What makes a good SERE knife?

dawsonbob said:
I carried, at various times, all kinds of knives. Had one of the pilot’s survival knives for awhile. I liked it well enough, but it wasn’t perfect (for me). Carried a Ka-Bar for almost nine years and, while I thought it was a very good knife, it wasn’t perfect, either. Then I traded one of the guys for an East German (if I remember correctly — definitely Soviet Block though) knife that I really liked. It was about six inches long, probably about 3/16th of an inch thick, and uglier than sin. There was no pretense of fit and finish on that thing: it looked like it had been punched out of a plate of steel, really roughly ground, and had some kind of plastic/hard rubber slab scales pinned on. The guards were just punched out of thinner metal (al la Ka-Bar). I’ve never seen another quite like it since, but it was my favorite. That sucker was strong, and just made for really tough use. It would have been perfect for SERE situations. I don’t know who “appropriated” it, but I hope it served them as well as it did me.QUOTE]

Was your knife something like these?

knife-nr-21.jpg


2690333878_c3d59e86891.jpg
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There are about a zillion knives out there that would be considered a good SERE knife. The old phrase "form follows function" works in this case. A SERE knife is a survival knife that is comfortable to carry. It has to be sturdy enough so that it will stand up to hard use. Handy enough to slice, carve, whittle. Hold an edge, sharpen easily, safe to use. I think Harpoon said it early in this thread. The pros tend to carry pretty basic stuff. From K-bars to SRKs to Pilot Survival knives to the Boker 4"hunters that were issued in Air Force bailout gear in the 1950's. I guess that there is a difference between a high dollar custom and a stock, good quality production knife. But in my experience I find that difference hard to notice when in the field. There are no magic knives. Just solid knives in competent hands.
 
For a larger SERE knife, I think the Busse Skinny Anniversary Steel Heart would do well. It is light and carries well. I put a full convex grind on mine and it is now the thinnest Busse I have seen. Cuts like a laser.

ASH-1SK013.jpg

ASH1005.jpg
 
So many different views and excellent points made by all, I assume it all boils down to the knife you have on you at the time of S.E.R.E. (Survive, Evade, Resist, Extract ) or (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape ) Similair but Semi Different meanings on different sides of the Ocean
 
Dannyboy Leather said:
And that was my only intent based on some previous replies. I guess I could have stated that more clearly in the beginning. :)



Very true. Some of these people were under my command and I fully understood their missions very, very well. ;) Not everyone that I went through SERE school with were pilots or aircrew.

From the get-go, as I understand it, the term 'survival knife' was first associated with the needs of military pilots. Obviously the whole survival knife concept has greatly evolved since and, significantly more inclusive of any and all who might have need of a tool that is refined/designed to fit their very specific requirements.

I agree with the poster who infers that a general survival knife, good enough for survival (all things considered) would be adequate for SERE. In my own personal experience, this is the way it is. As much as I love to use and collect knives, I have and would emphasize other pieces of equipment, equally, that would assist ones ability to even use the knife in a survival situation (I have some stories). A wilderness and survival forum should consider ALL aspects of survival and hopefully not go with the propensity of fixation on one piece of valuable equipment.

Again, SERE is ultimately about moving from where you are to where you need to be (this is not a camping trip). If this was not so, you would be issued a larger toolbox with better accommodations. With regards to the knife specifically; and if the environment allows such; the larger knife may allow you to stay in one place for a longer period of time. However, most always this is not what SERE is about (rare exceptions). There are times when SERE would be best accomplished with ultra-light attire and minimal gear. Other situations would be best addressed with the whole enchilada. We can throw this knife up, and that knife up for consideration, but we need to be more specific about what the duties of the knife are going to be based on the environment, mission and task. Vietnam was machete weather. Iraq and Afghanistan may require something different (I'm guessing I would exchange that knife for a little shade). :)
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I have to cede the point that knives of this type are most commonly called "Pilots Survival Knives." I simply wasn't thinking along those lines at the time, but more along the lines of SERE situations in general. While I was a Marine, many of the people that I went through EE&S schools with were pilots and aircrew, so perhaps I should have been thinking more of them when I wrote that. I believe you're right, though: the original usage of the term "Pilots Survival Knife" really was directed more at pilots and air crew, but has since evolved into a more general usage.

I also agree that any knife that would fit the bill as a general survival knife, would also fit the bill for a SERE knife. I was thinking more along the lines of what would make a good SERE knife: one that could be carried — and appreciated — not only by pilots, such as yourself, but other aircrew, as well as anyone else who might find themselves in that situation. In other words, I was thinking more of what might make the ideal all around issue knife for those people.

You're right, of course, this is a forum that deals with all aspects of survival, and all of them should be addressed; just not necessarily in one thread. This particular thread just happened to focus on knives, so that's what I addressed. I have absolutely no problem with discussing different aspects of survival in different threads.

Your points about what SERE is in general are well taken, especially from the standpoint of a pilot or air crewman. Perhaps what colored my thinking was that my men and I lived in a world of deep penetration (sounds kinky, I know, but that's not what I'm talking about) where many of the practices you might think of as being for an emergency situation, were an everyday fact of life for us. For those of us down in the mud day to day, a knife — and, indeed, all gear — was probably looked at differently, and that may have colored my thinking somewhat. If you're down behind enemy lines, you just want to get the heck out of there: for us, we deliberately went there to see what was happening.

It's really interesting to me to be getting a pilot's perspective on all of this. I'd never really considered many of these things from the vantage point of a downed flier before. Funny how we all tend to think first about our own situations and uses first.

Good thread: I've really enjoyed this one.
 
D R E said:
dawsonbob said:
I carried, at various times, all kinds of knives. Had one of the pilot’s survival knives for awhile. I liked it well enough, but it wasn’t perfect (for me). Carried a Ka-Bar for almost nine years and, while I thought it was a very good knife, it wasn’t perfect, either. Then I traded one of the guys for an East German (if I remember correctly — definitely Soviet Block though) knife that I really liked. It was about six inches long, probably about 3/16th of an inch thick, and uglier than sin. There was no pretense of fit and finish on that thing: it looked like it had been punched out of a plate of steel, really roughly ground, and had some kind of plastic/hard rubber slab scales pinned on. The guards were just punched out of thinner metal (al la Ka-Bar). I’ve never seen another quite like it since, but it was my favorite. That sucker was strong, and just made for really tough use. It would have been perfect for SERE situations. I don’t know who “appropriated” it, but I hope it served them as well as it did me.QUOTE]

Was your knife something like these?

knife-nr-21.jpg


2690333878_c3d59e86891.jpg
Click to expand...

Hi, DRE,

No, not really. I have to say that, overall, the MOD knife that Cyblade showed was the closest.
survivalknife.jpg

The handle material show on your top one is closer though. I may never find out just what that knife was, who made it, or when. Too bad, because I really liked it, and would like to find another one.

Thanks for taking the time to search and pot, though.
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myright said:
They already have been asked and came up with an answer. They answered RAT RC5 SERE. Check it out.
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Do they clarify which SERE instructors they talked to? Every branch has their own SERE program with different levels. It’s interesting that the RC 5 is described as an aircraft survival knife.
 
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What do you think about the Al Mar SERE knifes like the older out of production ATTACK or the newer one the SERE 2000?
I got both, but dont know anything about military training.

Here are pics of mine.

49313902.jpg


img7218beschnittenklein.jpg
 
SERE means Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape. It differs from a designated survival knife in that it may very well be needed in a combat or E&E scenario where camoflage and concealment isn't just theory, it's life and death. Depending on the scenario it may be necessary to use for escaping a vehicle such as air or watercraft. This rules out alot of traditional survival knife features, such as orange g10 handles, unfinished blades, kydex sheaths etc. A SERE knife must be QUIET on the draw, while still easily accessable, and retained securely at all costs. brightly colored rivets and brass guards are ruled out. The handle must be made of a durable material with some form of blade orientation and offer a full grip, yet the tang must allow for easy re-scaling if the grips break/fail. SERE situations are often long-term survival, where long range mobility and self exfil are necessary-versus waiting for some civilian search and rescue agency to save you. This means edge retention and toughness are a must, and maintenance is an issue-a small, sturdy sharpening system is important, as is maintaining corrosion resistance. The blade must take an edge easily. Convex grind is almost inevitable as most sharpening in the field will be done by hand. A SERE knife must be multi-role, both your beater and your slicer, it must be sufficient to construct shelters, negotiate obstructions, skin game and prep food. It is often the only form of self defense one has, so balance and blade length must be taken into consideration. Improvisation as a digging tool, saw, hammer, spear point, etc is necessary.

Here's my ideal SERE knife.
5-6 inch blade of 1095 or some other comparable high carbon steel, 58-59 Rockwell- easily sharpened, superior edge retention and toughness. With a choil (yes a choil) and comfortable jimping for extra control doing detailed tasks such as woodwork and skinning. A 15-20 degree edge (22.5 is what the Air Force SERE manual recommends but in my experience that's a bit too robust for fine work)
A slight drop point profile, that offers a sturdy but sharp point and a flat surface for battoning etc.
A solid, low profile flat colored finish that won't chip, such as a powder coat or some sort of bluing/patina.
A full tang with full, contoured Micarta scales, preferably with a slight belly, and solid coated stainless steel rivets.
A flat butt for hammering or use as a glass breaker
A sturdy, low profile sheath made of treated canvas or ballistic nylon, with a felt liner that allows for sturdy blade retention (that doesn't rattle) and multiple mounting solutions yet a stealthy draw.
Something along the lines of an RC6 with the RC5 eagle sheath would be perfect.
 
Horned Toad said:
Do they clarify which SERE instructors they talked to? Every branch has their own SERE program with different levels. It’s interesting that the RC 5 is described as an aircraft survival knife.
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Feedback from a SERE instructor after testing an RC-5:

Just got back and I am impressed. The knife is everything that we're looking for. Tough, durable, practical, affordable, and useful. I can't tell you how many fires that I started with the help of the RC-5 and it was a great trip to try out a knife. The weather was unseasonably cold, mostly in the teens but sometimes in the negatives. My friend and I were starting a fire for some cold students and he was bashing his (manufacturer's name removed) through some sections of a downed tree it broke right at the handle, like most bolt knives and (manufacturer's name removed) seem to do. I don't know if it was the cold weather, the perfect angle, or something else but it was a brand new issued (manufacturer's name removed) and it broke right in half. At the same time I was beating the daylights out of the RC-5 hoping to bend, break, or at the very least damage the paint job. I failed to do any of these things and my friend became more and more interested in the RC-5 as I found more and more things that I like about it. I'll get some pictures and a few videos this next trip and send them to you ASAP. Thanks again for the great knife!

Photos From SERE Instructors using the RC-5 (left and middle). Photo right: RC-5 in Iraq:



("Bolt" Knives are knives built with reduced tangs to accommodate handles. Usually these knives have a pommel cap that is threaded or riveted in place. These reduced tang knives will not accept a lot of prying. Examples of this are standard issue pilot's survival knives.)


http://www.ratcutlery.com/rc-5.htm
Ask Jeff upon his return Next week from South America
 
Well I agree that on this side of the ocean S.E.R.E stands for survival, evasion, resistance escape. The thing is its pretty broad training to cover a wide variety of circumstance. Also different military personal are going to get thrust into a SERE scenario differently. A pilot’s survival knife is great for a pilot; they have a small space to work in. A ground pounder isn’t going to necessarily limit himself to a small knife or even a single knife. A Navy guy may not even have a knife. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl
So I don’t think you can say one type of knife is going to be the last word on a SERE knife.
 
Either the BK-2 or the RC-5 would fit the bill nicely, although there are a number of other knives — some by our own makers — that would be good, too. I'm somewhat interested in seeing what else turns up here.
 
texastonydobbs said:
Feedback from a SERE instructor after testing an RC-5:

Just got back and I am impressed. The knife is everything that we're looking for. Tough, durable, practical, affordable, and useful. I can't tell you how many fires that I started with the help of the RC-5 and it was a great trip to try out a knife. The weather was unseasonably cold, mostly in the teens but sometimes in the negatives. My friend and I were starting a fire for some cold students and he was bashing his (manufacturer's name removed) through some sections of a downed tree it broke right at the handle, like most bolt knives and (manufacturer's name removed) seem to do. I don't know if it was the cold weather, the perfect angle, or something else but it was a brand new issued (manufacturer's name removed) and it broke right in half. At the same time I was beating the daylights out of the RC-5 hoping to bend, break, or at the very least damage the paint job. I failed to do any of these things and my friend became more and more interested in the RC-5 as I found more and more things that I like about it. I'll get some pictures and a few videos this next trip and send them to you ASAP. Thanks again for the great knife!

Photos From SERE Instructors using the RC-5 (left and middle). Photo right: RC-5 in Iraq:



("Bolt" Knives are knives built with reduced tangs to accommodate handles. Usually these knives have a pommel cap that is threaded or riveted in place. These reduced tang knives will not accept a lot of prying. Examples of this are standard issue pilot's survival knives.)


http://www.ratcutlery.com/rc-5.htm
Ask Jeff upon his return Next week from South America
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I looked that up before I asked, my post above kind of shows where I was going with it.
 
I wish I'd have been able to get some input on this topic early on but my internet has been down. I have gone through six or seven Air Force issue SERE knives, half Camillus half ontario. I can tell you straightaway the Camillus is better built, and finished. It has a much better edge from the factory than the Ontarios do, and the finish is better. The bolts are alot more solid, where as every ontario I own has a bolt that took a few hits and started rattling, if it didn't come loose from the factory. The steel is also much stronger, must be a better heat treat. Both however fall short of the strength and edge retention of many modern factory knives such as the Kabar Beckers and RATs. The sawback can be handy, but I started carrying a folding saw as they are so much easier to use, for such a small and weightless tool. The usefullness of the bolt, to be honest, is a bit overblown, like I said about two good hits and they get knocked loose. Not to mention they are seriously off balanced, weighted in the hilt and it takes a good long time to get used to it. Where these knives shine is their price-they are dirt cheap beaters that can be easily replaced. I don't feel bad if I chip or fold an edge, I just break out the soft stone and make it right again.
 
Shuya said:
What do you think about the Al Mar SERE knifes like the older out of production ATTACK or the newer one the SERE 2000?
I got both, but dont know anything about military training.
Click to expand...

If you have it when you need it then its the best in the world.:D
 
When the OP said into harms way, this brought Bug Out Knife to my mind. My idea of that means a breakdown of all financial and law and order. This is what brought me to combat ready knives. Maybe that was not his intention but this to me ruled out the most accepted survival knives as ideal.:o
 
Very good thread, interesting points made by many people.

Im by no means expert to say anything, but for one I wouldn't choose anything too big, heavy or overall cumbersome. Some have mentioned RC-5, but by my personal experience I wouldn't choose that knife. It weights ridiculously much for the size, it's too thick and clumsy to do anything in detail and it's too short to chop. It's an attractive knife, but only thing I could imagine it excelling at would be busting out of tin can.

So what would I choose then? I'd propably go with fällkniven F1. It's small knife, but it (and alike knives) can do most things better than most combat knives. It certainly cannot chop, but I'd rather choose a knife that can do everything else much better than having a good chopper that does everything else bad. Shelter making is not problem, since you can do it from wood laying on ground or just simply break some smaller trees.

Just my amateur thoughts.
 
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