what's wrong whit Buck Knives?

[singularity35]

The CME Group is located in Chicago, and they set or 'fix' commodity prices on a daily basis. Free market economics has little to do with it. Walmart also has tremendous buying power, and is in many cases a 'bully' of a company.

So why do we always argue that the prices of sprint runs or limited editions are set by the market?

Besides, who do you think dictates the price of knives?

Haha, this is beyond ridiculous. When the high price of knives are discussed, the forum consensus is market forces. But when the low price of 110's are discussed, some evil genius is controlling the prices...

 

[sams]

people are trying to tell you the low price of a Buck folder does NOT mean low quality / bad knife. I think you know that and too stubborn to agree.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

So why do we always argue that the prices of sprint runs or limited editions are set by the market?

Besides, who do you think dictates the price of knives?

Haha, this is beyond ridiculous. When the high price of knives are discussed, the forum consensus is market forces. But when the low price of 110's are discussed, some evil genius is controlling the prices...

The companies that make the knives set the MSRP; dealers use the MSRP to determine their prices, and aftermarket prices are based roughly on those.

Yes, the prices are influenced by what people are willing to pay for a knife (especially the further along the chain the knives get from the original seller), but they are most certainly not wholly set by that.

 

[vanslem6]

So why do we always argue that the prices of sprint runs or limited editions are set by the market?

Besides, who do you think dictates the price of knives?

Haha, this is beyond ridiculous. When the high price of knives are discussed, the forum consensus is market forces. But when the low price of 110's are discussed, some evil genius is controlling the prices...

Sprint runs are a supply/demand, we both know that. But to simply say that commodity prices are dictated via market forces, is wrong. The Comex tells us how much we should pay for things - things like steel.
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/#ferrous

As far as what I think dictates the price of knives? Fiat currency. The same thing that dictates all things we buy….using fiat currency. If you want to get into more detail, search my name in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-a-couple-years-Prices-seem-insanely-high-now

As far as Buck knives go, I've never owned one and I have no desire to do so. I don't find them attractive in the least bit, I hear they're heavy, no clip, no 1 hand opening, no care. I don't know how much they cost, and frankly I don't care. But a free [commodity] market, we do not have. That's something I can (and will) discuss.

 

[singularity35]

Sprint runs are a supply/demand, we both know that. But to simply say that commodity prices are dictated via market forces, is wrong. The Comex tells us how much we should pay for things - things like steel.
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/#ferrous

As far as what I think dictates the price of knives? Fiat currency. The same thing that dictates all things we buy….using fiat currency. If you want to get into more detail, search my name in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-a-couple-years-Prices-seem-insanely-high-now

As far as Buck knives go, I've never owned one and I have no desire to do so. I don't find them attractive in the least bit, I hear they're heavy, no clip, no 1 hand opening, no care. I don't know how much they cost, and frankly I don't care. But a free [commodity] market, we do not have. That's something I can (and will) discuss.

Then you are presenting a straw man as bait. No, thanks.

So how do you think Buck sets their prices? Which is where the current discussion in this thread is.

Do you think Buck wouldn't charge as much as they could?

 

[vanslem6]

Then you are presenting a straw man as bait. No, thanks.

So how do you think Buck sets their prices? Which is where the current discussion in this thread is.

Do you think Buck wouldn't charge as much as they could?

I'm presenting nothing - simply pointed out some false info. Have a nice day, and enjoy your Buck knives.

 

[Revolverrodger]

I used to be a steel snob like you unitil I used my 420hc hard
Buck 420hc is excellent steel

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

420HC, particularly how Buck does it, is effectively a stainless version of low-alloy carbon steels. Overall ease of sharpening/edge retention and toughness are similar, but the corrosion resistance is higher. Is there more to it than that? Yes. But for users not doing quantitative testing you're not going to be able to tell much of a difference.

 

[jill jackson]

Maybe, Buck doesn't charge as much as they could, because they figure making 7 dollars per unit and selling loads, they come out better than, selling less making more. I'm sure the high volume plays a big factor in their business decision. Walmart does the same thing, makes less per unit than their competitors , but makes up for it in sheer volume.

 

[Ankerson]

Maybe, Buck doesn't charge as much as they could, because they figure making 7 dollars per unit and selling loads, they come out better than, selling less making more. I'm sure the high volume plays a big factor in their business decision. Walmart does the same thing, makes less per unit than their competitors , but makes up for it in sheer volume.

Last I heard WM has 5 different pricing structures and they depend basically on how much competition is around them and some other factors.

They go from fairly low to pretty freaking high from what I have heard (No competition).

 

[jill jackson]

Kinda like a guy I went to school with, he hooked up with aMexican connection started buying huge bales of weed. Sold it for about half of what everyone else did, turned over hundreds of pounds and cleaned up. Unfortunately for him he branched out into meth and wound up imprisoned. But, he indeed was literally rolling in the dough for a few years. :stupid:

 

[TAH]

What I do not care for is Buck's religious marketing, but as they're not going all Chick Fil-A on their products, it doesn't bother me.

Why is this even necessary to point out? It is their family company and values and it has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[jill jackson]

They don't market religion, they just include a leaflet explaining how they made God their head chairman and put all the decisions in his hands, everything has always worked out for them they say. That is more just giving the good Lord an at a boy, than trying to push their beliefs on buyers.

 

[badluckjones]

Yesterday i ordered a brand new 119 for Euro 85,-.Through lessons learned with my previous one, i first sandblast the handle a bit to get it more rougher to improve the grip. Second job is to hone the edges to both 25 degrees angle. Using the diamond Gatco sharpening kit. This, i think, will contribute to an acceptable EDC knife. Unknown if the leather sheat is still similair to the "old"one. The 119 will be treated a little more rougher than usual, to get a quicker profile of the used 420 steel..

 

[TAH]

They don't market religion, they just include a leaflet explaining how they made God their head chairman and put all the decisions in his hands, everything has always worked out for them they say. That is more just giving the good Lord an at a boy, than trying to push their beliefs on buyers.

:thumbup:

 

[AusLoX]

Sprint runs are a supply/demand, we both know that. But to simply say that commodity prices are dictated via market forces, is wrong. The Comex tells us how much we should pay for things - things like steel.
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/#ferrous

As far as what I think dictates the price of knives? Fiat currency. The same thing that dictates all things we buy….using fiat currency. If you want to get into more detail, search my name in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-a-couple-years-Prices-seem-insanely-high-now

As far as Buck knives go, I've never owned one and I have no desire to do so. I don't find them attractive in the least bit, I hear they're heavy, no clip, no 1 hand opening, no care. I don't know how much they cost, and frankly I don't care. But a free [commodity] market, we do not have. That's something I can (and will) discuss.

What does fiat currency have to do with anything? Every country on earth uses a fiat currency. No one is on the gold standard because it's a horrible system.

Don't take "free market" the wrong way. Just like supply-side economics, free market is a term used to describe a political or ideological viewpoint on policy and is not a field within economics.

Obviously we don't have 100% free market due to the gov't intervention. But the basic concept is there.

 

[Ankerson]

So why do we always argue that the prices of sprint runs or limited editions are set by the market?

Besides, who do you think dictates the price of knives?

Haha, this is beyond ridiculous. When the high price of knives are discussed, the forum consensus is market forces. But when the low price of 110's are discussed, some evil genius is controlling the prices...

It's always amusing reading when threads are basically about cost.

And that's basic discussions about cost across most types of products in general.

The pricing structure is basically dependent on what the target market is for the individual products, then they are designed to fit into that market.

And that's why there are different grades and or levels of products across the board.

And also why a lot of market research is typically done along with human behavior studies and assorted other types of research.

 

[pinnah]

Buck of course. Huge difference in toughness for sure.

Cobalt, I just don't see it in my use.

Most of my knives are 420HC, 1095 or 12C27 hardened in the 58-59Rc range. Among these knives, discussing difference in edge retention or toughness is like discussing difference the 1/4 mile speed or fuel mileage among V-8 powered 1/4 ton pick up trucks. Or the difference between Sierra Nevada and Longunitas IPA.

I can tell an immediate and obvious difference between these steels and 440C.

I can tell an immediate and obvious difference between these steels at 58Rc and these steels at 56Rc (or lower).

But I can't tell any meaningful difference in use between these steels in use when they have similar Rc.

Knives that I've used with this type of steel hardened at the 58Rc (or higher) range include: many Bucks (420HC), many Opinels (12C27), a Schrade-Walden H-15 (1095), several Schrade USA (1095), Mora Companions (both 1095 and 12C27, the latter of which may be closer to 57Rc). I batton with the fixed blades (and the Opinels, occasionally) and do more wood carving that many folks do. I use them for shop use (including cutting down metal cans and flashing). If there are any differences in these steels, they aren't differences that show up in my use.

Knives that I've used with this type of steel hardened at 56Rc (or lower) include: several Case knives (420HC), Opinel Carbone (1086 at 56Rc), Victorinox Inox (55Rc) and Buck's 420J2 (55Rc, if that). At lower Rc levels, I think there is a bigger difference between the carbon steels and the stainless of this type. I find that soft carbon holds an edge better and hones up cleanly. Soft stainless of this sort dulls fast and is more prone to form wire edges when honing. IME, the Victorinox Inox and Buck's 420J2 are stand out clunkers.

If people want to bust Buck's chops for using inferior materials to meet a price point, their 420J2 slip joints are the right target. Just awful.

I would love to hear more about where you see 1095 as being tougher than Buck's 420HC. I don't deny it. Just noting that I don't see it in my use and I'm not particularly easy on them.

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt, I just don't see it in my use.

Most of my knives are 420HC, 1095 or 12C27 hardened in the 58-59Rc range. Among these knives, discussing difference in edge retention or toughness is like discussing difference the 1/4 mile speed or fuel mileage among V-8 powered 1/4 ton pick up trucks. Or the difference between Sierra Nevada and Longunitas IPA.

I can tell an immediate and obvious difference between these steels and 440C.

I can tell an immediate and obvious difference between these steels at 58Rc and these steels at 56Rc (or lower).

But I can't tell any meaningful difference in use between these steels in use when they have similar Rc.

Knives that I've used with this type of steel hardened at the 58Rc (or higher) range include: many Bucks (420HC), many Opinels (12C27), a Schrade-Walden H-15 (1095), several Schrade USA (1095), Mora Companions (both 1095 and 12C27, the latter of which may be closer to 57Rc). I batton with the fixed blades (and the Opinels, occasionally) and do more wood carving that many folks do. I use them for shop use (including cutting down metal cans and flashing). If there are any differences in these steels, they aren't differences that show up in my use.

Knives that I've used with this type of steel hardened at 56Rc (or lower) include: several Case knives (420HC), Opinel Carbone (1086 at 56Rc), Victorinox Inox (55Rc) and Buck's 420J2 (55Rc, if that). At lower Rc levels, I think there is a bigger difference between the carbon steels and the stainless of this type. I find that soft carbon holds an edge better and hones up cleanly. Soft stainless of this sort dulls fast and is more prone to form wire edges when honing. IME, the Victorinox Inox and Buck's 420J2 are stand out clunkers.

If people want to bust Buck's chops for using inferior materials to meet a price point, their 420J2 slip joints are the right target. Just awful.

I would love to hear more about where you see 1095 as being tougher than Buck's 420HC. I don't deny it. Just noting that I don't see it in my use and I'm not particularly easy on them.

It could be the 1095 you own. Most of my experience with 1095 has been ESEE. So like Buck, ESEE uses a well known quality HT. I will admit that one thing I like about 420hc is that it tends to chip less than most other stainless steels. And it holds a decent edge. But it definitely blunts faster than my 1095 blades in all materials that I have cut with both, which is mainly wood and card board. The ESEE 1095 is very impressive and when you look at the damage it can take, it is far more than the Buck. Having said that, the Buck nighthawks I had were pretty tough for a stainless blades. Far tougher than most of my other stainless blades.

 

[pinnah]

It's always amusing reading when threads are basically about cost.

And that's basic discussions about cost across most types of products in general.

I'm reminded of this Churchill quote...

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

--Winston Churchill


You and Singularity are the ones insisting that cost is determinative of quality. You've yet to make your case.

Please describe, in detail and without referring to cost, the quality differences between a Buck 110 (420HC, $30), a GEC #42 Micarta (1095, $95) and a Spyderco Byrd Cara Cara 2 Ti (8Cr13MoV, $65).

Or if you prefer, describe in detail and without referring to cost, the quality differences between a Buck 119 or Reaper, an ESEE 6 and a Becker BK16.

When you take away cost and if you set aside difference in designs... what you are left with to discuss is materials and construction quality. So where's the difference in material and construction quality among these knives to account for a 2 to 3 times cost increase if, as you repeatedly insist, the differences are cost related?