When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

Status
Not open for further replies.
Blues said:
Feel free. I spoke as a fellow member, not as staff. If I have something coming, let fly.
Click to expand...
So I think there's more going on here than just his unwillingness to divulge. I think there's kind of a witch hunt against this guy because one vocal forum member didn't like the response he got about a button lock. He felt it was condescending and he brings it up every time Hoback is mentioned.

Ultimately folks purport to be upset because they thought (Hoback didn't claim it) that the knife was 100% made in the USA, and it isn't. Why do they care? Because they want to support US businesses. But then they don't care if someone supports Bohler, a German company, rather than Crucible, a US company, even though that doesn't support US jobs. How does that even make sense?
 
It ain't that complicated, people. "Made in USA" per FTC rules means that the item acquired the majority of its value in the USA, whether through labor or assembly of domestic parts. In the case of a knife, if you take German made steel, and then turn that into a knife in the USA, then it's permissible to label it "made in USA". Even though all of the material in the knife is foreign made. Yes, I'm sure there are nuances that break that down in more rules and legal precedents, but that definition should suffice here.

I'm not sure where people are coming up with this idea that a manufacturer must disclose all of its sourcing and then show that all materials used must be made in USA, in order to legally label an item as "Made in USA". If this is the standard, just about every American manufacturer would be in trouble.

Look, I'm all for buying USA made. That's one of the first things I look at as well. But I don't get this thread. If you want to say that Hoback is hiding something, and that you're suspicious, then that's fair. You're entitled to your opinions. So don't buy from him. But don't go trying to apply weird definitions of "Made in USA". You're just confusing the issue.
 
I think it should be labeled which knives are completely made overseas. Also, he didn't say what country made his knives but I think it's safe to assume China. I'd bet most people don't know these important details.
 
shinyedges said:
Interesting. Whole knives made overseas.
Click to expand...
And models where some complete knives have been made here, both in Hoback's shop and in outsourced shops, and overseas. So for Model X, there's apparently no way to know which of those three options applies to the one in your hand.

Man, there is a lot to unpack in that video.
 
deadzonepatrol said:
It ain't that complicated, people. "Made in USA" per FTC rules means that the item acquired the majority of its value in the USA, whether through labor or assembly of domestic parts. In the case of a knife, if you take German made steel, and then turn that into a knife in the USA, then it's permissible to label it "made in USA". Even though all of the material in the knife is foreign made. Yes, I'm sure there are nuances that break that down in more rules and legal precedents, but that definition should suffice here.

I'm not sure where people are coming up with this idea that a manufacturer must disclose all of its sourcing and then show that all materials used must be made in USA, in order to legally label an item as "Made in USA". If this is the standard, just about every American manufacturer would be in trouble.

Look, I'm all for buying USA made. That's one of the first things I look at as well. But I don't get this thread. If you want to say that Hoback is hiding something, and that you're suspicious, then that's fair. You're entitled to your opinions. So don't buy from him. But don't go trying to apply weird definitions of "Made in USA". You're just confusing the issue.
Click to expand...
How about whole knives he made zero parts for? Did you watch the video? This was not public information.
 
Dadpool said:
And models where some complete knives have been made here, both in Hoback's shop and in outsourced shops, and overseas. So for Model X, there's apparently no way to know which of those three options applies to the one in your hand.

Man, there is a lot to unpack in that video.
Click to expand...
100% agreed. He knew he was benefiting from people believing he was making them in the USA.
 
Dadpool said:
And models where some complete knives have been made here, both in Hoback's shop and in outsourced shops, and overseas. So for Model X, there's apparently no way to know which of those three options applies to the one in your hand.

Man, there is a lot to unpack in that video.
Click to expand...
Agreed. This means that there are people out there right now who bought a knife that they believed was a product made here in America that was outsourced to somewhere else, made, sent here, and then sold to them under the idea that this company makes knives in America. They’ve probably shown it off with pride at it being American made, but is actually made (probably) in China. Big oof right there.
 
I have a lot of thoughts, but the most relevant/objective thing I can say is we were never informed that listing the knives as made in USA was incorrect - I was the one who set up our dealer agreement with them and did the ordering since we picked them up several years ago - I am very familiar with the entire process. This was not everyone somehow ignoring Hoback trying to correct us.
 
I keep coming back to the sentence in the previous FAQ (not the current version), the one that led me to assume that -- broadly -- there were at a minimum some stages of manufacturing happening in Hoback's shop on every knife:

All knives are QC’d, fitted and shipped directly from our shop in Idaho.
Click to expand...
In particular, "QC'd, fitted" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Is "fitted" a knife manufacturing term of art that covers receiving a complete knife made by another manufacturer (which he notes in the video is sometimes the case)?

The more I think about it, the more Hoback's pricing bothers me. Take my Husky, for example (and note that I have no insider knowledge about where that model falls in Hoback's nebulous stew of manufacturing options).

1. I paid $575 for it, and the dealer had the country of origin marked as USA.
2. I had read Hoback's country of origin FAQ and knew that imported parts were used; that's not unusual, and to name one example my proudly made-in-the-USA Hinderer XM-18 uses Austrian blade steel.
3. I assumed -- reasonably, I think -- that this knife was made in the USA. I don't mind paying a premium for American-made knives produced by smaller companies, and it sure looked like that fit the bill here.
4. If, say, Reate had made my Husky, it would likely have cost in the neighborhood of $400. This is a great knife and the fit and finish are flawless; that applies to Reate, and I consider Reate the king of Chinese knife manufacturers.
5. Both Hoback and Reate offer USA-based warranty support, so that's not a differentiator.
6. Other knife designers who work with Reate often land around that $400 price point, so "because I like Hoback's designs" isn't really a pricing factor if Reate made the knife.
7. If, hypothetically, Reate made my Husky, why did it cost $175 more because Hoback "QC'd, fitted and shipped" it to the dealer?
 
Dadpool said:
And models where some complete knives have been made here, both in Hoback's shop and in outsourced shops, and overseas. So for Model X, there's apparently no way to know which of those three options applies to the one in your hand.

Man, there is a lot to unpack in that video.
Click to expand...
Yep. There are plenty of companies and custom makers that design knives, have them made in China or elsewhere, shipped here, and sold. Vero, Boo, Chavez, QC, Rogers OEM, MBK, and on and on. The difference is your know that up front. I don't doubt that Hoback could sell almost as many knives if he'd disclose all this. What he probably couldn't do is charge $500-$700 for them. The deceit (which is ongoing) and the motive (profit) are the issue.

Don't take this to mean I think he shouldn't make a profit. What I don't think he should do is make extra profit by cultivating a certain image that he knows is incorrect, and then charging a premium versus comparable knives based on that image.
 
He's big on God so I found the appropriate God for this matter. Meet the Chinese God of Wealth, aptly named "Caishen", which looks a lot like "Cash In".
sH2H1Da.jpg
 
Dadpool said:
I keep coming back to the sentence in the previous FAQ (not the current version), the one that led me to assume that -- broadly -- there were at a minimum some stages of manufacturing happening in Hoback's shop on every knife:


In particular, "QC'd, fitted" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Is "fitted" a knife manufacturing term of art that covers receiving a complete knife made by another manufacturer (which he notes in the video is sometimes the case)?

The more I think about it, the more Hoback's pricing bothers me. Take my Husky, for example (and note that I have no insider knowledge about where that model falls in Hoback's nebulous stew of manufacturing options).

1. I paid $575 for it, and the dealer had the country of origin marked as USA.
2. I had read Hoback's country of origin FAQ and knew that imported parts were used; that's not unusual, and to name one example my proudly made-in-the-USA Hinderer XM-18 uses Austrian blade steel.
3. I assumed -- reasonably, I think -- that this knife was made in the USA. I don't mind paying a premium for American-made knives produced by smaller companies, and it sure looked like that fit the bill here.
4. If, say, Reate had made my Husky, it would likely have cost in the neighborhood of $400. This is a great knife and the fit and finish are flawless; that applies to Reate, and I consider Reate the king of Chinese knife manufacturers.
5. Both Hoback and Reate offer USA-based warranty support, so that's not a differentiator.
6. Other knife designers who work with Reate often land around that $400 price point, so "because I like Hoback's designs" isn't really a pricing factor if Reate made the knife.
7. If, hypothetically, Reate made my Husky, why did it cost $175 more because Hoback "QC'd, fitted and shipped" it to the dealer?
Click to expand...
Precisely all of this. I received a Summit today. I haven't opened it yet while I see how this plays out. It was $625 and listed as made in the USA. I assumed that some parts (screws, bearings) and plenty of raw materials were imported originally. But I also thought that the machining and assembly was done in the US. I had read the same FAQ as is posted above, and like the poster there, thought "fitted" meant assembly at the very least. I 100% would not have bought it at this price had I known that the entire knife may have been made under contract in China.
 
Jordan@DLT said:
I have a lot of thoughts, but the most relevant/objective thing I can say is we were never informed that listing the knives as made in USA was incorrect - I was the one who set up our dealer agreement with them and did the ordering since we picked them up several years ago - I am very familiar with the entire process. This was not everyone somehow ignoring Hoback trying to correct us.
Click to expand...
Yep, and you guys actually stand behind the customer, I'm going with you any day on this one Jordan.
 
Jordan@DLT said:
I have a lot of thoughts, but the most relevant/objective thing I can say is we were never informed that listing the knives as made in USA was incorrect - I was the one who set up our dealer agreement with them and did the ordering since we picked them up several years ago - I am very familiar with the entire process. This was not everyone somehow ignoring Hoback trying to correct us.
Click to expand...
He tried to correct you guys. It's your fault he benefited from making knives in China and selling them as USA made. Right.

I'll go with lying for 400 Alex. Daily double!
 
And this folks, is why transparency matters. Had people not pushed for transparency he would still be selling Chinese knives as USA made.

And people are confused as to why transparency matters? Where ya at now? Right. Silence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top