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I'm trying to figure this out. I've used axes with slightly canted heads, and the universe didn't implode or anything. What is so inherently dangerous about it? It's an axe, not a vial of nitroglycerin.
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Which Axe for "my" needs?
- Thread starter SR69
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I'm trying to figure this out. I've used axes with slightly canted heads, and the universe didn't implode or anything. What is so inherently dangerous about it? It's an axe, not a vial of nitroglycerin.
Square_peg
Gold Member
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- Feb 1, 2012
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- 13,799
I could see an increased likelihood of a dangerous glancing blow with an axe that hangs crooked. Not nitro but still a danger.
Besides the handle veering off about 2" by the time it get to the end, a person would have to compensate for the other defects to
try to get a straight strike out of a crooked axe. I've used tools for the past 3 decades. I know when a tool is safe and not safe.
Like I said before, l have hammers that cost more than this axe. For that kind of money, heck, for ANY kind of money, no tool
should be that out of whack.
I thought the pics would be enough, but I'm sure if any one here held it in their hands, you'd all agree that the axe is just flawed.
BTW, Wetterlings just got back to me. They'd like to see the axe. Awesome that I did get a response from them. I'll send them
the pics so they can see what went back to the seller. I'm sure they'd agree with me that this wasn't a matter of being a "hair"
off center, but of something just being completely unusable. In fact, I'd rather use the $14. Truper I found at the local Tractor
Supply than this thing.
Now, fingers crossed for a good example from the seller. Again, I REALLY like the feel and design of it and I have no doubt that
any correct version of it would perform nicely.
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Yeah I'm pretty much in agreement with SP's response to M3mphis. It's not insanely dangerous in the manner of the head flying off or what-have-you since the grain looks decent and it IS only a boy's axe so there isn't much weight to the head to cause that during an overstrike, but it does look horribly misaligned from the pictures which would mean an unnecessary need to compensate when swung and an increased chance of glancing blows. It's an boy's axe, not a hewing one so there's absolutely no reason for the bit to be that off center..
Re-read my posts on this thread: #18 (page 1) and #21 (page 2).
To add to those posts, I believe I've read in a couple articles that Council uses 1060 in their regular line (that would include the FSS) with 5160 reserved for their velvicut. So that's .60% carbon (1060) which also doesn't meet those forestry service specs (on top of the lower heat treat). Realistically speaking though, it IS a government agency and as such, their sourcing of tools is on a government contract bidding basis. At the price point the Forest Service is probably willing to pay for the axes (much lower than the $40 we're getting the overstock for), there's no way they'd be getting a US-based manufacturer to meet that USFS Standard 5100-9D specification we were all throwing around. The production costs would far outweigh the contract pay. My best guess is that either those requirements are dated, or the FSS said "screw it" since no one would be bidding low enough if those were their expectations. If Council's contract with the FSS is over and not being renewed, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they're switching to products being manufactured south of the border or overseas..
Honestly, I have actually contemplated the merits of the GB Carpenter's as a bushcraft axe. It's just as long as the SFA, straight handled (which I prefer), and the bit design really lends itself to choking up for fine work. It would probably need a bit of tweaking to the primary bevel before use, but that's the only fault I could see.. 4 GBs (mini through Scandi) is already absurd enough though, so you won't be getting my actual first hand experience on that one...
According to what they had to do to get it up to spec for the Forestry Dept. I believe it was up to mid to high 50's.
Not pretending like I even know how do physically differentiate between the different ratings by "feel", but just
spouting out the numbers I came across in my research.
Re-read my posts on this thread: #18 (page 1) and #21 (page 2).
To add to those posts, I believe I've read in a couple articles that Council uses 1060 in their regular line (that would include the FSS) with 5160 reserved for their velvicut. So that's .60% carbon (1060) which also doesn't meet those forestry service specs (on top of the lower heat treat). Realistically speaking though, it IS a government agency and as such, their sourcing of tools is on a government contract bidding basis. At the price point the Forest Service is probably willing to pay for the axes (much lower than the $40 we're getting the overstock for), there's no way they'd be getting a US-based manufacturer to meet that USFS Standard 5100-9D specification we were all throwing around. The production costs would far outweigh the contract pay. My best guess is that either those requirements are dated, or the FSS said "screw it" since no one would be bidding low enough if those were their expectations. If Council's contract with the FSS is over and not being renewed, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they're switching to products being manufactured south of the border or overseas..
Ah okay - and here I thought I had found another person silly enough to want to pack around two axes
Honestly, I have actually contemplated the merits of the GB Carpenter's as a bushcraft axe. It's just as long as the SFA, straight handled (which I prefer), and the bit design really lends itself to choking up for fine work. It would probably need a bit of tweaking to the primary bevel before use, but that's the only fault I could see.. 4 GBs (mini through Scandi) is already absurd enough though, so you won't be getting my actual first hand experience on that one...
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
- Messages
- 2,395
Can't wait to see the discussion once the new one arrives.
The big one is stamped A A & T Co, then a paten date I can't read.
Stamped A A & T Co inc.
Glassport PA.
PAT'D APL-190?
American Axe & Tool company of course.
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- Sep 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,946
The big one is stamped A A & T Co, then a paten date I can't read.
Stamped A A & T Co inc.
Glassport PA.
PAT'D APL-190?
American Axe & Tool company of course.
Very cool!
I've always liked the looks of those.
Square_peg
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 13,799
Received the replacement axe. As I pulled it out of the box, first thing I noticed was the chipped handle at the eye. Not a good start. But, as I unraveled it, I noticed that it was infinitely better than the previous one I had received. Still, I wanted to look deeper.
While this head was also racked at the poll, I noticed that it was identical in layout to the previous version I had and it was no where near as bad at the handle. The handle, while not perfectly straight, was plum to the cutting edge and to the head. The racked poll threw me off a bit, but when I lined it up on my level, it was pretty much dead on. The cutting edge was straight (not twisted like the previous one). Sharpness was about the same.
I got to working with it a bit and F'd up the edge already, but left it like that for the pics. I'll work it later. Since this isn't a cheap hardware store axe, I wanted your advice on this. It's rolled over at several areas and I don't want to just take a bastard file to it right off the jump or be too aggressive with it. Along with that, I have a Lansky Puck, Lansky Honing Oil and an Arkansas Stone + a DMT 1200 mini-diamond block. I'm assuming a light pass with the file first to remove the areas where it's been rolled over, a pass over with the Lansky Puck w/oil to shape it, then the Ark Stone to start putting an edge back on it and finally the DMT just to clean it up. Please advise.
Other than that, generally, she is as good as I can expect for something "not' manufactured by a machine AND I really appreciate the dibits and tooling marks on it. For the 1/2 an hour I spend playing with it, it felt instinctual. Nice fit in my hand. Nice balance. It felt like a quality bit. From the moment I first bit into wood with it, I knew it was a good tool an I grinned ear to ear.
The work you see below; I chopped that 3" tree section while holding it (it was about 4-5' long) with my left hand and chopping with my right hand in well under 60 seconds or so. The axe really bit into that wood and it just spat out large chunks. I split that same section in one fell swoop as well (a section of about 24" long on end). I re-cut one of the 24"X 3" pieces but while laying it against a railroad tie to use the axe with both hands. While it was much better than the 20" axe I was considering, I'm certainly glad I have the 27.5" Council on the way. This will be used as a Bushcraft Axe while the Council will be for more serious work.
I'm sure you'll all agree that there's a significant difference between this and the previous version I received. All in all, the handle was relatively straight (even against my level), the cutting edge and the head was plum to the handle and it performed it's tasks very satisfactorily. Again, I never expect/ed "perfect" or flawless from something that is crafted by hand, but this is definitely worth the $86. I paid for it + shipping, but NOT worth the $8. I had to pay to ship it back. Under ordinary circumstances, I'd want the return shipping to be paid for by the seller, but again, because it was already a great price for it (at $91. initially) and I got a 5% discount on top of that, I didn't want to be a "short name for Richard" and just let it go. That would've been petty of me. So, in total, it ended up costing me about $102. (including original shipping and return shipping).
Now, I would've gladly paid the going rate of about $126. for it if I could have picked one out myself knowing what I know now. Either way, I can't cry. I would've been ticked if I couldn't get a decent version. Lesson learned? Pick out my own axe by hand next time even if it costs me $24. more and a trip out to wherever I can locate one (I only say that now because I'll be moving within 1/2 an hour from a place I know that carries them).
Tomorrow, the Council Tool Boy's Axe US Forest Service Edition arrives. If that one shows up in imperfect condition, whatevs. As long as it's not unsafe, I'll manage with it. But there would've been no excuse for me to keep the Wetterlings FFA "just because" it was a Wetterlings or because I got it at a good price. To the contrary. If anything, "because" it's a Wetterlings, it should always be a high quality product.
And now the pics...
While this head was also racked at the poll, I noticed that it was identical in layout to the previous version I had and it was no where near as bad at the handle. The handle, while not perfectly straight, was plum to the cutting edge and to the head. The racked poll threw me off a bit, but when I lined it up on my level, it was pretty much dead on. The cutting edge was straight (not twisted like the previous one). Sharpness was about the same.
I got to working with it a bit and F'd up the edge already, but left it like that for the pics. I'll work it later. Since this isn't a cheap hardware store axe, I wanted your advice on this. It's rolled over at several areas and I don't want to just take a bastard file to it right off the jump or be too aggressive with it. Along with that, I have a Lansky Puck, Lansky Honing Oil and an Arkansas Stone + a DMT 1200 mini-diamond block. I'm assuming a light pass with the file first to remove the areas where it's been rolled over, a pass over with the Lansky Puck w/oil to shape it, then the Ark Stone to start putting an edge back on it and finally the DMT just to clean it up. Please advise.
Other than that, generally, she is as good as I can expect for something "not' manufactured by a machine AND I really appreciate the dibits and tooling marks on it. For the 1/2 an hour I spend playing with it, it felt instinctual. Nice fit in my hand. Nice balance. It felt like a quality bit. From the moment I first bit into wood with it, I knew it was a good tool an I grinned ear to ear.
The work you see below; I chopped that 3" tree section while holding it (it was about 4-5' long) with my left hand and chopping with my right hand in well under 60 seconds or so. The axe really bit into that wood and it just spat out large chunks. I split that same section in one fell swoop as well (a section of about 24" long on end). I re-cut one of the 24"X 3" pieces but while laying it against a railroad tie to use the axe with both hands. While it was much better than the 20" axe I was considering, I'm certainly glad I have the 27.5" Council on the way. This will be used as a Bushcraft Axe while the Council will be for more serious work.
I'm sure you'll all agree that there's a significant difference between this and the previous version I received. All in all, the handle was relatively straight (even against my level), the cutting edge and the head was plum to the handle and it performed it's tasks very satisfactorily. Again, I never expect/ed "perfect" or flawless from something that is crafted by hand, but this is definitely worth the $86. I paid for it + shipping, but NOT worth the $8. I had to pay to ship it back. Under ordinary circumstances, I'd want the return shipping to be paid for by the seller, but again, because it was already a great price for it (at $91. initially) and I got a 5% discount on top of that, I didn't want to be a "short name for Richard" and just let it go. That would've been petty of me. So, in total, it ended up costing me about $102. (including original shipping and return shipping).
Now, I would've gladly paid the going rate of about $126. for it if I could have picked one out myself knowing what I know now. Either way, I can't cry. I would've been ticked if I couldn't get a decent version. Lesson learned? Pick out my own axe by hand next time even if it costs me $24. more and a trip out to wherever I can locate one (I only say that now because I'll be moving within 1/2 an hour from a place I know that carries them).
Tomorrow, the Council Tool Boy's Axe US Forest Service Edition arrives. If that one shows up in imperfect condition, whatevs. As long as it's not unsafe, I'll manage with it. But there would've been no excuse for me to keep the Wetterlings FFA "just because" it was a Wetterlings or because I got it at a good price. To the contrary. If anything, "because" it's a Wetterlings, it should always be a high quality product.
And now the pics...
Nothing but wood.
Although, I did get a little aggressive while feathersticking with it before I realized I had hit a knot.
So what do you think? File first, then puck/stone/block after?
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