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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
whose warranties cover unintentional abuse/breakage?
- Thread starter Billmanweh
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That´s exactly what i do with my BM 520. No kidding and it stands up shining again and again. OK, not carving at Rushmore but here we rebuildt the roman Limes and therefore many trees has to be clearcutted. The 520 cleans them like they were made from paper every day and only needs a touch up in the evening. No microchips, no bladeplay nothing.
Ah yes, i never stabed a bird by throwing the 520 at it, but catched one hitting it with the but end. The bird fell with a blue eye, fantastic knife.
Ah yes, i never stabed a bird by throwing the 520 at it, but catched one hitting it with the but end. The bird fell with a blue eye, fantastic knife.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
Every knife can cut any material if you apply enough force to it, thus are sharpness and edge geometry irrelevant? And handle is secure if you apply enough force to the grip and your hands are tough enough, so is handle design of no consequence?Mongo-man said:
Yes all knives break, some do so more easily than others, thus means they have a wider scope of work and can thus handle a greater variety of tasks, or be used for the same set of tasks by a wider scope of users with different amounts of skill / physical ability.
You have to register to see anything, it is a private forum.Blop said:
I just slash the air infront of it, creating a shock wave which knocks the bird out.Blop said:
-Cliff
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,331
Really looking forward to the Ed Schempp/Spyderco FB.
I was chopping brush around a fence line, swung too hard, and went through the brush and into an old marble countertop that was concealed under the brush. Took a chip out of my HI 16.5 WWII- though the damage to the marble was much more extensive!
Since the HI, despite its toughness, was not designed to chop marble, I counted myself fortunate that the chip wasn't larger. I would not have thought about sending it back to HI. OTOH, if I had been chopping wood- expected usage- and a larger chip had happened- back it would go.
Kudos to the cool heads in this thread.
John
I was chopping brush around a fence line, swung too hard, and went through the brush and into an old marble countertop that was concealed under the brush. Took a chip out of my HI 16.5 WWII- though the damage to the marble was much more extensive!
Since the HI, despite its toughness, was not designed to chop marble, I counted myself fortunate that the chip wasn't larger. I would not have thought about sending it back to HI. OTOH, if I had been chopping wood- expected usage- and a larger chip had happened- back it would go.Kudos to the cool heads in this thread.
John
Thombrogan
Not wanting to prolong this thread much longer it appears that my understanding of the English Language must be much diminished. It seems to me that you continue to misread what I have written. I was referring to the Blackhawk Small yet you wander off to kitchen knives which had nothing to do with my assertion that the Small was not a chopping instrument.
You ask me to define cutting instrument and say I am omitting chopping from cutting. I have used the term cutting instrument as it is used by Blackjack Knives since the knife under discussion was a Blackjack Small. I was attempting to, albeit it seems unsuccessfully, point out that the manufacturer saw this particular knife as a cutting instrument. I only omitted chopping for this particular knife of course there are plenty of knives out there that are designed for chopping and tested as such.
It is obvious that we are not going to agree on this matter at all. I can only restate that there is a difference between Knife Reviews and Knife Testing and whilst people continue to put out knife testing under the guise of Knife Reviews they do the industry a dis-service. There may very well be a place indeed a demand for Knife Testing but if that is to be the case there has to be some form of verification process of which none exists to my knowledge at the moment.
Not wanting to prolong this thread much longer it appears that my understanding of the English Language must be much diminished. It seems to me that you continue to misread what I have written. I was referring to the Blackhawk Small yet you wander off to kitchen knives which had nothing to do with my assertion that the Small was not a chopping instrument.
You ask me to define cutting instrument and say I am omitting chopping from cutting. I have used the term cutting instrument as it is used by Blackjack Knives since the knife under discussion was a Blackjack Small. I was attempting to, albeit it seems unsuccessfully, point out that the manufacturer saw this particular knife as a cutting instrument. I only omitted chopping for this particular knife of course there are plenty of knives out there that are designed for chopping and tested as such.
It is obvious that we are not going to agree on this matter at all. I can only restate that there is a difference between Knife Reviews and Knife Testing and whilst people continue to put out knife testing under the guise of Knife Reviews they do the industry a dis-service. There may very well be a place indeed a demand for Knife Testing but if that is to be the case there has to be some form of verification process of which none exists to my knowledge at the moment.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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- Oct 9, 1998
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- 75,795
BigMike said:
Your next troll gets you banned.
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- Feb 16, 2000
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- 1,385
My issue with cliffs tests.
Okay.
We have already established that cliffs tests are invalid due to the fact that he is in no way impartial. The proof of this is undisputed and obvious in the fact that he states himself that his sole reason for discrediting our guarantee is that we hurt his feelings.
id like to address this really quickly.
Back in the day, we would go to shows and take a tanto off the table and use it to chip holes in the concrete floor and chop chunks of metal out of the table legs.
So then cliff decides, thats the
Note* jabbing the armor piercing tip into concrete and hacking the primary edge through concrete are NOT the same thing.
But so what ..lets move on.
If you want to call it science and not a retarded garage hack test, you need to go a lot more in depth .
This would be a true Forensic Engineering testing platform:
Ten knives are needed per skew. The knives would need to be purchased each from different dealers. Not from the knife company. Each knife would need to be purchased a month apart to make sure all ten did not come from the same production batch. This step is needed to insure that your not getting a ringer. Additionally, this sidesteps any claim that the knife was a best or worst ever made. (We all have a best and worst)
All ten knives would be destroyed and an analysis would be formed.
This would in no way work with ASTM or ANSI but id be okay with it.
Of course this test is only valid if done by a totally impartial entity, which isnt that easy to find but they are out there.
If I want something tested .why in the world would I send it to cliff?
We ALL know how he feels. We all know he doesnt do any kind of actual Forensic Engineering.
If I want it tested, ill do one of two things.
1. my partner Duane is certified with ASNT.
2. Ill just keep asking all the life takers/savers that keep being issued our gear.
cliff WHO?
Who cares ..
m
Okay.
We have already established that cliffs tests are invalid due to the fact that he is in no way impartial. The proof of this is undisputed and obvious in the fact that he states himself that his sole reason for discrediting our guarantee is that we hurt his feelings.
cliff in post #19 said:
cliff in post #19 said:
id like to address this really quickly.
Back in the day, we would go to shows and take a tanto off the table and use it to chip holes in the concrete floor and chop chunks of metal out of the table legs.
So then cliff decides, thats the
as using the knife to chop up a concrete block.
Note* jabbing the armor piercing tip into concrete and hacking the primary edge through concrete are NOT the same thing.
But so what ..lets move on.
If you want to call it science and not a retarded garage hack test, you need to go a lot more in depth .
This would be a true Forensic Engineering testing platform:
Ten knives are needed per skew. The knives would need to be purchased each from different dealers. Not from the knife company. Each knife would need to be purchased a month apart to make sure all ten did not come from the same production batch. This step is needed to insure that your not getting a ringer. Additionally, this sidesteps any claim that the knife was a best or worst ever made. (We all have a best and worst)
All ten knives would be destroyed and an analysis would be formed.
This would in no way work with ASTM or ANSI but id be okay with it.
Of course this test is only valid if done by a totally impartial entity, which isnt that easy to find but they are out there.
If I want something tested .why in the world would I send it to cliff?
We ALL know how he feels. We all know he doesnt do any kind of actual Forensic Engineering.
If I want it tested, ill do one of two things.
1. my partner Duane is certified with ASNT.
2. Ill just keep asking all the life takers/savers that keep being issued our gear.
cliff WHO?
Who cares ..
m
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,063
Mick,
I do not understand why you wouild need ten different samples to prevent skew. If you quality control is good, i.e. all knives are ground to about the same measurements, you make your knives with the same quality of components, the heat treat is proper and consistent, etc. A high degree of quality control, where all knives are built to the same high standards prevents skew, not multiple samples.
While there may be very minor variations, the effect should be harmless. One knife should not pass with flying colors where another would suffer gross failure. That is my understanding of the essence of quality control.
It sounds like the demonstrations you did were not the same as the tests Cliff performed. If that is the case, were the results of Cliff's tests the expected behavior for your product, i.e. if the primary edge is hacked into concrete, is it expected that it will fail? What are the expected limits of your knives?
I am sure you have broekn many knives in your shop in Researching and design stages, as well as just to check heat treat and QC. At what point do they break, and how extreme can they be safely used?
I ask this because if your knives are designed to be used in the direst of circumstances, that would probably be a bad time to find out what the knife's limits are in my opinion. I am sure soliders test fire their weapopns before carrying them in the field, both to test the weapon and gain familiarity with it. Shouldn't the same be done with a knife?
If so, there is nothing wrong with that, it is the expected result, no suprise, no need to get upset. If somone note that my Jeep Wrangler can not go 150MPH, I would agree and point out that such performance is not within its intended scope of use or performance envelope.
If The failure shown in the test wasnot the expected result, then perhaps there was a flaw in the steel or heat treat. Have you examined the broken knife to see if this is the case? If not, would you be interested in doing that?
Did you ask Cliff to test your knife as he implies, or otherwise support or endorse his testing when you found he planned on doing so? Did you communicate with him via email or phone as to the expeced performance and durability of your knives? If so, would you be as upset by his methods if your knife pased with flying colors?
Obviously tightly controlled, standardized testing would be excellent, and as a consumer I would love to see the results. However, it could be very expensive, certainly beyond the means of a hobbiest reviewer.
I am not trying to start any problems,these just seem like logical questions to me.
I respect the fact that you cater to the specific needs of our troops, as well as your personal service to insure the safety of our great country, please do not feel I am trying to attack or dimish you in any way.
Your company has lots of very satisfied and loyal customers, many who I am sure use their knives in the most stressful ways under the worst of circumstances. You must be doing something right to have earned their loyalty and trust, such as building a high quality knife, backing it up all the way and providing excellent customer service. This has all been reported here and on other forums.
I would not try to insult you because it is not my nature, I try to be very polite. Also, I am scared that if I did you would track me and smash my face in with a hammer.
Seriously, I don't make personal attacks and I don't like them made towards me.
Thank you for your time and consideration in replying to my questions.
KT
I do not understand why you wouild need ten different samples to prevent skew. If you quality control is good, i.e. all knives are ground to about the same measurements, you make your knives with the same quality of components, the heat treat is proper and consistent, etc. A high degree of quality control, where all knives are built to the same high standards prevents skew, not multiple samples.
While there may be very minor variations, the effect should be harmless. One knife should not pass with flying colors where another would suffer gross failure. That is my understanding of the essence of quality control.
It sounds like the demonstrations you did were not the same as the tests Cliff performed. If that is the case, were the results of Cliff's tests the expected behavior for your product, i.e. if the primary edge is hacked into concrete, is it expected that it will fail? What are the expected limits of your knives?
I am sure you have broekn many knives in your shop in Researching and design stages, as well as just to check heat treat and QC. At what point do they break, and how extreme can they be safely used?
I ask this because if your knives are designed to be used in the direst of circumstances, that would probably be a bad time to find out what the knife's limits are in my opinion. I am sure soliders test fire their weapopns before carrying them in the field, both to test the weapon and gain familiarity with it. Shouldn't the same be done with a knife?
If so, there is nothing wrong with that, it is the expected result, no suprise, no need to get upset. If somone note that my Jeep Wrangler can not go 150MPH, I would agree and point out that such performance is not within its intended scope of use or performance envelope.
If The failure shown in the test wasnot the expected result, then perhaps there was a flaw in the steel or heat treat. Have you examined the broken knife to see if this is the case? If not, would you be interested in doing that?
Did you ask Cliff to test your knife as he implies, or otherwise support or endorse his testing when you found he planned on doing so? Did you communicate with him via email or phone as to the expeced performance and durability of your knives? If so, would you be as upset by his methods if your knife pased with flying colors?
Obviously tightly controlled, standardized testing would be excellent, and as a consumer I would love to see the results. However, it could be very expensive, certainly beyond the means of a hobbiest reviewer.
I am not trying to start any problems,these just seem like logical questions to me.
I respect the fact that you cater to the specific needs of our troops, as well as your personal service to insure the safety of our great country, please do not feel I am trying to attack or dimish you in any way.
Your company has lots of very satisfied and loyal customers, many who I am sure use their knives in the most stressful ways under the worst of circumstances. You must be doing something right to have earned their loyalty and trust, such as building a high quality knife, backing it up all the way and providing excellent customer service. This has all been reported here and on other forums.
I would not try to insult you because it is not my nature, I try to be very polite. Also, I am scared that if I did you would track me and smash my face in with a hammer.
Seriously, I don't make personal attacks and I don't like them made towards me. Thank you for your time and consideration in replying to my questions.
KT
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 12,249
I always find it interesting that there is a great great number of people who either claim: 1) Cliff has an Agenda, 2) Cliff's test aren't valid 3) Cliff test aren't scientific enough.
BUT
Out of all these people there is not even one person willing to even try to test something let alone actually do any testing.
BUT
Out of all these people there is not even one person willing to even try to test something let alone actually do any testing.
First of all, the constant use of the word "retarded" is an insult to those of us who have disabilities that restrict our abilities. Or those of us who have children, relatives, friends etc who have learning disabilities. The use of that phrase is not conducive to conversations that should be civilized in nature, and tends to reflect badly on the person making the offensive remark.
Secondly, the concept being posted that most of those that read or contribute posts here are of a certain opinion concerning Mr. Stamp's testing entertains certain agendas, either pro or con, concerning a knife are baseless generalizations, and bears absolutely no merit.
Those whose sacred cow, strider knives in this case, are tested to failure rabidly scream "foul" and then resort to "poo poo ka ka" mentality of a young child.
Mr Strider, who is respected by a lot of folks, takes the bait, whenever it is cast before him, and reacts in a manner that provides entertainment for many, and fuel for the fire concerning the debate at hand.
The title of this thread included the word "unintentional" abuse/breakage, and somehow has evolved to intentional testing to the point of failure.
Guess I just don't get it, being mentally challenged, learning disabled, dyslexic and all.
Can't we all just get along?
Thomas
Secondly, the concept being posted that most of those that read or contribute posts here are of a certain opinion concerning Mr. Stamp's testing entertains certain agendas, either pro or con, concerning a knife are baseless generalizations, and bears absolutely no merit.
Those whose sacred cow, strider knives in this case, are tested to failure rabidly scream "foul" and then resort to "poo poo ka ka" mentality of a young child.
Mr Strider, who is respected by a lot of folks, takes the bait, whenever it is cast before him, and reacts in a manner that provides entertainment for many, and fuel for the fire concerning the debate at hand.
The title of this thread included the word "unintentional" abuse/breakage, and somehow has evolved to intentional testing to the point of failure.
Guess I just don't get it, being mentally challenged, learning disabled, dyslexic and all.
Can't we all just get along?
Thomas
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,207
I can sell anyone a knife with an unconditional warranty, even covering loosing the knife.
Do whatever you want with it. If it breaks or in any way you are not happy with it or even if you loose it - it will be repaired or replaced.*+^
*Proof of purchase required.
^Shipping not included.
+All prices cover warranty.
=========================================
to Cliff and Sal: You both enlighten me, thank you.
Do whatever you want with it. If it breaks or in any way you are not happy with it or even if you loose it - it will be repaired or replaced.*+^
*Proof of purchase required.
^Shipping not included.
+All prices cover warranty.
=========================================
to Cliff and Sal: You both enlighten me, thank you.
Cougar Allen said:
I'm a troll because I told Food Stamp to put a sock in it?
If that's the case then go ahead and ban me.
I only told him to put a sock in it because I was being nice, that day.
How about I just tell him to quit running his suck?
Buncha damn Crybabies...keep the negative feedback coming, because I don't share the delusions of Food Stamp...guess it's my fault for not eating enough paintchips as a child.
The only thing I'm really wondering about is who, or how did Cliff get the knife.
Mick says in p353, "If I want something tested .why in the world would I send it to cliff?"
And cliff says in p297, "1) Do you deny that you sent me the WB to review. Do you deny that your responce to the review were personal attacks and more than a little negative."
Mick says in p353, "If I want something tested .why in the world would I send it to cliff?"
And cliff says in p297, "1) Do you deny that you sent me the WB to review. Do you deny that your responce to the review were personal attacks and more than a little negative."
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