what's wrong whit Buck Knives?

[pinnah]

They have and are still going for that customer base because that's were the largest volume is.

That's incomplete to the point of being inaccurate. Yes, Buck offers knives at a low price point, as do many other manufacturers. But Buck is also going for high end hunters with their top-end hunting knives and is going after collectors with high end and limited run variants of the their traditional patterns.

That's outside the forums etc... Out there in the real world were ave Joe Billy Bob is buying knives.

Yes, and out there, in the real world, high-end buyers and collectors are also buying Bucks for good reason.

In the forum, my assertion remains true. You and others are incorrectly dismissing the Buck 110 as a low-end knife due to it's price point.

Price point <> quality. It might help you to take a marketing class or to work in marketing for a bit to understand why these are different. Some reading to get you started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies

Price point <> quality. It might help you take some engineering classes or to work in industrial production for a bit to understand why these are different. There are times when production capabilities, volume and materials come together to provide a real value to the end customer. This explains why a $28 Walmart Buck 110 is actually a better knife than a GEC #42 Missouri Trader with a 1095 and micarta scales, despite costing less than 1/3 of the price of the GEC.

If you want to bust Buck's chops for producing "low-end" knives, point to the Bucklite Max or Bantam lines. The frames are horribly weak. Just awful. Nice blades but horrible frames.

If Buck jacked the prices the standard 110 it would likely kill their sales figures and people would be looking for knives in the old price range.

I disagree. The trick is to leverage brand identity (by protecting your core products) and using that to drive sales in your lower price point knives. Buck needs to get the design and QC of their low-end frames under control. They have and have had plenty of lines to offer in the $30 or less price range. IMO, they need to
a) reconsider their materials choices for their linerless frames (more like the original Bucklite)
b) bring back a thinner version of the liner Ecolite with beefed up pivots
c) sort out the production issues with the Spitfire/Slimline knives (like they did with the Vantage)
d) keep the prices of the Buck 110 just high enough to protect it's value proposition.

 

[singularity35]

that's the bottom line, sounds like a good knife. "Budget" knife is the more emotional/subjective part.

You have it backwards, even Sal calls it the budget line. But I guess you know better than the guy who made it...

 

[Duane Sanders]

Failure?

I am trying to be realistic NOT NEGATIVE, there is a large difference.

I understand you are confused if these tests someone else was telling me about were reality based then I believe you would be right. People aren't buying them based on a test. They are buying them on reputation and no test will ever out do a solid reputation. Does not get more realistic than that on the 110 topic.

Just pointing out to an unsuspecting passer by who finds this on google that judging this knife in this case on its price is the worst possible thing you can do if you are looking for a solid reliable working knife. I'm sure everyone else understands this. Nothing personal, I'm just making a more realistic statement compared to yours.

So, Duane...instead of just making claims you have pulled out of nowhere again, how about actually telling us what you think is "going on" with Ankerson's comments? What's the vast conspiracy this time?

Do you have atleast an opinion?

Do not worry about our conversation, the two of us will handle that. Your instigating constantly is tiring. Your agenda in this case will not be met.

By all means please contribute though.

 

[Ankerson]

That's incomplete to the point of being inaccurate. Yes, Buck offers knives at a low price point, as do many other manufacturers. But Buck is also going for high end hunters with their top-end hunting knives and is going after collectors with high end and limited run variants of the their traditional patterns.

I addressed that before.... Guess you missed it....

Yes, and out there, in the real world, high-end buyers and collectors are also buying Bucks for good reason.

Addressed that also before....

In the forum, my assertion remains true. You and others are incorrectly dismissing the Buck 110 as a low-end knife due to it's price point.

It is lower end... Get over it....

Price point <> quality. It might help you to take a marketing class or to work in marketing for a bit to understand why these are different. Some reading to get you started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies

I went to College as a Management Major and most of my life has been spend in retail, marketing etc...

Price point <> quality. It might help you take some engineering classes or to work in industrial production for a bit to understand why these are different. There are times when production capabilities, volume and materials come together to provide a real value to the end customer. This explains why a $28 Walmart Buck 110 is actually a better knife than a GEC #42 Missouri Trader with a 1095 and micarta scales, despite costing less than 1/3 of the price of the GEC.

I know how it works...

If you want to bust Buck's chops for producing "low-end" knives, point to the Bucklite Max or Bantam lines. The frames are horribly weak. Just awful. Nice blades but horrible frames.

Don't look at those..

I disagree. The trick is to leverage brand identity (by protecting your core products) and using that to drive sales in your lower price point knives. Buck needs to get the design and QC of their low-end frames under control. They have and have had plenty of lines to offer in the $30 or less price range. IMO, they need to
a) reconsider their materials choices for their linerless frames (more like the original Bucklite)
b) bring back a thinner version of the liner Ecolite with beefed up pivots
c) sort out the production issues with the Spitfire/Slimline knives (like they did with the Vantage)
d) keep the prices of the Buck 110 just high enough to protect it's value proposition.

For the masses it's MOSTLY about price and that's it when it comes to the knife industry, that is why the lower end models sell the most. Also why the counterfeits and flea market knives sell so well.

It's all about the target market in the end, low price is king because that's what 80% of the market looks at 1st before anything else. Reason why there is so much garbage out there on the market.

Target the lower end market because that's were the largest part of the volume will be along with repeat business when the products wear out.

Unless there is some sort of gadget influence attached to the product like Smart Phones, I-PADS and the like or emotional attachment like automobiles etc. Then they can charge pretty much what they want for the most part depending on what the product is.

 

[Ankerson]

I understand you are confused if these tests someone else was telling me about were reality based then I believe you would be right. People aren't buying them based on a test. They are buying them on reputation and no test will ever out do a solid reputation. Does not get more realistic than that on the 110 topic.

Just pointing out to an unsuspecting passer by who finds this on google that judging this knife in this case on its price is the worst possible thing you can do if you are looking for a solid reliable working knife. I'm sure everyone else understands this. Nothing personal, I'm just making a more realistic statement compared to yours.

The 110 was the 1st one of it's type that actually sold well, Buck set their target market right from the beginning for that model and the 112.

Going after the Joe Averages, smart move on Buck's part.

And they kept the pricing low for the standard model even to this day, smart move....

Like I said before, it's a functional knife, always has been, but seriously dated by today's standards and materials.

If they would lighten it up a lot, change to screw construction for the pivot at least it would improve it a lot. The price would likely go up somewhat though so that might not be a good thing looking at their target market.

 

[stabman]

This Buck is pretty sweet.

 

[Cobalt]

This Buck is pretty sweet.

Yes it is. Probably tougher that most buck fixed blades, lol

 

[AusLoX]

A hyundai will get you where you wanna go. So will a Ferrari. Which one has better quality?

Apples and oranges are both edible, but why compare them? Why are people comparing knives in totally different categories? The topic is about steel used in bucks. Price is not directly related to quality, if I put diamonds on a knife it will vastly increase the value. Who cares?

 

[pinnah]

Apples and oranges are both edible, but why compare them? Why are people comparing knives in totally different categories? The topic is about steel used in bucks. Price is not directly related to quality, if I put diamonds on a knife it will vastly increase the value. Who cares?

^^ This ^^

Here is a knife with a street price of well over $100.

Nice knife. Made of 1095, which is entirely appropriate for this style of knife.

Here is a Buck with a street price (with careful shopping, sometimes at *Mart stores) of less than $40.

This is one is made from Buck's 420HC, which has the same basic performance qualities as 1095 without as much problem with rust.

Where is the difference in quality? There isn't any.

 

[sams]

good post pinnah.
to answer the "question" there is nothing wrong with Buck knives. everything else brought up is "beside the point, period."

 

[Ankerson]

Apples and oranges are both edible, but why compare them? Why are people comparing knives in totally different categories? The topic is about steel used in bucks. Price is not directly related to quality, if I put diamonds on a knife it will vastly increase the value. Who cares?

How about comparing a Yugo to a Civic....

Price doesn't have anything to do with quality.....

Sometimes people are just too funny. ROFL

YU-GO $4,995...... ROFL

 

[Badhammer]

Hello to everyone,
In the past i owned a couple of Buck Knives. An 110 folder and an 119 fixed blade. Back then i found this a set of high quality made EDC knives. Anyway, daydreaming about the chop,cut and other "jobs" which the 119 did without any complains about a premature blade dulness, i looked up to (maybe) buy a new 119. I remember that the blade of the 119 was made of ,at least, 440C steel. Take a look at the official Buck website learned me that the same 119 nowadays is made of an 420HC quality. Earlier I read that the standard steel used by Buck was 425 modified. By nature i don't take any advantage of the,sometimes,too positive comments. Also those from the 119 on the official website.

Is Buck also doing a silent downgrade of materials to overcome the so called "crisis"?

Not sure why this thread is as long as it is but to answer your question which at least Dave Martin touched on, Buck has been using 420HC as their standard production steel since 1992, (23 years) so no they aren't doing some kind of silent downgrade. The 425M was used between the original 440C and the current 420HC. A new 110 and 119 should serve you just fine.

 

[jill jackson]

How about comparing a Yugo to a Civic....

Price doesn't have anything to do with quality.....

Sometimes people are just too funny. ROFL

YU-GO $4,995...... ROFL

You're too high on the yugo
[video=youtube;-MknuRE2Bcg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MknuRE2Bcg[/video]

 

[Ankerson]

And This......

View attachment 590465


Compared to this.....

View attachment 590466

But price has nothing to do with quality you know.....

 

[Ankerson]

You're too high on the yugo
[video=youtube;-MknuRE2Bcg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MknuRE2Bcg[/video]

Yeah I know about the commercial, but they actually sold closer to $4995 from the few people I knew that bought them.

 

[pinnah]

Price doesn't have anything to do with quality.....

Sometimes people are just too funny. ROFL

Nobody said that.

Jim, you occasionally make some very good observations. Unfortunately, they are obscured by some overly simplistic assertions that you continue to repeat, including the "you get what you pay for" idea.

Quality is not determined by price. Three are plenty of examples of high priced knives (and cars and any other manufactured good) that are junk from a performance and engineering standpoint. And there are plenty of examples of low priced knives (and cars and many other manufactured goods) that meet and exceed the needs of the user for a very low price. In general, these low priced, high performing and high value goods result from a combination of economies of scale and high volume production capabilities along with a happy coincidence of low cost materials that still exceed the user's needs.

Two examples....

GEC #42 Missouri Trader. 1095 steel. Street price of about $90.

Buck 110. 420HC steel. Street price of about $30.

By your "you get what you pay for" standard, the GEC should be a higher quality knife. Can you describe the ways that the GEC 42 is a better knife?

From a strictly engineering standpoint, the Buck 110 is better in every way (unless the user prefers a flat ground blade). The GEC #42 is a largely handmade knife and like all handmade objects, has a wider range of QC, particularly with respect to lock up. The Buck is made in a highly automated manner which drives down both QC issues and price.

Please let me stop another refrain before it starts and that is your on-going dismissal of fine-grained steels as a category. With all due respect to your rope cutting hobby, there are use cases in which fine-grained steel makes sense and there are just too many educated knife buyers (including the fans of ESEE and Becker knives) who continue to prefer fine grained steels.

Again, you make some excellent points. I agree completely that Buck should do a version of the 110/112 family of knives that is thinner and with a modern adjustable pivot. They should also add a triad lock style stop pin while they're at it.

But the validity of your points are clouded over by your other over stated positions.

 

[Ankerson]

Or this....




Compared to this....



But you know price doesn't have anything to do with it......

 

[mael333ca]

^^ This ^^

Here is a knife with a street price of well over $100.

Nice knife. Made of 1095, which is entirely appropriate for this style of knife.

Here is a Buck with a street price (with careful shopping, sometimes at *Mart stores) of less than $40.

This is one is made from Buck's 420HC, which has the same basic performance qualities as 1095 without as much problem with rust.

Where is the difference in quality? There isn't any.

420HC...the same performance as 1095?!? dude!!!!! lol you clearly have no experience with 1095 I take it...

 

[pinnah]

420HC...the same performance as 1095?!? dude!!!!! lol you clearly have no experience with 1095 I take it...

I've tons of experience with both, actually.

Can you describe performance difference you see between 1095 and 420HC, assuming heat treat to similar Rc levels?

 

[cchu518]

What this thread represents is touching a nerve. Buck has at one time been a fan favorite, a gateway to all knife nutters. Anyone who has seen anyone blade flick a 110 back in the day had the exact same instance of awe as I did watching my big brother do it in 1982.

That said Buck could evolve a little and tighten up production quality/ff to mostly very serviceable products.

I am as critical of Buck as I am with GEC and like the fans of both makers many are able to see beyond the imperfections to still like the brands.

For what it's worth the fit and finish on my tenacious was hella lot better than my buck Vantage. The steel on the other hand are comparable. Buck's heat treat is consistent and solid as are most 8cr13mov makers these days, crkt notwithstanding.