What should the Knifemaker's Guild do?

Coop and Carlos, Thank you very much.

Carlos, I look forward to hearing from you and meeting you.

Frank Fischer, I'm not sure I understand your question. I think there will always be a debate about what qualifies as a "handmade" knife. It has been a matter of debate within the Guild.

The Guilds definition: The Guild recognizes that the term “Handmade Knives” is difficult to define and subject to varying interpretations, but hold that, at a minimum, it requires that a maker personally grind, forge, or knap the blade, and honestly disclose how each component is produced.

There is nothing in that definition that prohibits the use of CNC. It is important to note that it says "at a minimum". Many, if not most, of the knives by guild members are completely sole authorship and made using a wide variety of technology.
 
Bobby Branton said:
I hate to add this, but it seems that neither of you have the Knifemakers guild website link or a link to their forum in your sig lines. Maybe that is one reason why no one can find you. Mike did have the forethought to add his websites in his sig line. Ken and Harry have the seal, but they are not linked to anything.
BB
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It is on my to-do list, especially since I just made it as a voting member. I am anxious to proudly display that emblem every chance I get. I do by the way have the emblem on my website linked to the Guild site.

Mike
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
Frank Fischer, I'm not sure I understand your question. I think there will always be a debate about what qualifies as a "handmade" knife. It has been a matter of debate within the Guild.

The Guilds definition: The Guild recognizes that the term “Handmade Knives” is difficult to define and subject to varying interpretations, but hold that, at a minimum, it requires that a maker personally grind, forge, or knap the blade, and honestly disclose how each component is produced.

There is nothing in that definition that prohibits the use of CNC. It is important to note that it says "at a minimum". Many, if not most, of the knives by guild members are completely sole authorship and made using a wide variety of technology.
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Thanks Mike, that clarified things for me. I apologize for the meandering subject of my post. But most of my info is here say. I suppose I didn't do my diligence and research the parameters for being a guild member. So negate 75% of the second paragraph in my original post. What about the high school drama? It's my impression that the guild is a bunch of cliques that is damn near impossible to get along with. My father was a member at one point and I think he only attended one show, and was very displeased with the operation in general. People were not welcoming, in fact, there was an announcement made amongst the show, something along the lines of, we need to see some better grinds or you will lose your guild privileges. And for a struggling organization, seeking more members, these are VERY abrasive words. You'd think that the approach could have been on a more personal level, maybe offering insight from the more seasoned makers. I think its asinine that this is only run by knifemakers, makers are not the collectors! There needs to be atleast 50% input from the consumers pov. Yes makers have an eye for quality, but why not get some of these well established businessmen, that are absolutely addicted to knives, to help out. This is a guild right? An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards. And as a maker, my greatest interest is my customers. So where's the protection of MUTUAL interest, as stated in the organizations title? It seems so one sided...

Babble babble babble, sorry again for my novice input, but I suppose I am still trying to let someone convince me that the guild is the way to go. I'm not going to invest my time and money into something that will be painstaking. As a new maker, knowing that there are only 150 tables available, with more members than that, what can the guild offer me? I have a solid 30 years of knife making ahead of me (assuming I live that long), should I try to join? What are the real benefits? Or am I wasting my energy?
 
Frank Fischer said:
Thanks Mike, that clarified things for me. I apologize for the meandering subject of my post. But most of my info is here say. I suppose I didn't do my diligence and research the parameters for being a guild member. So negate 75% of the second paragraph in my original post. What about the high school drama? It's my impression that the guild is a bunch of cliques that is damn near impossible to get along with. My father was a member at one point and I think he only attended one show, and was very displeased with the operation in general. People were not welcoming, in fact, there was an announcement made amongst the show, something along the lines of, we need to see some better grinds or you will lose your guild privileges. And for a struggling organization, seeking more members, these are VERY abrasive words. You'd think that the approach could have been on a more personal level, maybe offering insight from the more seasoned makers. I think its asinine that this is only run by knifemakers, makers are not the collectors! There needs to be atleast 50% input from the consumers pov. Yes makers have an eye for quality, but why not get some of these well established businessmen, that are absolutely addicted to knives, to help out. This is a guild right? An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards. And as a maker, my greatest interest is my customers. So where's the protection of MUTUAL interest, as stated in the organizations title? It seems so one sided...

Babble babble babble, sorry again for my novice input, but I suppose I am still trying to let someone convince me that the guild is the way to go. I'm not going to invest my time and money into something that will be painstaking. As a new maker, knowing that there are only 150 tables available, with more members than that, what can the guild offer me? I have a solid 30 years of knife making ahead of me (assuming I live that long), should I try to join? What are the real benefits? Or am I wasting my energy?
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Mr. Fischer, I see a lot of bait hanging on this line but I will nibble at it. I can't speak to your fathers experience or about past members, presidents or directors. I wasn't there. I would suggest that you talk to current members. After all, would some 300 knifemakers be paying their dues and renewing each year if it is as you describe?

None of what you describe has been my experience. Nor has it been the experience any current member that I know of. I was very warmly welcomed into the Guild. Likewise, people I have recommended the to the Guild have been warmly welcomed.

The makers make what they want to make, or what their customers order. The Guild has never in any way questioned or suggested what I should make, only that I make it to the quality that a buyer should expect.

I have learned a lot from the members of the Guild about knifemaking, business, history and more. I have gained wonderful friendships that I probably would not have otherwise.

As for customers, I would always strive to please my customers regardless but they know that since they are buying from a Guild member that I know how to make a knife and that I have track record of being an honest and ethical business person. They also know tht they have some recourse if for some reason they felt that it had not been an honest and fair deal.

The brotherhood, friendships, and knowledge gained alone would be enough for me.
 
Frank, maybe a different way to look at this.

I joined the KMG for one reason, to support the org. Because I make custom knives for a
living. Did the same with the ABS.

I don't need anything from these two organizations but I support them because they are
about custom knives.
 
Mike, not all I hear is negative. A friend of mine had nothing but great things to say about his trip this year, as he always speaks highly of the guild, but all the other banter had me on alert and sceptical about pursuing a spot in the show someday. I thank you for taking time to humor my thoughts and was most insightful for me.
Sorry to stray from the topic.
 
TennKnifeman said:
It is not the current Guild's fault they inherited a problem. They shouldn't have to defend what some short sited people did years ago. However, it is their fault if they don't do everything within their power to change the perception. You've seen enough on these forums to know that the Guild has a public relations problem..
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Bruce,
Get real, half of the board were there when things went to the devil. The tattle-tale "Judge" who ran like a third grader to tell the then leaders that Joe Kious had told some one the dirty little secret about the guilds Bob T and Joe was fourced out causing a huge rift.

The real crime was when that same "Judge" acting as the Guilds lawyer had them go to their Utah, real lawyer and take ownership away from the members and give it to the Board. Thereafter the voting membership became meaningless.

Gil Hibben and the other recently elected board members have been helpless, if they would only admit it.

For years the Guild has been run for the benifit of the Board members and will not be healed until the members elect people who care about knives and the organization. That is not likely to happen because the guild has been run for years by a tiny group that includes only about half of the board, the real power has recently died but who now holds his power?

Until the members take control again there is no hope.
 
A. G. Russell said:
Bruce,
Get real, half of the board were there when things went to the devil. The tattle-tale "Judge" who ran like a third grader to tell the then leaders that Joe Kious had told some one the dirty little secret about the guilds Bob T and Joe was fourced out causing a huge rift.

The real crime was when that same "Judge" acting as the Guilds lawyer had them go to their Utah, real lawyer and take ownership away from the members and give it to the Board. Thereafter the voting membership became meaningless.

Gil Hibben and the other recently elected board members have been helpless, if they would only admit it.

For years the Guild has been run for the benifit of the Board members and will not be healed until the members elect people who care about knives and the organization. That is not likely to happen because the guild has been run for years by a tiny group that includes only about half of the board, the real power has recently died but who now holds his power?

Until the members take control again there is no hope.
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Quite an inflammatory post Mr. Russell, but being an outsider I have no idea whom or what events you refer to?

Peter
 
I do defer to the Honorary President of the Guild, and the man behind the Guild being formed, Mr. A. G. Russell.

Someone else posted this but I'm repeating it enough that I hope it might take hold. Some actual creative thinking:

A combined show, combine the Knifemakers Guild show with the ABS Show?

Having said that I wonder if it will be safe for me to go to the next handmade knife show? lol How about it makers? How may of you read that and said, "How dare he?"

Ole Teddy Roosevelt said, "Dare greatly."

Question is does the Guild and the ABS have the real cajones to do it?
 
Don Hanson III said:
Mr. Russell is speaking of the events that started the downhill slide of the Guild.
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I did perceive that Don, but the nature of the post seemed like just dwelling on the past, instead of making an effort to improve the future of the Guild.

Many posts ago, I had thought it was agreed to try and keep the thread focused on constructive discussions?

My reference to being an "outsider" was not being a member of the guild nor aware of the events that led to it imploding.

As a knife enthusiast, I certainly HOPE the guild can regain the glory of the past.

I think a combined Blade/Guild show would be great! Maybe even make it more than 3 days:D

Peter
 
So, in my ignorance, I have to ask a question.

What does the Guild do? I don't mean its charter, its mission, or any of that stuff. So far, the best I can determine is that it puts on an annual (?) knife show.

I don't meant to ask this in a baiting fashion. I'm genuinely curious.
 
bluejaunte said:
So, in my ignorance, I have to ask a question.

What does the Guild do? I don't mean its charter, its mission, or any of that stuff. So far, the best I can determine is that it puts on an annual (?) knife show.

I don't meant to ask this in a baiting fashion. I'm genuinely curious.
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See post #12 in this thread.
 
Damn Mike there you are.

I thought the foxhole took a direct hit!

I see you had nothing to say to my last post. Good for you.

But you have nothing to say to the Honorary President of the Knifemakers Guild?

Perhaps you feel he is just "ate up" with all that ancient history?
 
Hi Kevin,

For those that don't know you, you can come across as a bit abrasive, but I'd suggest that "No Nonsense" is closer to the truth. I can't speak for past administrations, but I and the present Board are open to hearing any constructive suggestions from any quarter. We may not be able to afford your services, but I'll take any more freebies you care to part with.
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Thank you.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond as you can speak directly to the Guilds efforts to improve the organization and "tweek" the show!

As for more freebies...lets see how the Guild does with not just mine but all the suggestions made on this thread. I truly believe that all of them could do nothing but increase the Guilds stature in the custom knife community.

I'll be looking for my email. :D
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
See post #12 in this thread.
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to promote custom knives and knifemakers, to assist the knifemaker technically, to encourage ethical and professional business conduct, and to sponsor an annual business meeting and knife show.
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The only action of which I have seen evidence is an annual meeting/show. I guess that falls under the category of "promotion", but it hardly seems original--various dealers and magazines do the same--in many cases to much greater effect.

As for technical assistance, does the Guild sponsor/hold grind-ins? Engraving seminars? Hammer-ins? I don't mean one craftsman making an announcement to the Guild listserv along the lines of "Hey, guys, I'm going to put together a seminar, are you in?" I mean frequent, officially Guild-sponsored and -organized educational opportunities designed to advance the craft and elevate the skills of the membership and/or probationary members. Perhaps especially probationary members.

Re: ethics/good conduct, does the Guild maintain a BBB-style list of "members in good standing"? Or, conversely, do they keep an actively updated list of knifemakers who have proven to be untrustworthy? Is this list published or in some way available to the knife-collecting public?

Forgive me if this is all going on and I somehow missed it. I just don't see a lot of "press" (online, in print, or otherwise) about the Guild.
 
You can't make changes without ruffling some feathers. It goes with the territory. Trying to maintain an even keel is very nice but it doesn't necessarily mean any progress is going to be made. Not real progress I mean. Maybe people/members have to get to the point they act by leaving or act by clearing their throats and saying, 'look, we still need to address these things' its not resolved The problems are still there because some found it easier to tuck them under the rug from what I've gathered. This was easier than to deal with them head on. It was more comfortable that way. Perhaps what is done for now in the way of change will have to do until folks can catch their breath to move further along. I know it took a lot out of some guys dealing with the things that came up regarding the handmade vs midtech or whatever you want to call it. Its a shame but it doesn't look like the changes or compromises if you will, that were made, have helped membership grow at all. In fact it is down from last time I checked and I note a lot of names missing that were there last time I did look.

I think when people look at the Guild membership question and particularly the show its like looking at any other show or any other membership. Whats in it for me if I do it would be the first thing on my mind for example. Its a business decision and not related to status anymore. I think it used to be that it meant something to belong but now? Not so sure it really matters. I mean customers don't care if its handmade or sole authorship or not. At least mine don't. All they care about is if its a quality product and I back it up. (I've asked) I've heard some makers that belong to the Guild tell me they don't do the Tulsa show because the last time they did it didn't pay to go. OK. I can buy that. I can say it doesn't make sense to join the Guild for the same reason though. Until that changes membership will continue to faulter IMO. Bottom line is always about $ and cents. Its the way the world goes round.

The Guild used to be full of excellent expert marketers. I mean all you had to do was look down the list and you saw the big names of some guys that market their knives better than they actually do anything else. In fact thats their first skill, forte` if you will but they are gone now. That was the ticket to save the Guild in my opinion and they let em go. Lost em due to whatever reasons. Probably due to this I don't know. All I do know is that the Guild is like a knife, gun, car or anything else. It is a product. It has to be marketed to pick up sales/membership. The members need to put the same effort into marketing the Guild as they do their products. That will save the Guild.

STR
 
Do you want to know what the most revealing post in this whole thread is?

Originally Posted by Bobby Branton
I heard it was donated to the NKCA and maybe broken up and some pieces were possibly sold because no one want to set it up and man the table. That was a history lesson in itself.

And

I'm sure someone on the board would know.
BB


If we want to talk about lessons to be learned, it doesn’t get much better than this. Did anyone make a call, send an email, or ask a board member at a knife show? No, it’s more fun to gossip and point fingers for a couple of years. Of course when I suggested that we actually ask someone who would know, the question was answered in exactly 3 hours and 48 minutes and all of conjecture was put to rest.

Sorry to pick on you Bobby but you provided a good example of my point.

More than one comment was made that part of the problem was that the Guild had not made people feel welcome. How welcome do you think I, or any Guild member, have felt here in the last couple of days? Yes, several people have welcomed me and I sincerely appreciate it. Others have gone out of their way to take a posting that started out with my expressing my enjoyment of the Guild show by saying “What a great show!” and degraded it into accusations, innuendo, opening old wounds and personal attacks.

Yes, some good ideas did come out of it but those ideas could have just as easily been extracted in a friendly and respectful manner. Probably more ideas would have been discussed if more people had felt that they could speak without becoming a target. It seems we had a lot more readers than posters. The “tough love” BS is just an excuse to get a few more shots in.

If people really want to work from lessons learned, mend the fences and cultivate some synergy that will benefit all of us, then drop all of posturing and just talk in a respectful manner with an open mind. Nothing is going to be accomplished if we cannot do that.
 
Just a word to let you all know that the Board of Directors of the Knifemakers' Guild has conferred via conference call and we will be acknowledging your contributions shortly. Thanks for your concern on our behalf and your patience.

Kevin

www.knifemakersguild.com
 
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