When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

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Insipid Moniker said:
I've never denied those were assumptions. But not all assumptions are created equal. Assuming that someone reluctant to disclose the COO of their products certainly strongly indicates China, as does the cost of labor there. The second requires even less guesswork. If multiple dealers received batched of knives labeled 'Made in China's it's a very short hop to the fact that at least some of them would list those knives as being made in China. The fact that none of them did so is strong evidence suggesting that, despite their origin there, none of them were appropriately labeled when they arrived at dealers.
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The fact that feathers are still ruffled because I was right pleases me to no end.
 
rpstrimple said:
I’m starting to wonder if he deleted everything because he has talked to a lawyer and was advised to do so. I’m sure some of these dealers have been on the phone or will be on the phone come Monday about their legal options here.

We aren’t talking about a couple hundred of knives. We are talking about probably tens of thousands of dollars of product that conveniently wasn’t labeled properly. And that’s just current inventory….
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Was thinking the same thing
 
Quiet said:
The fact that feathers are still ruffled because I was right pleases me to no end.
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You weren’t “right”… you picked China because you thought it made the guy you despise look the worst because let’s be honest.. you were capitalizing on the emotions that hearing “China” has on people that are strongly “buy American”. Don’t think your little psychological operation went unnoticed.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
It’ll be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out in court with all the mud slinging that occurred here that is open for anyone to read. I wonder how those assumptions and insults will look?
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Puzzled why you think it would matter. None of us have any real skin in the game and the principals who do have spoken very little.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Your lack of reading comprehension doesn't render my explanation any less valid.
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You’re right, you made it less valid all on your own when you tried to rationalize away making assumptions about the COO.

Unless you’re a psychic or a mind-reader, there’s no way you’re going to impress me with your long-winded explanation about how you ended up picking the winning horse.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Your lack of reading comprehension doesn't render my explanation any less valid.
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The amount of projection is ridiculous. Most people are capable of understanding that if a maker is not making their own knives and cagey about where they came from, China is the usual answer. QTRMSTR is a great example. Others have been named.


Damn you for understanding the past and applying it to the future!
 
Paratrooper06 said:
You weren’t “right”… you picked China because you thought it made the guy you despise look the worst because let’s be honest.. you were capitalizing on the emotions that hearing “China” has on people that are strongly “buy American”. Don’t think your little psychological operation went unnoticed.
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Just give it a rest already... Psychological operation….. you mean like the one Jake played for 5 years letting people assume his knives were Made in USA?
 
Blackfish775 said:
The amount of projection is ridiculous. Most people are capable of understanding that if a maker is not making their own knives and cagey about where they came from, China is the usual answer. QTRMSTR is a great example. Others have been named.


Damn you for understanding the past and applying it to the future!
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I meaaaaannnnnn....right???

I would actually have been surprised to find out that he was having his knives made in Italy. Hell, I'd probably be in for a Lionsteel/Viper made Sumo at that price then.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
You’re right, you made it less valid all on your own when you tried to rationalize away making assumptions about the COO.

Unless you’re a psychic or a mind-reader, there’s no way you’re going to impress me with your long-winded explanation about how you ended up picking the winning horse.
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I'm again unsurprised that basic deductive skills seem to be beyond your ken. Applying the information we do have access to makes for much more accurate assumptions than boldly claiming that consumers aren't entitled to COO information when the opposite is true or that advertising products as made in America only requires them to be made 50.1% here when there's hard evidence that you're entirely wrong.
 
Never bought a Jake Hoback and never will not just because of his lies but also because his knives do not appeal to me plus the price tag. Clearly he lied or at least purposely chose not to tell the truth of where his knives are made. This thread is too long for me to read through carefully. But I just wonder what is the exact definition of "Made in the USA." Again, I am not defending anyone just purely curious which of the following is regarded as Made in the USA, all assuming the knife is designed by a factory or individual in the USA and the knife is put together in the USA?

1. All parts including screws, scales, and the blade are made in a foreign country or countries.
2. Everything else is made in a foreign country or countries. The blade steel is made in a foreign country but heat treated in the USA and the blade is made in the USA.
3. Some parts other than the blade is made in a foreign country or countries.
4. All the materials are manufactured in a foreign country or countries but all parts including the blade are made in the USA.

This list is not inclusive but at least the answers to these questions can help understand the scope of Made in the USA.
 
Out of interest, I was looking back through old emails with Jake. I ordered one of his 2nd "mid-tech" run of Kwaikens. I think the first run were made (at least put together) in his shop, but presumably with (at least some) components made elsewhere. The 2nd run was delayed, and he eventually explained that he would be having them made externally, in a machine shop they'd already been using, with his shop just doing the QC. Further delays, and then in early 2015, he sent an email including the text below. The knives arrived late 2015.

We found a new machine shop that can build the Kwaibacks for us! I will personally have a large hand in the entire process of these knives and they are going to be absolutely amazing.

We pulled out all the stops on this knife. These knives will have all of the exact same features as my custom shop work. I didn't dumb down this knife, nor cheap out on materials or hardware. This knife will rival my customs in fit/finish/materials/ and quality. I plan to make this the best knife I can possibly make it end of story. I believe my hands on approach with help immensely with this project. The machine shop will be machining and assembling the knives exactly as I would in my shop because I will be there with them every step of the way to show them how I expect it to be done.

The last couple of sentences clearly give the impression it would be a local machine shop, but I wonder now if this was already when he started outsourcing to China. The finishing on this batch of knives seemed higher than earlier ones, the choices diminished to basically plain or fancy hardware, and he stopped calling them "mid-tech" and instead started calling them "UHEP - ultra-high-end production". After this batch, he started selling through dealers and listing available knives on his website, rather than the pre-order with options model.
 
sharp_edge said:
Never bought a Jake Hoback and never will not just because of his lies but also because his knives do not appeal to me plus the price tag. Clearly he lied or at least purposely chose not to tell the truth of where his knives are made. This thread is too long for me to read through carefully. But I just wonder what is the exact definition of "Made in the USA." Again, I am not defending anyone just purely curious which of the following is regarded as Made in the USA, all assuming the knife is designed by a factory or individual in the USA and the knife is put together in the USA?

1. All parts including screws, scales, and the blade are made in a foreign country or countries.
2. Everything else is made in a foreign country or countries. The blade steel is made in a foreign country but heat treated in the USA and the blade is made in the USA.
3. Some parts other than the blade is made in a foreign country or countries.
4. All the materials are manufactured in a foreign country or countries but all parts including the blade are made in the USA.

This list is not inclusive but at least the answers to these questions can help understand the scope of Made in the USA.
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I had linked this earlier, but I don't blame you for not wanting to slog through. To advertise a product as Made in America you must make all or virtually all of the product in the US. You can also advertise products as being assembled in America using foreign and domestic parts (or just foreign parts) but the standard is pretty high.

Source.
 
Spey said:
Quotes above are reversed order.

RBB2:
A friend owns shop that has done blades and other parts for different USA knife manufacturers for years (actually over a decade now). I am not going to make any disclosure statements and start any sh_t-shows like this thread though. You would however recognize the knife companies I am referring to.

This is common practice in MANY industries. One company I worked for for years (large commercial industrial mfr.) manufactured goods for a number of other supposed manufacturers under what are termed private-label-agreements, aka Private Label Production and Supply Agreement, which almost always includes a Binding Non-Disclosure Clause. In addition to making product for other mfr's, they also had Private Label Agreements with companies that made goods for them/us (so were working both sides of the equation). It gets really juicy when there is a failure where hundreds of thousands of dollars are at state (for a single claim), and you are sitting in meetings discussing liability payments/solutions to the owner who thinks one manufacturer is responsible, then the meetings dividing the fix/solution costs amongst those involved all while not letting on to the owner the reality of the situation (because of those pesky non-disclosure contracts), and getting the owner to use your product on future projects.

The ignorance and vindictiveness displayed in this thread is quite amazing.
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What you're talking about is entirely different than having a complete knife manufactured and selling it under your own brand. As had been said many times, we all know lots of knife companies do that as well, but they are up front about the arrangement and origins of the products.
 
Brummie said:
Out of interest, I was looking back through old emails with Jake. I ordered one of his 2nd "mid-tech" run of Kwaikens. I think the first run were made (at least put together) in his shop, but presumably with (at least some) components made elsewhere. The 2nd run was delayed, and he eventually explained that he would be having them made externally, in a machine shop they'd already been using, with his shop just doing the QC. Further delays, and then in early 2015, he sent an email including the text below. The knives arrived late 2015.

We found a new machine shop that can build the Kwaibacks for us! I will personally have a large hand in the entire process of these knives and they are going to be absolutely amazing.

We pulled out all the stops on this knife. These knives will have all of the exact same features as my custom shop work. I didn't dumb down this knife, nor cheap out on materials or hardware. This knife will rival my customs in fit/finish/materials/ and quality. I plan to make this the best knife I can possibly make it end of story. I believe my hands on approach with help immensely with this project. The machine shop will be machining and assembling the knives exactly as I would in my shop because I will be there with them every step of the way to show them how I expect it to be done.

The last couple of sentences clearly give the impression it would be a local machine shop, but I wonder now if this was already when he started outsourcing to China. The finishing on this batch of knives seemed higher than earlier ones, the choices diminished to basically plain or fancy hardware, and he stopped calling them "mid-tech" and instead started calling them "UHEP - ultra-high-end production". After this batch, he started selling through dealers and listing available knives on his website, rather than the pre-order with options model.
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If a random machine shop can mass produce a knife that rivals your custom work for fit/finish/materials/ and quality...

Seven years ago. That's a helluva long time to live a lie.
 
RBB2 said:
What you're talking about is entirely different than having a complete knife manufactured and selling it under your own brand. As had been said many times, we all know lots of knife companies do that as well, but they are up front about the arrangement and origins of the products.
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RE: "... we all know lots of knife companies do that as well, but they are up front about the arrangement and origins of the products"

You think so ...? Ignorance is bliss my friend.
 
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