whose warranties cover unintentional abuse/breakage?

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Cliff Stamp said:
No they never replaced it as I never sent it in to them. It was given to me for a review in the first place and I would never seek a warranty replacement on that class of blade. Plus I intended to load the blade until it cracked as I wanted to see how far it went and how it cracked. It broke as I expected it would for its type of steel.


There is no way you can even begin to place them in the same class with regards to warranty and customer service with Busse, Swamp Rat, HI, etc. .

-Cliff
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Sorry im late on this....


Okay so let me get this correct....

You never asked for a warrantee....so we didn't give you one.

That means we don't do it for anyone? How were we to know you wanted one if you didn’t ask? Should our warrantee include us being psychic?

How can you say our warrantee isn't as good as another, if you have never used it?

That’s what I thought….

i see your level of….whatever it is you posses, hasn't changed over the years. Your still a moron, who claims to be a scientist. While its true that you claim to do these “tests”, why should knife companies give you product to do it? Are you being asked or paid to do it? If so, by whom, because your clearly NOT impartial……So then should we send a new knife to ANYONE who decides to put it in a vise and break it? Where does it stop?

Even someone as contemptuous as yourself WOULD have gotten a replacement had you:

1. Paid for the first knife

2. Asked for a replacement.

Since you didn’t do either one…..your clearly attempting to spread lies....Why is that?
Are you impartial? NO
Are you a scientist? NO

Do you have ANY idea what so ever as to what the hell your doing? Again, unfortunately, no you don’t.

Your testing methods are in no way even remotely valid.

I have to say….im VERY surprised your still an entity in this world….Well…..really your not…just here at Blade Forums…..

Everyone, every where else, is laughing there asses off at you….pretty much as it should be.


Mr Busse himself has videos with his knives..... Where are Micks videos showing him bending a MT-L ???
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Our knives don’t bend. A bent knife is totally useless, I would rather have a broken useful part of a knife than a bent piece of metal that wont even go back into its sheath…..

Plus…if you like, I can show you a video of me lifting my dodge truck over my head…..do you always believe what you see in videos?

If you base your knife choice by a video…..you don’t need a Strider Knife…buy more videos instead.


Our warrantee is simple.
If you are dissatisfied, we will do what we can to make it right. If you break a knife, we’ll replace it. If we WONT replace it, (because you’re an idiot) we WILL give you back your money. Period!

sal said:
It seems, in my opinion, unconditional warrantees are never unconditional.
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So then I guess yours isn’t? Bummer for your customers bro….thought you had more pride in your gear……I would…your knives kick ass.



What an odd thread…

I wonder if Cliff has some sort of agenda......no couldn't be.....






m
 
I would love to give you a link that is un-realted to the USN, but becasue of the skills one of the members posesses (can translate German), it is relevant and vital to this conversation.
 
Mick Strider said:
. . .

Our warrantee is simple.
If you are dissatisfied, we will do what we can to make it right. If you break a knife, we’ll replace it. If we WONT replace it, (because you’re an idiot) we WILL give you back your money. Period!
Click to expand...


Addressing only the quoted words, it is hard to find any fault with such a warranty.
 
Mick Strider said:
Originally Posted by sal
"It seems, in my opinion, unconditional warrantees are never unconditional."

-So then I guess yours isn’t? Bummer for your customers bro….thought you had more pride in your gear……I would…your knives kick ass.
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Breathe Mick. ;)

No, Spyderco does not advertise an unconditional warranty. They call theirs "Fair, Honest and Proper" which basically says that if there's a problem, send 'em the knife and if it doesn't look like you tried to pry the hatch off a T-72 they'll fix it.

If it does look like that , they'll let you know how much it'll be to fix. And if it looks like you slipped, fell off the T-72 and you and your knife got run over by the rest of the 26th Motor Rifles, they'll tell you to retire the freakin' thing.
 
To me a warranty means nothing. If I break a knife and I think it should be replaced I will send it back. If they don't replace it I'll get another knife. Nothing lasts forever not even my taste in knives or need for a single style knife.
 
oteyj said:
I would love to give you a link that is un-realted to the USN, but becasue of the skills one of the members posesses (can translate German), it is relevant and vital to this conversation.
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see if this works... got the text, but the photos wouldn't work. great first post in a long time huh? :p

***note: test was orignally done by Messerforums. then translated by a non-native German speaker, so the translation is a little rough***

chris

*************************************

Comparisontest : Extrema Ratio Fulcrum IID vs. Strider GB



Methods of testing:

Both candidates underwent hard testings. To test stability of blade and handle a hydraulic presss was used - every knive will break with thatone.

1) Cuttingtest - pulling:
Testmedium here was the by now known Polyporpylenrope with an 8mm (0.315") diameter. Tested was, how well the knive will cut through that rope with a pulling cut and normal pressure applied. Several trials were done one after another, the number of cuts needed to finally cut through the rope were noted. At the end of that test an average was calculated. These were compared and points given in analogy to the cutting performance.



2) Cuttingtest - pushing down:
Testmedium was again the 8mm (0.315") Polypropylenrope. Tested was, how good the knive would cut through the rope only by pushing down, no longitudinal movement. Here the blade was pressed down hard with both hands. It wsa measured, how deep the blade could penetrate the rope or how often a rocking/swaying (?) motion ws needed to cut through the rope. At the end of this test, again an average was calculated. These were compared and points given in analogy to the cutting perfomance.



3) Test - edge retention:
To test the staiblity of the edge and the wear while using it, a very nasty material was cut : a steel square tub (St-37). The edge was pulled over the edge of that square tub several times with light pressure. Inbetween these cuts the edge was tested on the rope to compare how good or bad it could cut that one. Thereby it became clear, that the original edge and sharpness was lost very fast, still both knives could still cut even after several cuts on the square tub. In comparison the Strider SPB-S30V blade proved to keep its edge slightly better.



4) Grip - test:
The Knive's blade was mounted to a vice, the handle and hand were rubbed with the good and old-known Ballistol-weapon oil. This was done to simulate the effect of Dirt, blod and humidity. Here the secure grip and/or how easily it would slip out of the user's hand was tested. The subjective results were converted into points. Here the Strider proved to have a lot of grip in oily condition (not less than dry), while the Extrema Ratio was very slippery due to the smooht/slick surface.



5) Test blade tip:
To test the stability of the blade tip and also the whole knive construction while stabbing, both knives were pushed straight through a 2mm (0.079") thick steel plate (St-37 construction steel). Here a hydraulic press was used. the Strider GB bend noticably to the side, but flexed back into its inital position. At a hydraulic pressure of 85bar the tip broke off - exactly at the point of time where it completely penetrated the steel plate. The Extrema Ratio blade was "not impressed" (?), the locking bent at a pressure of 65bar though. The bolt safeguard of the locking (??) was not activated on purpose, to prevent the handle from blowing/breaking appart. With that safety a higher pressure would have been possible and the Fulcrum might have also penetrated the steel plate.



6) Lock(-ing) test
Both knives were first tested with spine-whacking, to perform a dynamic test to the lock. Here the back of both blades were repeatedly beaten onto a hard surfaceö Both knives passed the test without difficulties. Then a static test to the lock was performed with a hydraulic press. With a slowly raising pressure across the blade pivot, the maximum load was tested. The Fulcrums bolt/hammer of it's lock failed at a pressure of 70bar, releasing it's blade (without bolt safety/safeguard). With activated bolt safety a higher load would havebeen possible, until the whole handle would break apart. the liner locking mechanism of the Strider GM kept up until 80bar, untl the liner failed. The extreme load/force/stress (?) did not leave any marks on both knives.


7)bending test blade:
Both blades were one after another put onto two pads/bases and put under presssure with the hydraulic press in the middle. The Strider GB blade proved to be of etreme elasticity - in spite of the powdermetallic steel (?). Not before a pressure of 83 bar (which resembles a high load in transverse direction), the blade broke into several parts. At that point of testing a bending degree of nearly 30° was reached. The extreme thick blade of the Extreme Ratio Fulcrum II passed that test nearly unimpressed. It kept up until the hydraulics maximum pressure of 85 bar was reached and moved back nearly to it's initial position. A slightly deviation of one to two degree (angular transformation) (?) was left.



8)bearing test:
To test the bearing and handle construction, both knives were put under vertical load/pressure with the hydraulic press.The knives were positioned in such way, that the handle was on the right, the blade on the left side based onto a block, putting pressure directly onto the bearing. The hydraulic press support point was immediatly behind the pivot. The Strider GB proved its impressive flexibility of its handle, which flexed back into its original state. Here the Ti-liners showed their strenght and flexibility. At a pressure of 80bar the outer ring of the pivot blew off. The Extrema Ratio Fulcrum also withstood 80bar, a permanent deformation of the handles stayed.



Short Comparison:
Extreama Ration Fulcrum II D:
positive:
+solid construcion
+high quality
+reasonable price
+low weight
+integrated glass breaker

negative:
-restricted/limited cutting properties
-slippery handle surface
-high operating power needed (?)


Strider GB:
positive:
+though construction
+good cutting properties
+secure, large handle/gripp
+good/comfortable handling
+good workmanship

negative:
-very high price
-high weight
-tough/tight clip
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Why would I buy a knife when the maker has said it doesn't have the performance I want, to check and see if he is wrong. That seems kind of silly. What about if he is right, now I just wasted $300+ .

-Cliff
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Cliff Note or Food Stamp or whatever.


I think you sniff glue.

Or paint.

Or some kind of solvent.

If I mail you $5 will you go down to Circle K and buy a clue?
 
I own a Strider AR that has cut seat belts, cut a tire off a tractor, gutted road kill deer, cut pant leg material from bicycle spokes, cleared 275 Pot plants, pried the crap out of a locker door, and a load, of general abuse over a three year period.

I needed a knife that I could trust 100% and the warranty 100%. I chose Strider and I made the right choice.

What a knife, built for heavy-duty use and a bitch to break. But if it does I am certain Strider will do whatever it takes to make things right.

That's the way they do business, period.
 
wolfmann601 said:
I own a Strider AR that has cut seat belts, cut a tire off a tractor, gutted road kill deer, cut pant leg material from bicycle spokes, cleared 275 Pot plants, pried the crap out of a locker door, and a load, of general abuse over a three year period.
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My CS Voyager has done similar things; it never cleared pot plants but it has been batoned through wood. It never cut a tire off a tractor but it did saw through the tire on my Toyota. (Including the belt.) It has done more than this as well. After a year of my torments, the teeth on the serrations were pretty beat up.

I did what I'd been meaning to do for nearly a year - I took the thing to the belt sander and ground off the serrations. It's now halfway through its second year of duty. I'm expecting it to make it to three. I will be surprised if it doesn't go beyond this.

I'm knocking neither you nor Strider, Wolfmann...I'm merely stating that this is not what I expect of a high end knife. This is what I expect of every knife. If a $50 dollar one can do it, a $300+ had better be able to do it.

I don't own a Strider and don't expect to in the near future due to the price, but I'm certainly not discounting them. If their warranty is indeed what it claims to be, I may be a customer sometime in the future. In fact, I have to say that I'm intrigued by Mick Strider's enthusiasm. When (or if) the old Voyager gives up the ghost, I just may be contacting him.

I don't care about blade steel, lock configuration, or blade shape - this doesn't matter to me. I'm not a knifemaker. I'm a knife user. If little elves come out of the knife every time I unfold it and do the work for me I'm fine with that, as long as it does what I want it to do, when I want it to do it, at a price that I consider reasonable as compared to its lifespan.

Some of us are a bit hard on Cliff. That's understandable - he doesn't pull punches when it comes to stating his opinions. If he's not pleased with my knife of choice, I'm not worried about it; after all, I have mine and I know it's better than what he claims it to be. His loss is my gain. On the other end of the spectrum, I'd rather have someone else buying and breaking knives so that I don't have to. Cliff's opinion is not law. It's one man's opinion. It should be read, noted, weighed as appropriate and considered as necessary. It means as much or as little as I want it to. Consequently, while we may deride such unscientific tests as hacking up wood or prying boards apart, that's how knives are sometimes used. It's not scientific but it is applicable to some folks. I've never used a hydraulic press to drive a knife through a steel plate. Scientific, yes...but does this apply to me? Again, this is yet another source of information to be studied and given consideration. It is not the final word, and neither is Cliff's testing. It's just something to think about.

Some of us are rather hard on Frost Cutlery. (The bad one.) I got one from a friend simply for evaluation - I wanted to know why they were so bad. Granted, I had to dig through 10 of them before I found one with a lock that functioned correctly; also, I have to resharpen it after each day of use and it flexes alarmingly when used for prying, but other than this, it works. ("Works," meaning, every time that I used it for a task, it successfully performed it - from cutting fabric to breaking down ammo crates.) It's survived three weeks of my abuse already, surpassing several brand name knives that I've owned that have a better reputation and cost considerably more. Is it a good knife? No. It's a piece of junk. I have better things to do with my time than spending twenty minutes each night resharpening a knife...but it did its job for about $1.50, bulk price. There's a lesson in this.

As I said, the "how" is not important. I just want to know if it "will." The specifics, to me, are not relevant. I'll let the professionals handle that part.
 
I think this thread is getting strange.

Thanx Tortoise.

Nice post Satori.

First, I will retract my statement about breaking a knife for you. Aplologies. We can do an accurate test, which we do for our own knives, but it is our policy not to share that information with the public. I was more "teasing" Aniketos than making an offer.

We are capable and would break a knife for Mick, for his own development, but our "rules" are; (1) we do not tell the results and (2) the maker cannot use the results for any type promotion. We are not an accredited agency to perform such tests and we don't want the job. We built our testing quipment to ensure to us that our knives were performing as planned.

Hey Mick. We don't offer an "unconditional" warrantee. Too many a$$holes take "unconditional" to be license to destroy or even a challenge.

Isn't this the 2nd time we've had to communicate over this same issue?

I think I have as much pride in my knives as you do in yours. I think our quality and attention to detail shows our pride as does yours. I also believe that we take care of our customers, as you do. The "Ginsu Knife" Warrantee is better than yours or mine. I would not take that as an indication of pride.

As much as I respect you, I have to call you on calling Cliff names. I know you are proud of your knives, but, as far as "opinions" go, his "opinion" has as much value as my "opinion" or your "opinion". There are few absolutes and this is a forum discussion. :)

To us, "reliable high performance" is strong, safe and light with powerful cutting capabilities. Think (formula 1 race-cars).

To you, high performance is indestructable, even if prying. (think tank).

"All good, just different".

As manufacturers, we can build whatever we choose. If the Military wants us to build a "tank" for them, we will build them a tank. But they will have to give up light weight and some cutting performance.

If you wanted an "unconditional life-time warrantee, we would have to build for that, and charge for that up front, hence the high price for a Strider.

If the Military wants Mick to build a light racer, he can build them a light racer. But they will have to give up some of the "indestructable", (which requires more mass), and they probably wouldn't be able to warrantee that you couldn't break it.

This thread was about warrantees against abuse. Even Mick has his "idiot" condition regarding abuse. NO MANUFACTURER appreciates an abusive customer.

Trying to create a "pissin' match" between Mick and Chris Reeve or me or Exteme ratio is just plain ignorant, even destructive. We all have different offerings.

As to warrantees, we all create warrantees that we believe will please the customer we are trying to reach. In the end, the customer always pays for the warrantee, one way or another or the company goes out of business.

It seems to me that Cliff has his opinion of what a warrantee should or should not have and how he responds to those "words". Each of you also have your opinions, which obviously are not the same.

sal
 
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