Which Axe for "my" needs?

[killa_concept]

You left out this:

3.2.1.1 Steel composition.
The tool head of each type of ax shall be forged from fully killed plain carbon AISI/SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon, 0.30 to 0.90 percent manganese, not more than 0.040 percent phosphorus, and not more than 0.050 percent sulfur. Steel composition of the head shall be determined as specified in 4.5.1.1.

If the quality of axe they require could be achieved at 55 points of carbon then the spec would be for 55 points of carbon. Clearly the Forest Service believes that a better axe results with >.72 carbon.

I was more concerned with the fact that the Council Tool FSS boy's axe didn't seem to meet the HRC requirements set by the USFS (48-55 vs 54-58). As I said in my previous post, heat treat > steel. And Council makes no mention of the steel they use for their FSS axe so who knows if the steel meets the alloying requirements either. I have no doubt that a .70+% carbon steel when properly hardened to the required 54-58 would outperform GB's steel. But in this case, Council's steel of choice is kept too soft so a proper comparison can't exactly be made..

Also, if you followed the video link above, it's a fairly well trusted person among the knife community saying (at 20:25) that he feels Council's 5160 (one of my favorite steels mind you) didn't take or hold an edge as well as GB's proprietary .55% carbon steel. 5160 more or less meets FSS standards on alloying elements with .65% carbon, .75-1.0% manganese, .035% phosphorus, and .04% sulfur. It even has around .6% chromium which gives the steel even more toughness and a wee bit of corrosion resistance. Forgers love the stuff for heavy impact blades. Heck, I have a couple of kukris made out of it and they take and hold an amazing edge and stand up very well to hard chopping.

But Council chose to keep the brilliant steel in the low 50s and apparently this guy notices and his off-hand opinion is that the GB steel holds up better. Again, heat treat > steel.

 

[killa_concept]

I looked at the difference. I'm sure both steels used are adequate, either comparatively or respectively (on price point). But I can definitely say the Husqvarna handle is thicker. I prefer the slimmer handles. This boils to personal preference, but should be noted.

A thick handle is nothing a wee bit of rasping and sandpaper can't fix, mate. I'd say the reason for the premium of GBs vs Wetterlings and Husqies (Hults Bruk) from my personal experience is that the GB's bits tend to be thinner, the heads generally lighter, the heat treat a bit more consistent, and the fit and finish significantly better done (never received a GB with a bad edge profile or incapable of shaving). All the above companies do however use the same proprietary swedish axe steel. Whether or not you consider those to be things you'd pay extra for is up to you.

 

[M3mphis]

Also, if you followed the video link above, it's a fairly well trusted person among the knife community saying (at 20:25) that he feels Council's 5160 (one of my favorite steels mind you) didn't take or hold an edge as well as GB's proprietary .55% carbon steel.

No offense to anyone but, IMO, it is very widely accepted that GB's steel/heat treat produces a harder steel that holds an edge longer than Council's (including the Velvicut line). Which is "tougher" is debatable.

 

[SR69]

Thanks for all the responses. For me, tool quality is a priority.
Right now, despite giving up the features of the Wett, GB is in first place.
At the very least, I feel I'll get something that is undeniably a quality piece.
The Wett will have to "rob" that position from the GB. Am also looking into
the other suggestions made here. Good stuff. Again, thank you very much.
I'll post my decision shortly.

 

[Danketch]

Just an update- got back from a 3 day trip, and the Husqvarna Forest Axe performed admirably. I chopped down a 8" poplar (took forever), and chopped it up. It excelled at limbing the thing (what it was made for). No issues with the thing, handle felt comfortable to me, edge held fine, no chipping. Hope that helps.

 

[bearhunter]

I would still look at something in the traditional boys axe range - u can always choke up but can't add length in the woods.

I'm right there with ya Operator

I just don't get these boys and their short sticks

Isn't it good to see that Memphis is still around...

 

[Coffee Mug]

A simple 2.5 Lbs Boys axe will do as it has been the main axe of anyone serious about Hostile environment survival; don't let the weight bother you as it will do all jobs well.

 

[chuxwan]

I was in a similar position before I really got into axes, found myself basically choosing between the Wetterlings and the GB scandi. I still haven't handled a Wetterlings, and I absolutely wont regret buying the GB. I really think the small forest axe would be too small to realistically do much wood processing. I've done many hours of chopping and carving with the Scandi and it's just barely light enough to work small comfortably. I've never had an issue with it (that wasn't my fault ). Others have commented on the geometry of the swedish axes. IIRC Wetterlings has a slight centerline but my GB has none, and it really aids control in carving compared with other axes/hatchets I've tried.
That said, if I knew what I know now, I'd spend that chunk of money on many different axes (and handle woods) and modify/tweak them until I found a perfect fit. To be fair, I'm somewhat crafty and have access to large shop, so of course that option depends on time, tools, skill, etc. You mentioned that you use quality tools in your profession; if you have the time it might be really rewarding to get an old boy's axe head and play with the grind and handles until you find what you're looking for.

 

[killa_concept]

Thanks for all the responses. For me, tool quality is a priority.
Right now, despite giving up the features of the Wett, GB is in first place.
At the very least, I feel I'll get something that is undeniably a quality piece.
The Wett will have to "rob" that position from the GB. Am also looking into
the other suggestions made here. Good stuff. Again, thank you very much.
I'll post my decision shortly.

Yeah - honestly despite my large number of axes, I'd say my GB Scandinavian still probably sees the most use though my 28" 3lb Keen Kutter is starting to edge it out. The scandi's only real shortcoming is its flat faced design, but again that allows it to be an amazing bushcrafter / fine work tool and the sticking has never been an issue for me since I know its limitations and don't bite off more than I can chew when using it (<8" and dead standing softwoods). It's also a bit shorter and lighter than most boy's axes which makes it very packable.

Anyways, if that is the route you decide to take, Google "Gransfors Bruks free shipping". The second link is a place I've gotten two of my four GBs from and (on top of the free shipping) they've been amazing about handpicking me all sapwood handles with amazing grain. Speedy shipping too. Just be sure to phone in your order.. my first dealing with them, I purchased a WLH then sent an email 5 minutes later asking for a handpicked one. Got an email an hour later saying they'd shipped before the email even got read! They honored my request though and offered to refund or replace it if the axe didn't meet my requirements.

 

[KingKoma]

I was in a similar position before I really got into axes, found myself basically choosing between the Wetterlings and the GB scandi. I still haven't handled a Wetterlings, and I absolutely wont regret buying the GB. I really think the small forest axe would be too small to realistically do much wood processing. I've done many hours of chopping and carving with the Scandi and it's just barely light enough to work small comfortably. I've never had an issue with it (that wasn't my fault ). Others have commented on the geometry of the swedish axes. IIRC Wetterlings has a slight centerline but my GB has none, and it really aids control in carving compared with other axes/hatchets I've tried.
That said, if I knew what I know now, I'd spend that chunk of money on many different axes (and handle woods) and modify/tweak them until I found a perfect fit. To be fair, I'm somewhat crafty and have access to large shop, so of course that option depends on time, tools, skill, etc. You mentioned that you use quality tools in your profession; if you have the time it might be really rewarding to get an old boy's axe head and play with the grind and handles until you find what you're looking for.

Good post.

edit to add You dont need more than a minimum of hand tools and even less craftiness, I have found.

 

[killa_concept]

Good post.

edit to add You dont need more than a minimum of hand tools and even less craftiness, I have found.

Going light and having the knowledge to implement a small set of tools to their best effect is sort of the dogma of bushcraft. People who are into that mindset justify the 19" SFA over the 25" Scandi because they can use learned techniques to compensate (such as creating wedges for splitting tasks or using a collapsible bucksaw to make the back-cuts in the felling process, lessening the amount of chopping that's needed). Personally though, I have never done ultralight backpacking so I have no issue with taking along a larger quantity of tools to have fun with (which right now includes a 14" Wildlife hatchet for the belt and a 3lb Jersey pattern Keen Kutter on a 28" straight octagonal for the pack).

 

[KingKoma]

Going light and having the knowledge to implement a small set of tools to their best effect is sort of the dogma of bushcraft. People who are into that mindset justify the 19" SFA over the 25" Scandi because they can use learned techniques to compensate (such as creating wedges for splitting tasks or using a collapsible bucksaw to make the back-cuts in the felling process, lessening the amount of chopping that's needed). Personally though, I have never done ultralight backpacking so I have no issue with taking along a larger quantity of tools to have fun with (which right now includes a 14" Wildlife hatchet for the belt and a 3lb Jersey pattern Keen Kutter on a 28" straight octagonal for the pack).

I agree with all of that. Both the 19 and 25" axes are pretty odd tools, I think. What I was trying to say is nobody should feel discouraged from buying vintage axes because they dont have access to a lot of tools or feel they lack the necessary skills. You need very few tools that dont cost much (compared to a GB or Wetterlings, at least) and the skills you need is easily picked up if you get a few old axes to play around with.

 

[killa_concept]

I agree with all of that. Both the 19 and 25" axes are pretty odd tools, I think. What I was trying to say is nobody should feel discouraged from buying vintage axes because they dont have access to a lot of tools or feel they lack the necessary skills. You need very few tools that dont cost much (compared to a GB or Wetterlings, at least) and the skills you need is easily picked up if you get a few old axes to play around with.

Oh my bad - I misread your post then. I thought you were commenting on Chuxwan's point about the 19" vs 25" and craftiness in regards to usage, not the amount of tools or skill necessary to restore vintage axes.

But yes - I'd know just as well as the next person on that one. I use a pretty minimal amount of tools and most happen to be shown in this picture below: a 12" rasp, a 12" mill bastard file, a 4-in-1, a file card, some screw clamps and BLO if you want it for the handle. Not pictured, but also kind of necessary, is a coping saw. But that's really all you need to get started. The only times you need anything more is if you need to remove the old handle from the axe eye (which can still be a REAL pain, even with the right tools - especially if epoxy was used) or want to thin down, octagonize or otherwise customize your handle

 

[chuxwan]

Good post.

edit to add You dont need more than a minimum of hand tools and even less craftiness, I have found.

I completely agree for reprofiling and making or fitting a handle. What I meant to refer to is heavy modification. For example, if I wanted to turn a boy's axe with a high convex centerline into a flat-faced pack axe, I'd be really happy that I have access to a heavy duty beltsander.
More important than craftiness or special tools is of course the willingness to take on a new project and/or set of skills rather than buying something outright.

 

[bcknives]

My GB Small Forest Axe has a stupidly thin edge. I've not really used it, lack of time, but I can see it getting damaged trying to chop or split the hardwoods.

I have one, and I have used it a lot. That's not the case.

 

[Square_peg]

You need very few tools that dont cost much (compared to a GB or Wetterlings, at least) and the skills you need is easily picked up if you get a few old axes to play around with.

And more importantly, you need to develop those skills anyway. Otherwise what are you gonna do when your GB gets dull or needs re-handled? Buy another one?

 

[TEFL0N_D0N_81]

A thick handle is nothing a wee bit of rasping and sandpaper can't fix, mate.

You're right.

 

[SR69]

Warning: Rant Ahead​

Just got the Wetterlings Fine Forester's Axe and I have to say I'm very disappointed in it.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me. Maybe, because it's hand forged by a craftsman in a small shop that's been around for a hundred years, it's supposed to be as imperfect as I found it to be, but I'll let you guys be the judge of that. Here are (what I consider to be) the deficiencies I found with the axe. You tell me if they are to be expected or if I'm correct to want to reject it.

Issues?
Head is out of alignment with handle; Big time. Handle seems to have been mounted at an off 90 degree angle. It's just a horrible display IMO for what it's supposed to be (a high quality axe). The edge has a rolled over burr at the top and two small chips in it. The little things that I can "work out" I can deal with, but the handle being off "that" much and the edge being misaligned? WTH.

I'll be honest. I wanted to love this axe, but I'm p'd off that something in this condition was even allowed to leave the factory. I wouldn't have put my name on it. I just can't see getting passed this. There is no way such a misalignment can be deemed as acceptable for something that could put a hurtin' on you with just the slightest loss of control over it. A misaligned head/handle is dangerous. Period.

Good points?

Handle:
Excellent handle. Straight (according to my level). Perfect length for what I want to do with it (certainly much better than 20"). Nicely finished. They could use some lessons from Stiletto to get it perfect, but it's still a damn fine handle.

Sheath:
It came with the snap leather sheath which made me really happy. I didn't want the magnetic sheath at all as I've heard that it can pop off in transport and causes rust spots at the magnet points (requiring constant vigilance). It's not as nice as a Condor (which in my opinion should shame other manufacturers), but it's not as poorly made as other examples of the same sheath that I've seen online from other reviewers.

Head Shape:
OUTSTANDING design. I love the shape. It's perfect for what I want. But, the execution sucked. I'll be sad if I can't get this particular model done right.

Edge:
Despite the deficiencies listed above, it was paper cutting sharp.

[For the record, I make my living with tools and because of that (and because a poor tool is more a danger than an advantage), I'm very particular about what I use. I have hammers that cost more than this axe.]

 

[Square_peg]

I'd send that back. That much misalignment is unacceptable at that price.

 

[bearhunter]

I'd send that back. That much misalignment is unacceptable at that price.

Yeah, I'm with Pegs!
I'm normally not all that picky, but that's just plain unacceptable