what's wrong whit Buck Knives?

[Ankerson]

I'm reminded of this Churchill quote...

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

--Winston Churchill


You and Singularity are the ones insisting that cost is determinative of quality. You've yet to make your case.

Please describe, in detail and without referring to cost, the quality differences between a Buck 110 (420HC, $30), a GEC #42 Micarta (1095, $95) and a Spyderco Byrd Cara Cara 2 Ti (8Cr13MoV, $65).

Or if you prefer, describe in detail and without referring to cost, the quality differences between a Buck 119 or Reaper, an ESEE 6 and a Becker BK16.

When you take away cost and if you set aside difference in designs... what you are left with to discuss is materials and construction quality. So where's the difference in material and construction quality among these knives to account for a 2 to 3 times cost increase if, as you repeatedly insist, the differences are cost related?

You haven't sat in on the marketing and research seminars that I have over the past 20 years.

You are confused I can tell because you are thinking like a customer.

My thought process is NOT the same.

 

[pinnah]

You haven't sat in on the marketing and research seminars that I have over the past 20 years.

You are confused I can tell because you are thinking like a customer.

My thought process is NOT the same.

I guess the marketing and research seminars I've sat in for the past.. 30 years have been different ones. I'm guessing the engineering courses I've taken and taught are probably different too.

My career in a single line... engineer -> product management -> marketing -> engineering

You continue to avoid my question.

Please describe the quality differences between a $30 Buck 110, a $90 GEC Micarta #42 and a $60 Spyderco Cara Cara 2 Ti.

Price has a bearing on quality, but does not determine it.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

As I like to say, it's true that you commonly get what you pay for...but chances are some of what you're paying for are factors not directly tied to performance.

 

[pinnah]

It could be the 1095 you own. Most of my experience with 1095 has been ESEE. So like Buck, ESEE uses a well known quality HT. I will admit that one thing I like about 420hc is that it tends to chip less than most other stainless steels. And it holds a decent edge. But it definitely blunts faster than my 1095 blades in all materials that I have cut with both, which is mainly wood and card board. The ESEE 1095 is very impressive and when you look at the damage it can take, it is far more than the Buck. Having said that, the Buck nighthawks I had were pretty tough for a stainless blades. Far tougher than most of my other stainless blades.

Can you say more about the damage you've seen when using your Bucks? The more specifics the better in terms of my understanding. I've not been able to damage them.

This said... I only use my 110 (and similar folders) for EDC and wood carving tasks. I don't baton them. In general, I wouldn't baton a Buck fixed blade because my experience with batoning a hollow grind knife is recipe for a damaged, stuck knife. Hollow grinds are very thin behind the edge and thus prone to more damage and the sharp shoulder of the grind can bind in wood. Buck makes fine hunting knives but IMO those hollow ground hunting knives make horrible survival/bushcraft blades. Horses for courses.

I wonder about the edge fade you've experienced with your Bucks in cardboard compared to what you've seen with your ESEE. What I've found with steels of this kind (1095, 420HC, 12C27) when cutting abrasive materials like carpet or cardboard, is that they all loose sharpness at roughly the same rate (I can't tell which is best) and after that happens, performance depends on grind. If I'm cutting down old carpet, the hollow grind of the Buck will out cut the flat/convex blade of my Opinel because it's thinner behind the edge. But, if I'm cutting down cardboard, the Opinel will keep cutting longer because the shoulder of the Buck will drag on the cardboard while the flatter profile of the Opinel just keeps going even though the apex is toast.

I would expect your ESEE to out perform any 420HC Buck hollow grind in cardboard just on account of the grind (just like my Opinel does - for the same reason - geometry).

On the other hand, I'll wager that my old Buck 500 with 440C will outlast your ESEE in a cardboard test.

Interesting discussion. Please do say more about damage you've seen on your Bucks. Very interested to learn.

 

[pinnah]

As I like to say, it's true that you commonly get what you pay for...but chances are some of what you're paying for are factors not directly tied to performance.

Exactly right.

And this perfectly describes why the GEC #42 fetches $90 while the Buck 110 can be had for $30.

 

[mael333ca]

when cutting abrasive materials like carpet or cardboard, is that they all loose sharpness at roughly the same rate (I can't tell which is best

AH! I can say I have come to the same conclusion. I had used my Buck vantage select and my spyderco Gale Bradley to cut loads of gym carpet. so It was a similar enough grind of 420HC vs CPM-M4....one would think they would come miles apart in regards to edge holding...but it was not so. It was loosing the keenness after having cut about 3 -5 feet of carpet with the 420hc, but the CMP-M4 only lasted for about twice that length before it went down to a «working edge». I will admit this was a disappointment....

 

[Duane Sanders]

Can you say more about the damage you've seen when using your Bucks? The more specifics the better in terms of my understanding. I've not been able to damage them.

This said... I only use my 110 (and similar folders) for EDC and wood carving tasks. I don't baton them. In general, I wouldn't baton a Buck fixed blade because my experience with batoning a hollow grind knife is recipe for a damaged, stuck knife. Hollow grinds are very thin behind the edge and thus prone to more damage and the sharp shoulder of the grind can bind in wood. Buck makes fine hunting knives but IMO those hollow ground hunting knives make horrible survival/bushcraft blades. Horses for courses.

I wonder about the edge fade you've experienced with your Bucks in cardboard compared to what you've seen with your ESEE. What I've found with steels of this kind (1095, 420HC, 12C27) when cutting abrasive materials like carpet or cardboard, is that they all loose sharpness at roughly the same rate (I can't tell which is best) and after that happens, performance depends on grind. If I'm cutting down old carpet, the hollow grind of the Buck will out cut the flat/convex blade of my Opinel because it's thinner behind the edge. But, if I'm cutting down cardboard, the Opinel will keep cutting longer because the shoulder of the Buck will drag on the cardboard while the flatter profile of the Opinel just keeps going even though the apex is toast.

I would expect your ESEE to out perform any 420HC Buck hollow grind in cardboard just on account of the grind (just like my Opinel does - for the same reason - geometry).

On the other hand, I'll wager that my old Buck 500 with 440C will outlast your ESEE in a cardboard test.

Interesting discussion. Please do say more about damage you've seen on your Bucks. Very interested to learn.

I baton when needed with my reaper. I have experienced no damage or even a hint of it. Week and a half ago I felled three wrist thick trees to make a fire after we got caught in a short soaker fixing deer blinds to dry out at. Cross batoned them down, sawed to length then split with the reaper. Even though it did a lot of work before all of that it was still plenty sharp and undamaged to make a pile of fine tinder to ignite. The thin 5/32" blade slices through logs faster than any thicker knife I've used.

I know how to use a knife though. If one of them youtubers or work shop testers who have no real purpose for a knife were to try to recreate real use I'm sure they could make a test to show whatever they want as being "superior" to the reaper.

Just want to point out your use replies match mine extremely closely. A farmer down the road from me made me a knife from 1095 a few years ago after I helped him while injured. It's a real 59HRC and it holds an edge just ever so slightly longer. Really it's unnoticeable. If the reaper were the same I'm sure it would match it at 59HRC.

 

[SadSappySucker]

This thread needs more pics!

 

[JD Bear]

I really hate to say it fellas, but this post is making it sound like people who like Buck's are idiots because there are better materials out there. I CHOOSE to carry a 112 or 110 almost everyday, and I don't feel like less of a man because none that I own are S30V. I like the style, the weight, the steel and everything about them. I don't care about the marketing, I don't care about the latest super steel, and I don't care about the price. I don't understand why so many people that obviously don't carry the knives have such a strong opinion about them. I must be in the minority in this forum, but I'm neither a Navy Seal or a homesteader living off the grid so my knife is a work tool, not a survival tool. I have two jobs and two kids and I can still find time to clean up the edge on my 112 after a long week. Unless Buck starts making the blades out of Play-Doh, I'm going to keep using them.

 

[AusLoX]

Nothing wrong with quality IMO

 

[ncnurseryman]

I really hate to say it fellas, but this post is making it sound like people who like Buck's are idiots because there are better materials out there. I CHOOSE to carry a 112 or 110 almost everyday, and I don't feel like less of a man because none that I own are S30V. I like the style, the weight, the steel and everything about them. I don't care about the marketing, I don't care about the latest super steel, and I don't care about the price. I don't understand why so many people that obviously don't carry the knives have such a strong opinion about them. I must be in the minority in this forum, but I'm neither a Navy Seal or a homesteader living off the grid so my knife is a work tool, not a survival tool. I have two jobs and two kids and I can still find time to clean up the edge on my 112 after a long week. Unless Buck starts making the blades out of Play-Doh, I'm going to keep using them.

Amen, brother.

 

[vanslem6]

What does fiat currency have to do with anything? Every country on earth uses a fiat currency. No one is on the gold standard because it's a horrible system.

It has everything to do with it, and no, it's not a 'horrible system.' Lmao, it's a 'horrible system' for those that like to rob future generations, but can't because they can't create more gold out of thin air. The fact that we don't have a free market is not obvious to many people, believe it or not. Fiat currencies are horrible - they're based on debt and they rob us all of our purchasing power over time. Don't fret though, we'll be changing here very soon. The S is about to HTF. The Dollar index is nearing the 100 point mark - deflation before inflation.

Also, the term 'free market' shouldn't be used these days, as it simply doesn't exist. You either have it or you don't - all or nothing. Until someone can tell me exactly how much a gallon of gasoline costs (or any commodity for that matter), it's all false rhetoric.

 

[Ankerson]

I guess the marketing and research seminars I've sat in for the past.. 30 years have been different ones. I'm guessing the engineering courses I've taken and taught are probably different too.

My career in a single line... engineer -> product management -> marketing -> engineering

You continue to avoid my question.

Please describe the quality differences between a $30 Buck 110, a $90 GEC Micarta #42 and a $60 Spyderco Cara Cara 2 Ti.

Price has a bearing on quality, but does not determine it.

Then why are you thinking like a customer?

And you are clearly.....

 

[Ankerson]

As I like to say, it's true that you commonly get what you pay for...but chances are some of what you're paying for are factors not directly tied to performance.

Some perhaps as there can be a lot of variables involved in the process that will have an effect on the price per unit.

Like comparing a Sebenza to a TI Military for example.

 

[AusLoX]

It has everything to do with it, and no, it's not a 'horrible system.' Lmao, it's a 'horrible system' for those that like to rob future generations, but can't because they can't create more gold out of thin air. The fact that we don't have a free market is not obvious to many people, believe it or not. Fiat currencies are horrible - they're based on debt and they rob us all of our purchasing power over time. Don't fret though, we'll be changing here very soon. The S is about to HTF. The Dollar index is nearing the 100 point mark - deflation before inflation.

Also, the term 'free market' shouldn't be used these days, as it simply doesn't exist. You either have it or you don't - all or nothing. Until someone can tell me exactly how much a gallon of gasoline costs (or any commodity for that matter), it's all false rhetoric.

We will never go back to the gold standard. Ever. It won't work with a global economy. I really don't want to get deep into it. PM me if you would like to continue the convo. I'm a financial engineer. I've worked for black rock. Goldman. And now work for a private firm designing engineered investments. Dealing with Options and futures mostly. Without a doubt the gold standard cannot and will not ever work again. I'd bet my life on it with zero hedge.

 

[Ankerson]

I really hate to say it fellas, but this post is making it sound like people who like Buck's are idiots because there are better materials out there. I CHOOSE to carry a 112 or 110 almost everyday, and I don't feel like less of a man because none that I own are S30V. I like the style, the weight, the steel and everything about them. I don't care about the marketing, I don't care about the latest super steel, and I don't care about the price. I don't understand why so many people that obviously don't carry the knives have such a strong opinion about them. I must be in the minority in this forum, but I'm neither a Navy Seal or a homesteader living off the grid so my knife is a work tool, not a survival tool. I have two jobs and two kids and I can still find time to clean up the edge on my 112 after a long week. Unless Buck starts making the blades out of Play-Doh, I'm going to keep using them.

That's not what anyone is saying.

They are in your price range so that's what you buy.

The real problem comes in when some want to try and make them sound like they are more than they really are.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Some perhaps as there can be a lot of variables involved in the process that will have an effect on the price per unit.

Like comparing a Sebenza to a TI Military for example.

In a hyperbolic example, I could by a solid gold ingot that's marketed as a knife, but in every respect the money I'd be spending would not be materially increasing the performance of the product as a knife. On a more realistic basis, it could be paying for a more expensive fad steel that is actually a poor choice for the intended application of the tool, for ornamental elements, fanciful mechanisms or blade shapes that chiefly provide novelty, country of origin, crazy compound grinds that don't actually make the tool work better (in fact, sometimes worse), prestige, etc. etc.

The price per unit isn't what's in question so much as the price/performance ratio and whether or not the tool could be built to be equally effective for its intended context of use, but at lower expense by cutting away extraneous elements.

 

[vanslem6]

Some perhaps as there can be a lot of variables involved in the process that will have an effect on the price per unit.

Like comparing a Sebenza to a TI Military for example.

Perfect example is General Motors. The cars are mediocre, but priced high. You don't get what you pay for compared to other brands - you support lifetime pensions and insurance for retirees. Legacy costs ain't cheap, and certainly won't last forever.

What's the standard markup on knives? In the type of industry I'm familiar with, 2.5-3.5 times cost is generally what you price something at. Perceived value can trump your cost, however. I can get Adidas sweatshirts for $4-5, and sell them for $50-60. Are they closeouts? Absolutely. Do I care? Nope, nor do the people buying them. Lots of things to consider - overhead, material costs (fiat currencies and exchange rates again), transportation, country of origin, insurance, etc., etc., etc.. There are a million and one variables to consider, yet most people that have never been involved in any sort of business assume that firms are 'greedy' when the prices go up, up, up. It's not always the case.

So from my limited experience, a $28 Buck 110 would likely cost about $10-11 to produce (if that $28 was the MSRP). That's pretty cheap, but the design hasn't changed a whole lot, so that would certainly help lower cost over time. Where are they being made?? In what currency is the labour being paid? Who owns the factory/equipment? Is the distribution done in-house? So very many things to consider. Most of what we (us consumers) decide is based directly on our experience and perception. For example - most people probably don't think GM vehicles are overpriced crap. I do. It's all relative.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

In the type of industry I'm familiar with, 2.5-3.5 times cost is generally what you price something at.

Man--I'm in the wrong line of work! Suffice to say that the margins in the knife industry are generally much less than that. MSRP is usually set at 2x the wholesale price, and then discounted down from there by the retailer. Hence why so many companies have opted for MAP policy as of late--it helps protect retailers already operating on fairly thin margins. If you wanted to get rich quick and were looking for a market to jump into, the knife industry would not be a particularly appealing one compared to others.

The $28 that Wal*Mart has them at is actually below dealer cost. I would save money buying them from Wal*Mart vs. a typical industry wholesale distributor.

 

[Ankerson]

In a hyperbolic example, I could by a solid gold ingot that's marketed as a knife, but in every respect the money I'd be spending would not be materially increasing the performance of the product as a knife. On a more realistic basis, it could be paying for a more expensive fad steel that is actually a poor choice for the intended application of the tool, for ornamental elements, fanciful mechanisms or blade shapes that chiefly provide novelty, country of origin, crazy compound grinds that don't actually make the tool work better (in fact, sometimes worse), prestige, etc. etc.

The price per unit isn't what's in question so much as the price/performance ratio and whether or not the tool could be built to be equally effective for its intended context of use, but at lower expense by cutting away extraneous elements.

In the end people will buy what they like as everyone knows.

There aren't any fad steels.

Most of them have been around for quite some time now and aren't going away.

A lot of variables there and depending on use, the actual knife in question etc things can and will vary greatly depending on those variables.