what's wrong whit Buck Knives?

[Ankerson]

Nobody said that.

Jim, you occasionally make some very good observations. Unfortunately, they are obscured by some overly simplistic assertions that you continue to repeat, including the "you get what you pay for" idea.

Quality is not determined by price. Three are plenty of examples of high priced knives (and cars and any other manufactured good) that are junk from a performance and engineering standpoint. And there are plenty of examples of low priced knives (and cars and many other manufactured goods) that meet and exceed the needs of the user for a very low price. In general, these low priced, high performing and high value goods result from a combination of economies of scale and high volume production capabilities along with a happy coincidence of low cost materials that still exceed the user's needs.

Two examples....

GEC #42 Missouri Trader. 1095 steel. Street price of about $90.

Buck 110. 420HC steel. Street price of about $30.

By your "you get what you pay for" standard, the GEC should be a higher quality knife. Can you describe the ways that the GEC 42 is a better knife?

From a strictly engineering standpoint, the Buck 110 is better in every way (unless the user prefers a flat ground blade). The GEC #42 is a largely handmade knife and like all handmade objects, has a wider range of QC, particularly with respect to lock up. The Buck is made in a highly automated manner which drives down both QC issues and price.

Please let me stop another refrain before it starts and that is your on-going dismissal of fine-grained steels as a category. With all due respect to your rope cutting hobby, there are use cases in which fine-grained steel makes sense and there are just too many educated knife buyers (including the fans of ESEE and Becker knives) who continue to prefer fine grained steels.

Again, you make some excellent points. I agree completely that Buck should do a version of the 110/112 family of knives that is thinner and with a modern adjustable pivot. They should also add a triad lock style stop pin while they're at it.

But the validity of your points are clouded over by your other over stated positions.

The main point I was making is one actually does get what they pay for, Buck is not giving anything away and or loosing money on every knife they make.

Automation does save money usually, the actual percentages will vary depending on the factory that does the actual work however.

The 110 etc is a functional knife like I have said all along, but people aren't getting something for nothing, that really doesn't exist.

Never really said anything about the steel in this thread, but I would go with a Custom Shop knife, a 501 most likely in S30V over the other choice.

 

[sharp_edge]

^^ This ^^

Here is a knife with a street price of well over $100.

Nice knife. Made of 1095, which is entirely appropriate for this style of knife.

Here is a Buck with a street price (with careful shopping, sometimes at *Mart stores) of less than $40.

This is one is made from Buck's 420HC, which has the same basic performance qualities as 1095 without as much problem with rust.

Where is the difference in quality? There isn't any.

I happen to have both knives. While the quality is very good for both, their tangs are obviously different. I think it's safe to say that the tang of 119 is easier to break than that of the esee 6. Also, I am not sure if the performance of the two steel is the same.

 

[Ankerson]

I happen to have both knives. While the quality is very good for both, their tangs are obviously different. I think it's safe to say that the tang of 119 is easier to break than that of the esee 6. Also, I am not sure if the performance of the two steel is the same.

Two totally different types of knives with completely different design functions/intended uses etc.

Like comparing a tank to a Honda Civic.

For my personal uses I would pick the 119 over the EESE.

 

[mael333ca]

I've tons of experience with both, actually.

Can you describe performance difference you see between 1095 and 420HC, assuming heat treat to similar Rc levels?

ok, well depending on the actual use, you may not see a difference, but get into wood carving and it's night and day between the two. In regards to kitchen use and meat processing, I guess they would perform just about the same in regards to human perception.

You can't really compare the 119 and the esse 6, as they have different design applications. But I do have a 119, that I got for 30$ and one 124 for 80$...those where killer deals I could not pass over. There are great knives for the money, they make great all around tools, but they are not in the same league as esse knives. Even my punk is not on par sadly. That one I regret having gotten over an esse, but it is a adequate blade nonetheless.

 

[AusLoX]

How about comparing a Yugo to a Civic....

Price doesn't have anything to do with quality.....

Sometimes people are just too funny. ROFL

YU-GO $4,995...... ROFL

A 4 bedroom house in Orange County CA is about $500k. An 8 bedroom house with higher quality materials used in the Midwest is half that. So you're example doesn't work. Just because something is expensive doesn't make it high quality. Also, if I was to make the same knife that buck makes it would cost a lot more than it will cost buck to make it. Economies of scale. So again high price doesn't mean high quality. They have sold north of 13 million buck 110's to date. If the knife was that awful they would be out of business. They make a lot more money than most of the high end knife companies added together, so I think they know what they're doing. If you want higher quality materials, they offer them. So where is the real complaint? My buck 110 in 5160 with the Bos HT was $59 shipped to my door. It will outperform many knives in that price range, giving the 110 a "higher value". Value is the price/performance variance in this case.

 

[singularity35]

A 4 bedroom house in Orange County CA is about $500k. An 8 bedroom house with higher quality materials used in the Midwest is half that. So you're example doesn't work. Just because something is expensive doesn't make it high quality. Also, if I was to make the same knife that buck makes it would cost a lot more than it will cost buck to make it. Economies of scale. So again high price doesn't mean high quality. They have sold north of 13 million buck 110's to date. If the knife was that awful they would be out of business. They make a lot more money than most of the high end knife companies added together, so I think they know what they're doing. If you want higher quality materials, they offer them. So where is the real complaint? My buck 110 in 5160 with the Bos HT was $59 shipped to my door. It will outperform many knives in that price range, giving the 110 a "higher value". Value is the price/performance variance in this case.

Both civic and yugo are the same cars wherever they are. Houses are dependent on location...

 

[AusLoX]

Both civic and yugo are the same cars wherever they are. Houses are dependent on location...

Obviously. All quality being equal: if I have a cheaper way of making an item then the price will be lower or or I will collect a higher profit. The market will correct itself. But just because I have a cheaper way of making the same quality product (ultimately making the price lower to the end user) doesn't make the product less quality even though it's a lower price.

Buck sells a lot of knives so they can purchase materials in bulk; driving the price down

 

[singularity35]

Obviously. All quality being equal: if I have a cheaper way of making an item then the price will be lower or or I will collect a higher profit. The market will correct itself. But just because I have a cheaper way of making the same quality product (ultimately making the price lower to the end user) doesn't make the product less quality even though it's a lower price.

Buck sells a lot of knives so they can purchase materials in bulk; driving the price down

I think you misunderstood. A civic is a better can than a yugo wherever they are. All other things being equal.

 

[Cobalt]

I've tons of experience with both, actually.

Can you describe performance difference you see between 1095 and 420HC, assuming heat treat to similar Rc levels?

So do I, tons of experience and the only thing that 420hc has over 1095 is corrosion resistance. 1095 beats it in all other categories, toughness, and edge retention. Honestly, nmy 420hc knives have never impressed me with their edge holding.

 

[AusLoX]

I think you misunderstood. A civic is a better can than a yugo wherever they are. All other things being equal.

Yes, I understand that your one example may work in your favor. And many times price will reflect quality, but I'm not speaking in absolutes. Process, economies of scale, and cost of labor all impact price; but may keep the same or improve quality. Buck is one company who has been able to lower price in all three areas while maintaining "quality".

The point is that buck makes a quality product for a decent price giving the knives enormous value which contributes to the companies longevity and higher number of sales than any other knife in its category.

 

[Riley12]

Back when I was a kid buck and old timer knives were considered almost a necessity by the generations before me. They were what you bought, not if, but when it came time to buying a pocket knife.

I look back and I don't really know if they were any better then than they are now regardless of the steel used. They made their bones back in the day and stuck with it. They never really evolved with the times. I would carry a buck or old timer now if I was forced into it, but if I had a choice, I'd carry a SAK or opinel first knowing what I know now. Well, that's if they were the only choices. If I had to choose from anything on, say, Knifecenter, buck would be close to the last one I'd choose. I really don't understand why people keep buying bucks if they know there's more on the market. I can only assume that people who advocate for Buck either 1) don't know there's anything better[and there's a lot] or 2) they're buying based on memories and nostalgia.

I like Ford model A's for what they are and what they did for the automobile industry but I'd be a fool if I said they could stand up in any category to a 2016 Aston Martin. Or the latest ford Fiesta, for that matter, regarding actual real world performance.

I was gonna say the same thing, comparing them to cars. I appreciate buck for what they are, but the knife industry has come a long way since the 60's. I'd like to see the 110 modernized, maybe Micarta instead of wood, and a thumb stud?

Ps: I drive the latest Ford Fiesta and I can attest that it performs very well.

 

[MeanBeaver]

420HC...the same performance as 1095?!? dude!!!!! lol you clearly have no experience with 1095 I take it...

I have experience with both. Buck's 420hc takes a nice fine edge easily and tends to hold it longer. Kabar's 1095 takes a little more work to get an edge that I'm satisfied with. 1095 is tougher, no doubt about that. In this case (folder), I would rather have 420hc. Rust resistance is pretty important for me at least in a folder.
i For a fixed blade it's a toss up. I very much like good 1095 and 420hc.

 

[AusLoX]

I was gonna say the same thing, comparing them to cars. I appreciate buck for what they are, but the knife industry has come a long way since the 60's. I'd like to see the 110 modernized, maybe Micarta instead of wood, and a thumb stud?

Ps: I drive the latest Ford Fiesta and I can attest that it performs very well.

The materials are available, I'm not entirely sure if Buck offers them all, but it can be done. A friend of mine had a 110 with a clip taped, s30v blade, micarta, and a thumb stud bolt on style. Now, i don't think the micarta was from factory and nor was the clip, but the s30v blade was factory. The thumb stud was relatively cheap.

Back to the car example. There are entire aftermarket companies built around cars like the civic and so on. There isn't enough demand to make 100 different civic models with all the upgrades that people want, so that's where aftermarket companies step in. Buck offers limited models from time to time with various materials on them.

We all understand that there are higher quality knives, but the original post was comparing quality from older bucks to newer bucks. IMO, not much has changed.

 

[Joe58]

Wow...sure seems to be a lot of hatin' on Buck. I'll bet some of you guys must go berserk when discussing the steel Victorinox uses.

I just think that Buck, and Vic, both have run a pretty successful business model, and are two of the worlds most successful and long lived knife makers. Must be doing something right. They both offer a decent bang for your dollar product that will serve you well if used and maintained properly. Without the ideas and designs that Buck brought us, I think, and I may be wrong, many other newer knife companies wouldn't exist.

Should I have a need for the current must have uber steel of the week, there are fortunately plenty of choices out there for your enjoyment. Once upon a time, 440C was supposed to be a super steel. Whatever that is. Seems to change fairly frequently. GEC seems to be doing quite well with plain old run of the mill 1095. Ancient steel by today's standards, but still very popular with consumers.

 

[singularity35]

Yes, I understand that your one example may work in your favor. And many times price will reflect quality, but I'm not speaking in absolutes. Process, economies of scale, and cost of labor all impact price; but may keep the same or improve quality. Buck is one company who has been able to lower price in all three areas while maintaining "quality".

The point is that buck makes a quality product for a decent price giving the knives enormous value which contributes to the companies longevity and higher number of sales than any other knife in its category.

As yours did for you. You were comparing prices of houses in different locations. Why not compare 2 houses in the same locations that have different price tags?

Ankerson is talking about an object that is whose price has nothing to do with the location of the object(unless you sell it in Siberia, maybe) and you presented an analogy that fails because the price of houses is very dependent on location(unless you sell it in Siberia too).

 

[pinnah]

So do I, tons of experience and the only thing that 420hc has over 1095 is corrosion resistance. 1095 beats it in all other categories, toughness, and edge retention. Honestly, nmy 420hc knives have never impressed me with their edge holding.

Whose 420HC are you using?

One of the things I've noticed is that 420HC is very different depending on who does the heat treat. Cases 420HC doesn't hold an edge (rolls easily) as Bucks. I've done a bunch of wood working with both Buck 420HC and Schrade USA 1095 and honestly, I can't tell the difference. I've also banged on both and I can't tell the difference in terms of toughness.

 

[AusLoX]

As yours did for you. You were comparing prices of houses in different locations. Why not compare 2 houses in the same locations that have different price tags?

Ankerson is talking about an object that is whose price has nothing to do with the location of the object(unless you sell it in Siberia, maybe) and you presented an analogy that fails because the price of houses is very dependent on location(unless you sell it in Siberia too).

 

[Cobalt]

Whose 420HC are you using?

One of the things I've noticed is that 420HC is very different depending on who does the heat treat. Cases 420HC doesn't hold an edge (rolls easily) as Bucks. I've done a bunch of wood working with both Buck 420HC and Schrade USA 1095 and honestly, I can't tell the difference. I've also banged on both and I can't tell the difference in terms of toughness.

Buck of course. Huge difference in toughness for sure.

 

[WuGod]

I think you misunderstood. A civic is a better can than a yugo wherever they are. All other things being equal.

Compare a Z06 Vette or Nissan GTR to a Ferrari or Astin Martin at 4x the price, both are faster, more reliable and cheaper to maintain for much less money. It's not all quality/performance that makes a price difference.
Hell get a Caddy CTSV and send it off to Hennessy and have a 4 door wagon that will smoke them and still be able to afford a nice vacation home in Montana.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

You know, Cold Steel was the company that brought me into knife collecting. Say what you will about their marketing, but I've built up a significant CS collection, and they've got some of the best QC, F&F, and out-of-box sharpness in the business. Because of that, I've got high standards and I'm very picky about my knives. I've also learned through experience that pinnah has a very valid point: you can't judge a knife's quality by its price. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, and sometimes you get something entirely different.

I decided to try Buck because of their great reputation and warranty. With a warranty like that, you can't really go wrong, and I've never ever heard of a Buck failing under normal or even hard use.

My first Buck was a standard 110. F&F left something to be desired (there was some side-to-side play), but the knife quickly grew on me and became a favorite. It felt dependable in my hands and never failed to do anything I've asked of it. I loved this knife, so I gave it to my best friend as a gift, hoping he would love it as much as I did.

Before I gave my 110 away, I decided to try a 119. Again, F&F left something to be desired, but the knife was otherwise solid and dependable. I wanted another 110 though, so I got one from the Custom Shoppe in S30V. It was absolutely perfect in every way, and is the single best cutter I own (even among a collection which includes knives that cost twice what I paid for it).

I also got a 301 because I wanted a stockman. I love it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Bucks are dependable, high-value options that perform way beyond their price point. There are lots of other knives like this from Mora, Opinel, and others. When I want to cut something, I have a tendency to reach for my Bucks first. I use them all the time, even though I own much more expensive knives. They're just that good.

Furthermore, in my experience, no production company that includes a leather sheath with a knife does it better than Buck. Buck's leather sheaths are exemplary.

All of this is just my personal experience. YMMV.

What I do not care for is Buck's religious marketing, but as they're not going all Chick Fil-A on their products, it doesn't bother me.