hang it from the ceiling and it would press the same amount..
it would have to be exsplained to me some other way to work but it just can't happen that way any way I can look at it...
 
blgoode said:
I wonder if you could replace the bottom plate with a plate thats welded to the sides and that the piston bolts into? Got to be something simple to add side to side support.
Click to expand...
Brian that's kind of what I'm after, you could lengthen the pusher plate
to do the same then get the tilt support from the cly itself up side down.
 
Dan Gray said:
It transfers the load down to the ground. Same principle as putting an Anvil on a stump. If you put the anvil in the middle of your dinning room table and hit it compared to setting it on a stump and hiting it. The stump transfers the load to the ground. QUOTE]

I'm sorry Mike
I still don't get it on the colm to the floor..versus up higher. I'm really not tring to get under your skin here I'm just tring to understand what's in your head,,

question???
...
Click to expand...
Everytime you ask that question you get the same answer and you never like the answer. It is based on proven engineering principles found in any structural analysis textbook. The tubes transfer the load to the ground. What that means is the tubes transfer the load to the ground. IT doesnt mean "only if its bolted to the floor" or that the side tubes dont need to be welded or that the rest of the press doesnt need to structurally sound. It means the tubes transfer the load down to the ground.

I dont know what else to say about it.

This is the same discussion we had before. There are alot of things that someone might not understand but that doesnt mean there not true. I debated about wheather or not I should even respond to your post because i didnt want to get into this again. I responded with an analogy that makes it crystal clear but we are going back and forth again.
 
Lets work on the side to side support issue. Do you think that it will wobble and create a weak bolt area Michael? What can be a simple solution? There has to something easy ;) What about just a huge collar of some sort that will be welded to the sides and the piston just sits in it like a big bushing?
 
blgoode said:
Lets work on the side to side support issue. Do you think that it will wobble and create a weak bolt area Michael? What can be a simple solution? There has to something easy ;) What about just a huge collar of some sort that will be welded to the sides and the piston just sits in it like a big bushing?
Click to expand...
I am all for making this as simple as possible and you collar idea is i good one.

I didnt want to weld on the cylinder because of the seals inside. I dont want to ruin a $230 cylinder. My train of thought was simular to yours. I believe the collar is a great idea, Brian. I went with 2 of them outside of the cylinder. Good idea putting some supports on the cylinder per your first post. If the bolts werent there i could fab a round bracket that would wrap the body of the cyl and attach to the outside tubes. I wasnt sure if it was possible to disasemble the bolts on the outside of the cylinder, attach a support and reinstall the bolts. I dont know if that would damage the cylinder.
 
Ron Claiborne said:
This press is looking good to me ,i like the new supports on the guides ,can you guys tell me the program your drawing in and where do i get it some time i need my buddy fitzo to teach me to post pictures .
i am excited in seeing it completed .Mike do you have all the components to complete it and if i can be of help call me .
thanks for shearing this with us and i really enjoyed talking with you today call anytime i find this very interesting
BOWIE-- DAMASCUS FREE
Click to expand...
After a VERY informitive discussion with Bowie and numerious talks with Mike Fitzgerald, I decided to take there advise and lengthen the collar 1" and tighten up the tolerance of the collar/guide bar from .055" to .015" per collar. The principle and overall look will be the same but i think it will be a much more effective design.

I am trying to make this press as this thread is developing so some improvements cant be done because i already completed the frame. Luckily I havent fabricated/welded the guides and collars yet so that will be changed.

Please everyone, there is no need for concern, THE CUP HOLDER WILL BE ON THE FINAL PRODUCT!!!

Thanks everyone for participating in this dicussion.
 
My personal opinion based on absolutely no technical info and only a gut feel:

I don't like the idea of "trapping" the cylinder. I wouldn't want to create anything that could potentially mess with the overall linearity of the casing/ram for fear of creating a minutely uneven seal wear.

The pivot point at the lower clevis pin would still remain. My recommendations have surrounded either reducing the clevis pivot (my whacky idea I mentioned earlier, best discarded), or making the slide more rigid. This would all be moot except for the combination squaring dies, which will definitely want to skew things.

IMO, Michael, the only thing that could happen is the combo dies are just too much and you'll have to revert to one-square per die. By tightening tolerances and increasing tube length you have addressed this and the final analysis will be in the actual use. One way to help this will be the aforementioned use of removable stop blocks on the off-side if it becomes an issue.
 
You seem to be considering separating tank and pump from the frame. Something to pay heed to is if PlainOlBill comes back about whether he's still got his remote pump/tank hard piped. I remember when he first did that it resonated his whole building and actually made it worse. I can't remember if he insulated that effectively or had to go to flexible tubing. These suckers do whine and if mine wasn't outside under the carport and was enclosed it'd be very aggravating with a long day's work. If Bill doesn't come back on this I'll pester his old arse with a phone call. Been a week since I annoyed him, anyhow....

Indian George has his hydraulics on quick-disconnects so he can even remove the pumping system to the garage or wherever for service and leave the frame where it sits.

Another little hint is make the switch very accessible as you approach the press. Most guys will turn their press off between heats to cut down both the noise and the pump time to keep the system temp down. Naturally, one always has the 2300F billet in hand when they turn around to go to the press, so the switch needs to be easy to get at. I wanted to put one of those "emergency-off mushroom-head" switches on mine but it was too expensive. For $36 I got a 220V industrial strength rocker style like a house switch and cut the protective side ears off.
 
fitzo said:
My personal opinion based on absolutely no technical info and only a gut feel:

My recommendations have surrounded either reducing the clevis pivot (my whacky idea I mentioned earlier, best discarded), or making the slide more rigid.

IMO, Michael, the only thing that could happen is the combo dies are just too much and you'll have to revert to one-square per die. By tightening tolerances and increasing tube length you have addressed this and the final analysis will be in the actual use. One way to help this will be the aforementioned use of removable stop blocks on the off-side if it becomes an issue.
Click to expand...
What is this wacky idea of yours? Lets not discard it untill everyone has a chance to make fun of you first.:D
 
I tried drawing that 3 times and I realized I haven't progressed one bit since I drew Flash Gordon spaceships on long register tape as a kid. :(

My idea was to possibly incorporate a long clevis pin and weld in two more "ears" for the pin to go through on either side of the existing "ear" and clevis. Drill the center hole closer to the plate by 1/8" and it would load the two outer ears first. Now you'd have three points, it's loaded out over the edges of the dies, and the pivotng would be reduced.

Now, the only thing you gotta figure out is what the hell I mean by an "ear". Gotta remember I'm a chemlab geek.......
I can tell you what the "chiral selector moiety on an enantioselective chromatographic substrate" is but I have no idea what the technical term is for that danged "ear". At least I know without doubt exactly what I mean....LOL. In my existential world you're all just figments of my imagination anyway and I'm dreaming..... :p :rolleyes: :D

So, I'll go ahead and dream a big chuckle on all of your faces..... :eek: :)
 
fitzo said:
I can tell you what the "chiral selector moiety on an enantioselective chromatographic substrate" is but I have no idea what the technical term is for that danged "ear".
Click to expand...
Isnt that what happens when you try to get a hamon on O1 steel?:D

I think i know what you mean, that might help with the left to right wobble a little but what about front to back stability? Maybe you could weld some of that enantioselective chromatographic substrate on the clevis? That stuff sounds rigid.;)
 
I sure debated about replying back on this one too Mike.. :(
I've tried to explain myself too many ways now.. and seem to be beating a dead horse.

question remained the same because the answer I guess is for another question...no matter now...

You've said all along the tubes transfer the load down to the ground ..

This lead me to think you believe the ground would strengthen the press in some way :confused:

yes I can be thick headed at times..and that converts to I don't explain myself well..
*********
.to straighten it out in my head,,,
...
Mike give me A Yes or No..to this ONE question please .
and I'll be done with it..I promise..

Will the press have less integrity self destruction wise?,

If you take your very same press and place (temporarily) 4- 2" blocks under the ends of the feet, making the press now 2" off the ground..
(I know this sounds stupid Mike, but humor me please...)

,,Will the press now have less integrity self destruction wise? with the blocks or even removable casters under the feet?,
just a Yes or No ..
set this bone head straight..thanks you :)
************

,, it was mentioned that a stress program may be a good thing to ck this stuff out ,, I agree 100% it could prove out what I'm trying to point out but
what I'm pointing out is just not being understood fully, I guess :(
I thank you for the time , I've learned some very good things from this.
 
humm..I am starting to see what Dans saying now....
the downward force still has an upward and a decreased outward force that needs to be delt with. IS that it Dan?

Imagine the press jumping up from the downward force I guess? Just reaching here :D
 
I don't think you need anything further than the longer tubes and tighter tolerances you've already incorporated. I think making the slide rigid and not the cylinder is the wise approach.

To be honest I've had no ideas about front-to-back other than what I read here: 4 tubes. I don't personally think it's going to prove necessary.

The only other thoughts I have goes back to Bowie's slide design. That would defeat the purpose of you're not wanting to totally copy his design out of respect for him. That's one of the reasons I was happy to help you; you wanted it different enough it didn't look like you copped one of my best friend's work. Given they both have an H-frame and there aren't many other configs, most else is different. I admire that. :)
 
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