Where Spydercos Fall Short

marcinek said:
You ARE invoking the Coastline Paradox.

You are playing fast and loose with "edge length" (blue) and "blade length" (yellow green). And you are ignoring and misunderstanding blade shape.

You can skin a moose with a 3 inch blade with plenty of belly (and EDGE LENGTH). In fact, that will skin that moose better than a 3 inch blade with no belly (less edge length but the same blade length).

Parts of the kris blade only will cut things that fit inside into convex regions of it....but that doesn't mean there is no edge in those concave regions.

I understand that you have preferences, but maybe you need to state them using clearer terminology.
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I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to play fast and loose with terms. If it seems that way, it is because those terms themselves are ill-defined... many manufacturers use the term "blade length" as the length of the where the metal of the blade starts to the tip, including length of things like a choil which have no edge on them whatsoever. I believe Spyderco does this, as does many other makers, hence why I said values on the graph are approximate. So no, the yellow line is not "Blade Length" in most cases. And you're absolutely right about belly but that's not what I'm talking about here. Also, according to your own terms, a 3 inch blade with plenty of belly will actually be shorter than a 3 inch wharncliffe blade, and by shorter I mean it will have less reach (yellow/green measurement). Is this the case? Just trying to clarify

Again I apologize for the unclear terminology and if you or others could help me clarify it then I welcome that.
 
Indoril said:
Again I apologize for the unclear terminology and if you or others could help me clarify it then I welcome that.
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Will do. Answer this multiple choice question

1) I wish Spydercos had

A) longer blades in the same length handles.
B) the same length blades but with more belly.
C) shorter handles.
D) All of the above.
 
Indoril said:
Also, according to your own terms, a 3 inch blade with plenty of belly will actually be shorter than a 3 inch wharncliffe blade, and by shorter I mean it will have less reach (yellow/green measurement). Is this the case?
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Not at all. A 3 inch "as the crow flies/blade length" with plenty of belly (or kris) will have a longer edge length than a 3 inch "as the crow flies/blade length sheepsfoot.
 
Aldebaran said:
Another way to look at this is not just how much cutting length you have, but how much room is being taken up to carry that cutting edge. Here are two images to illustrate this idea. One the left is the CH3504, the middle the PM2, and the right a CH3001. In the open position the cutting edges are lined up where the cutting edges start near the handle. You can see that the CH3001 has a longer cutting edge. The CH3504 has a much longer cutting edge. You can also see that the CH3001 is much smaller overall and the CH3504 is basically the same.

In the closed position, the CH3504 is bascially the same as the PM2 to carry and the CH3001 just disappears in the pocket. The CH3504, IMHO, is more comfortable or at least as comfortable to carry and use as the PM2. The CH3001 is still pretty comfortable in the hand but is soooo much better in the pocket. I should also point out that the grip length of the CH3001 is the same of the normal grip position length of the PM2

If getting your finger right up to the cutting edge is important to you, then all of this is moot. For me personally I have never understood the purpose of a finger choil.

I am not saying that Spydercos are bad knives, not at all. I have a Delica 4, an Endura 4, a Byrd CaraCara 2, and a PM2. I like them, just I like other knives better.

PM2vs_open.jpg
PM2vs_closed.jpg
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Wholeheartedly agree. I think one metric that could reflect this "pocketability" aspect would be (edge length) / (bounded volume of the knife when closed), units of mm/ml might be convenient ... you've given me an idea ;)
 
marcinek said:
Will do. Answer this multiple choice question

1) I wish Spydercos had

A) longer blades in the same length handles.
B) the same length blades but with more belly.
C) shorter handles.
D) All of the above.
Click to expand...
I wish they had better ratios. So A and/or C!
They have decent bellies on them for the most part :P
 
Indoril said:
I wish they had better ratios. So A and/or C!
They have decent bellies on them for the most part :p
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There you go. You dont care about edge length, you are looking for more blade length "As the crow flies".

That's fine.

How about a Police?
 
marcinek said:
Not at all. A 3 inch "as the crow flies/blade length" with plenty of belly (or kris) will have a longer edge length than a 3 inch "as the crow flies/blade length sheepsfoot.
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Okay, I understand the discrepancy in terminology now. You use "edge length" to mean the actual distance travelled when you trace along the edge, whereas I use it to mean the straight line distance from where the edge starts to where it ends. Sorry for the confusion

But again, using blade length for my version of "as the crow flies" edge length just won't do, since blade length often means something like the length of the metal that makes up the blade. I know you think "cross sectional cutting area" is bad, but do you have any other ideas on what I could call what I'm talking about?
 
marcinek said:
There you go. You dont care about edge length, you are looking for more blade length "As the crow flies".

That's fine.

How about a Police?
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The police seems like a great knife but a bit large for my needs. Recently I noticed the Baby Jess Horn when someone mentioned it, which seems to fit the bill perfectly and breaks the pattern of lower edge/OAL ratios for the small lockbacks. It's not bad at around 0.39 IIRC. Alas, if only it wasn't so pricey... but such is the way of sprint runs :(

IMO it would be nice if next iteration of the Delica will be more similar in proportions to the Jess Horn
 
Indoril said:
I wish they had better ratios. So A and/or C!
They have decent bellies on them for the most part :p
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What do you mean by "better" ratios? A ratio is just a ratio.
What exactly would be "better" about a closer ratio between handle/blade length?? And how much benefit are we talking about?
 
You could call what you're talking about arbitrary or personal taste, or even opinion.

As in "In my opinion these blades are too short" and then you won't have other folks trying to use the same formula but not getting matching results.
 
Indoril said:
But again, using blade length for my version of "as the crow flies" edge length just won't do, since blade length often means something like the length of the metal that makes up the blade. I know you think "cross sectional cutting area" is bad, but do you have any other ideas on what I could call what I'm talking about?
Click to expand...

You lost me on that one.

But I see your objection....Spyderco really likes the leaf shaped blades that pack a lot of edge length in a small blade length. And that isn't your cup of tea.

So I am going to quit while I'm ahead!
 
danbot said:
What do you mean by "better" ratios? A ratio is just a ratio.
What exactly would be "better" about a closer ratio between handle/blade length?? And how much benefit are we talking about?
Click to expand...
By better I mean higher, IE closer to 0.50. For example, if there are two knives with a 4 inch handle that are identical, except that one has a 1.5 inch blade, the other has a 3 inch blade, then most people would agree that the longer one is superior, in general. Of course it depends on the application... if you're a detailed wood carver maybe the longer blade would actually be a liability. But I'm talking about the general case here, in a fantasy land where there are no restrictions on blade length. Another reason you might want a shorter blade is due to length restrictions.
 
marcinek said:
Will do. Answer this multiple choice question

1) I wish Spydercos had

A) longer blades in the same length handles.
B) the same length blades but with more belly.
C) shorter handles.
D) All of the above.
Click to expand...

Lol how can you choose D: All of the above
If that will entail picking A (handles same lengrh) and C (shorter handles)
 
Indoril said:
By better I mean higher, IE closer to 0.50. For example, if there are two knives with a 4 inch handle that are identical, except that one has a 1.5 inch blade, the other has a 3 inch blade, then most people would agree that the longer one is superior, in general.
Click to expand...

No, not at all.

Also you are ignoring the fact that handles dont get shorter at the same rate blades do. Look at something like an Emerson Snubby. You gonna have a 2.7 inch handle on that? Its got the same handle length as their longer bladed knives.

Again, I think you have a preference for longer blades, but you keep talking yourself into circles.

Trying to come up with tables and mathematics and ratios and the "Coastline Paradox" and they are not working for you.

They are not helping you get your point across.
 
Indoril said:
By better I mean higher, IE closer to 0.50. For example, if there are two knives with a 4 inch handle that are identical, except that one has a 1.5 inch blade, the other has a 3 inch blade, then most people would agree that the longer one is superior, in general. Of course it depends on the application... if you're a detailed wood carver maybe the longer blade would actually be a liability. But I'm talking about the general case here, in a fantasy land where there are no restrictions on blade length. Another reason you might want a shorter blade is due to length restrictions.
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Just out of curiosity, is this also your preferred ratio for fixed blade knives?
 
marcinek said:
No, not at all.

Also you are ignoring the fact that handles dont get shorter at the same rate blades do. Look at something like an Emerson Snubby. You gonna have a 2.7 inch handle on that? Its got the same handle length as their longer bladed knives.

Again, I think you have a preference for longer blades, but you keep talking yourself into circles.

Trying to come up with tables and mathematics and ratios and the "Coastline Paradox" and they are not working for you.

They are not helping you get your point across.
Click to expand...
Good point. Of course the desirable ratio changes as knives get smaller, because the average human hand can only get so small! Maybe this is why the Dragonfly is the way it is. The Flash1 which has a similar blade length doesn't follow this, but I'm sure there are a fair number of people out there who find its handle too small.
 
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