What makes a good SERE knife?

[dawsonbob]

pads. seriously. best bandage.

Now that we have that little grossity out of the way-

I think rotte has some really good food for thought in starting the thread, we have what looks like 4 main components of knife use having been suggested:

hand to hand weapon
hunting weapon
"bushcraft", "woodslore" or "survival" use
vehicle escape tool

now, how we all think about those.... there's the fun.

Yep. I agree. And this thread has been fun, because it's been informative. It's really interesting (to me, at least) to read everyone's viewpoints and ideas.

 

[sicily02]

yes same here. this has been a great thread.

Bryan

 

[Mistwalker]

I have a few knives I would feel comfortable carrying for the role of a S.E.R.E. knife. Some of them are pictured below. Among the things I would consider prerequisites would be a relatively stout blade, a good positive grip, a good guard, a good point, and a lanyard hole...knowing that I was going into such a situation in advance or at least perceiving it as a real possibility I might select one with serrations as well...depends on the environment I was going in to, whether urban or wilderness.

.

 

[Mistwalker]

My brother in law has been through sere training. He adores the Ontario pilots survival knife.

I have way, way more woods knives than any one person should ever own. I showed all of them to him and he used several, but he wouldn't be swayed from that Ontario. Guess that says something!

To my mind, something like the fallkniven S1 would be perfect though.

If you had seen half of what I have done with, and put my pilots knife through you'd understand his position.


.

 

[warrigal]

Well what a healthy debate.
A lot of this seems to be rehash I'll try to avoid that, except for another glowing endorsement for the USAF Survival knife once you get rid of that very steep factory grind. By the way the Fallkniven DC3 sharpening stones will go in the pouch on the front and is a vast improvement on the original stone.
I think it was Steven Dick. Editor of Tactical knives ( and if it isn't his quote that is my fault) but a survival knife is a knife carried by somebody who's normal day to day doesn't need a knife. If you go hunting once a year you have a knife for that but in my limited experience most pilots ( and in particular military. My experience remember) are only interested in a knife when the're in the mess.
If I had to choose and was only allowed one knife ( arghhh what a nightmare) I'd grab a Victorinox Swiss tool ( Multitool) There isn't much you can't do with a SAK. As far as battoning goes My Cadets use a SAK saw to cut billets of timber then batton them into matchwood then into shavings for firelighting.

Allowed to choose one more knife I'd have to reach for my Fallkniven S1 that really opens up some oppertunities. S1 over USAF, better steel, stronger point, Feeels better to me.
I would not like to be Lumbered ( and I use that word veery deliberately) with a LMFII Just too heavy, Although the strap cutter might have its moments before you actually exit the aircraft.
I have often contemplated spending a day or two with a small triangular file and offsetting the teeth on one of my USAF just see if it would work.
Alot would have to depend on the evirons you we in A small mora is cool for the desert but the J without a machete is just silly.
Just for fun
Israeli commando
Aitor bolo
Blackjack Mamba
Early ( so 12c27) Next gen Ka-Bar
Fixed AL Mar Sere
Bottom one was designed by an Australian Comserv (Combat survival school, RE SERE) Instructor ( Dave Basham) normally paired with a Multi tool.

Top to bottom
USAF
Fallkniven F1 ( Swedish airforce issue survival knife)
Fallkniven S1 ( Swedish Army issue field knife)
BRKT Aurora
German Feldmesser ( field knife)
Al Mar pentagon
O1 made by me Scandi grind bit over .25 inch thick!!
Aristocrate wraith
Far left Buck nighthawk next in small utility by me
Far right Schrade Survival

So which chopper?
Probably the Dave Basham or the Aitor I love my Mamba to much to loose it in the field.
I get a new job next year and the USAF will be going on the webbing.
Carl

 

[udtjim]

You will appreciate a good guard if someone is trying to chop your hand off.

 

[koyote]

You will appreciate a good guard if someone is trying to chop your hand off.

That's the one rub in the whole thing for me. I seriously believe that a vehicle escape tool should not be the SERE knife- and the SERE knife is going to be better by far for not needing that design function.

I'm pretty firm on using the knife to make hunting tools rather than using the knife for hunting, too.

but combat.... truth is I'd rather carry the extra pound and just have a fighting knife and a SERE knife as separate articles. I can't see a way to really, truly, combine the two in an exemplary manner.

 

[udtjim]

That is probably true but if there is any chance that combat may be involved, I want my guard and am used to working around any small inconveniences that it might cause. Other than in the kitchen on a cutting board, a guard does not bother me, I can take it or leave it.

 

[dawsonbob]

That's the one rub in the whole thing for me. I seriously believe that a vehicle escape tool should not be the SERE knife- and the SERE knife is going to be better by far for not needing that design function.

I'm pretty firm on using the knife to make hunting tools rather than using the knife for hunting, too.

but combat.... truth is I'd rather carry the extra pound and just have a fighting knife and a SERE knife as separate articles. I can't see a way to really, truly, combine the two in an exemplary manner.

That's why the Ka-Bar has lasted as long as it has. Let's be honest; it's really not the very best knife for SERE, it's not the best knife for combat and it's not the best knife for survival, but it performs all those functions pretty well. Well enough that it has been the de facto standard for over seventy years. Okay... but it has more than a few flaws for any single one of those uses. It really could stand to be updated, and if someone, perhaps you, could come up with a replacement, it would be a great thing. One thing for sure: the Gerber LMF sure as heck isn't it (to me, at least).

There's enough feedback just on this thread to give someone more than a few ideas. I might even start playing with a few myself, just for fun. I can't make them, but drawing is what I do for a living.

 

[koyote]

I can think of a few things I'd to to the kabar. Starting with a full tang design and a redesigned guard (I guess I'd have to say mortised tang.) micarta scales and a better designed hammer pommel. I hate hammering with pommels, but if you are going to, make it right. Lose the fuller and go with a taper grind. Sharpened clip I can take or leave (offer both options) but I'd much rather a straight spine with a modified tip for drilling and poking. possibly a modified spearpoint like this (though this is a PSK javelin blade, not a full sized kabar style blade):

Ths 'clip' on that isn't sharpened, and I have a tiny bit of finish work to do, if you are wonderign why the spine differential temper is still visible at the beginning of the swedge grind there.

Who knows?


udtjim- I hear ya, but I'd just rather carry two knives in that case. WHat I'd consider a SERE knife proper is going to be so useful as an EDC and so light, that it wouldn't hardly matter. I just weighed one of the LBK knives (the spearpoints I photographed above) that I'm working on and it's 4.25 ounces. add another 3.5 for a sheath.....

 

[dawsonbob]

I can think of a few things I'd to to the kabar. Starting with a full tang design and a redesigned guard (I guess I'd have to say mortised tang.) micarta scales and a better designed hammer pommel. I hate hammering with pommels, but if you are going to, make it right. Lose the fuller and go with a taper grind. Sharpened clip I can take or leave (offer both options) but I'd much rather a straight spine with a modified tip for drilling and poking. possibly a modified spearpoint like this (though this is a PSK javelin blade, not a full sized kabar style blade):

Ths 'clip' on that isn't sharpened, and I have a tiny bit of finish work to do, if you are wonderign why the spine differential temper is still visible at the beginning of the swedge grind there.

Who knows?

By George, Christof, I think you're on to something. I agree with what you're saying about the Ka-Bar. I never did like the fuller, I don't particularly like the clip point (it's weak, and awkward for drilling holes, etc.), I'm with you on the tang and micarta handles, etc. I'm not sure about the pommel, though. Do you really need a hammer, or just an exposed portion of the tang at the back? All fun to think about.

 

[Rotte]

It really could stand to be updated, and if someone, perhaps you, could come up with a replacement, it would be a great thing. One thing for sure: the Gerber LMF sure as heck isn't it (to me, at least).

I have to agree with you and Warrigal on this. I had a Gerber LMF for a short while, but gave it away. Much too heavy and cumbersome.

Still, it seems the USAF pilot's knife could use some updating.

 

[dawsonbob]

I have to agree with you and Warrigal on this. I had a Gerber LMF for a short while, but gave it away. Much too heavy and cumbersome.

Still, it seems the USAF pilot's knife could use some updating.

Yeah, I think you're right about that one, too, Rotte. It seems to me that, for a SERE/combat knife, the pilots knife is a little short, and the Ka-Bar is a little long. They're both very old designs that could use some updating.

 

[Cyblade]

Dawsonbob you wouldnt be talking about this in your earlier post would you

it's a Sheffield MOD knife. To me they look like a really ugly BK2 which would be my idea of a good SERE knife cause they are supposedly bomb proof. Another would be the SOG Revolver cause you would have a knife and a saw and saws can come in handy.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[koyote]

By George, Christof, I think you're on to something. I agree with what you're saying about the Ka-Bar. I never did like the fuller, I don't particularly like the clip point (it's weak, and awkward for drilling holes, etc.), I'm with you on the tang and micarta handles, etc. I'm not sure about the pommel, though. Do you really need a hammer, or just an exposed portion of the tang at the back? All fun to think about.

Dawsonbob you wouldnt be talking about this in your earlier post would you

it's a Sheffield MOD knife. To me they look like a really ugly BK2 which would be my idea of a good SERE knife cause they are supposedly bomb proof.

Ministry of death to the fingers. heh. Okay, the basic idea ain't bad, the execution is a bit to be desired. Here goes- first, if I'm not worried abotu hammering with the pommel I'm just leaving it out. On a full tang knife you don't need it and the handle can be done better without it. Honestly, something like this handle shape, maybe with a more birds head bottom profile: (with the inclusion of a good guard)

give it a bit more rounding and a not overdone drop at the rear.

Add a decent guard. I think the MODe has some tip geometry going on that I'd shange for a kabar replacement.

Having traveled down some of this road as a military combat pilot (and a SERE graduate); let me get the Pilots Survival Knife thing out of the way as I see it: Things are much different in the cockpit (of any military aircraft) than many people imagine.

snippage, but I wanted to say kudos on the post. Good stuff. I got my SERE second hand in 'workshops' from Marines and assorted others. Never had to use it, fortunately.

I have a hard time with a knife trying to be other things than a knife, especially in uneducated or inexperienced hands. Hey, I can safely use a knife to do things it isn't intended to. Just look at the scars on my hands! But really, a knife needs to be a knife. Easy to get out and cut stuff with. If you slow down enough to worry about eating your raw squirrel loin filet on the run, that's dandy, but the knife still needs to...cut. Just fit the hand and cut well. In that regard and with a bit of added education and experience on what we'd call bushcraft skills, I'd again go with something mroe akin to a bushcraft knife than a sharpened prybar or kabar style blade.

 

[warrigal]

Cyblade, I have a MOD4.
But
I have cut off the top guard.
Roughly convexed the blade.
Still have to finish that, then smooth out and contour the grip a bit then get a better ( and right hand sheath, issue is left handed) sheath.
Good and heavy but... I haven't played with it too much yet.

Carl

 

[Cyblade]

The BK2 is what I would use either that or my camillus crewman, I played with an MOD at a gun show once and it was not something I would wanna try to use without alot of work on it.

 

[Bushman5]

SERE knife:

http://gearpatrol.com/blog/2009/06/18/ka-bar-becker-tactool/

nuff said

 

[ROCK6]

I'm with Koyote regarding the separation from an escape tool vice knife...sure you can combine them, but I think they are two separate functions that I wouldn't want combined. I like Ontario's ASEK with the seat-belt cutter/Plexiglass breaker:

This is a good evolution of the original Air Force survival knife. I had the chance to play with one and actually like it for what it is (although the serrations on the main blade have to go for me).

ROCK6