whose warranties cover unintentional abuse/breakage?

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Pardon m y possible error, but I thought a "spine wack" test was a recognized test of the security of the lock-up of a lock-blade knife. It is certainly much discussed and I was surprised to hear that a maker of a "premium" lock-blade would describe is as abuse ipso facto (Of course anything can be overdone.)

Also, with respect, 50,000,000 is a very large number, even for what a Strider folder is said by some to be.
 
Aniketos said:
Isnt it benchmade who says not to do this because it may damage the blade?
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Wasn´t it BMST II on their forums saying, that there never was a problem about it?

And they don´t exclude it.

"Don´t use your knife as a screwdriver or as a throwing knife..."

"Don´t desassample your knife"

These are the main exclusions.

BM replaced a knife which didn´t passed my spine whacks without hesitation.

No question asked.
 
A warranty should be like a SWL (Safe Working Load) if it fails during a task that it is advertised as being able to do, then it should be replaced FOC and promptly. I for one would not consider buying a Strider now.

I think Cliff has enough experience with knives, testing and maker claims to not be accused of being an idiot.
 
Aniketos said:
"The warrenty policy they stated is directly inferior" Where is their warranty inferior man?????
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You can void the warrenty by attempting to duplicate the work they use to promote their knives. This is one of the weakest warrenties. They have openly stated this, thus you have direct proof from the makers themselves.

I'll spell it out for you :

1) They promote their knives for chopping steel and concrete

2) I break a WB chopping concrete

3) I get told publically it was abusive, I am an idiot and that a replacement will be so marked to note that the warrenty is voided.

First of all I never talked about whacks against a target.. .
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Never said you did, just pointed out that Strider has yet another warrenty restriction which you are unaware of which puts their folders under many others in terms of hard use.

-Cliff
 
Aniketos,

Thank you for the link, I'll have to check it out.

It's strange to me, that a company like Strider that portrays their knives as being "high performance", doesn't have any testing data to support their claims (at least none that I've been able to find). If I made knives that were as good as they say theirs are, I'd be bragging about the abilities of the knives all over the place. Posting the pictures and the data to support the claims.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Striders and while you've been helpful trying to answer my questions, none of the info I've wanted has been found. So I guess my question is, does the testing data even exist?

All I want is to see the company's testing data(or pictures) to illustate what I can expect from one of their knives if I buy one. This really doesn't seem like a lot to ask.

Thanks again for your help.

Joel J
 
Strider's warranty is unconditional.

I am not aware of anyone who has turned in a broken one and not had it replaced or repaired.

Now if someone repeatedly, purposefully damages their knife for some strange reason, they may give the guy a warning about it.

As far as testing,

Their knives are routinely tested by DOD elements, MC SOCOM, MARCORSYSCOM, NSW etc.

These are milspec tests that have standardized requirements set by the user agency.

All of the ones I have been privy to, no one's knives ever came close to Micks.

Also if you want to do an actual scientific test you would need to test batches of knives, not just one or two.

We have done alot of this stuff over the years

User Agency or contracted testing house usually gets 30-40 test samples for each scientific test- deflection, edge retention, Point Impact, Lateral Impact, salt spray, fuel absorbtion, corrosion etc.

"Best" Warranty- just a matter of semantics there. As long as your knife works for the job it was intended; and if it happens to break you get satisfaction from the manufacturer its a good warranty.

Everybody has their personal feelings about what knife they like the best, just like Fords and Chevys, buy what you like.

Just my .02

-Josh

P.S.

Saw the "Spine Whack" test mentioned. This damages a knife. You are basically banging metal against metal in a non-use sort of way. With titanium lock bars it even more damaging. You are pounding a hardened steel (Rc 59-61) against a material that can't get harder than Rc 46. After a while your lock bar will not lock as solid as before and your knife will have vertical blade play. If you are using the spine of a folding knife as some form of impact tool, you may need to reassess your choice of tools. In a folder the blade stops are the most impacted during use. The lock should keep the knife open during use of the cutting edge (the sharp part)
 
Hi Mongo-man. Thanx for the kind words and confidence.

Frankly, I was surprized to see this thread still going.

Wrrantees over the past 30 years or so have become more of a sales and marketing tool than real warrantees.

I think one needs to take a step back and look at this more realistically.

A well known company used to offer an unconditional lifetime warrantee on their very strong folding knives. The retail price was high enough over the manufacturing costs to cover the costs of the "occasional" knife coming back.

Popularity grew, models increased. Some of their models were being produced for them, OEM, by another knife manufacturer. To make a long story short, the OEM manufacturer couldn't honor the unconditional lifetime warrantee at the OEM price, the numbers of "older" knives kept coming back and eventually the warrantee had to be modified.

Most warrantees cover their costs somewhere. The cost may be covered in the high retail price, if the item is expensive. The cost may be covered in the "insurance" that you buy when purchasing. The cost may be in the Shipping and handling fees for low cost items.

But trust me, the customer will pay for the warrantee, somewhere. Sometimes it is you that are paying for the warrantee of the "abuse" person as well.

People that intentionally break things just because "the warrantee says I can" are abusive. It's those type that cause manufacturers to change their warrantees. In fact IMO, it's those "types" that muck it up for everyone else, but that's another discussion.

You would not believe some of the reasons that we've heard from customers as to why we should replace their knives. :rolleyes:

If you are looking at warantees, you might try to broaden your perspective.

"Lifetime?" is a very deceptive word. Whose life? The life of the owner? the manufacturer? The owners decendants? The life of the product?

"Lifetime" warrantees in my opinion, either have small print, giving them the "out" (receipt from original owner, etc.) or will in the future change, or is something that I would question.

Honest manufacturers making products that they care about will try to offer the best warrantee they can, without getting screwed by the unfair customer. Unfortunately, it the unfair customer that always messes it up for the fair customer.

This doesn't mean the unfair customer is evil, they are often ignorant.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

------------------------------------------

The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
 
J Rummerfield said:
Strider's warranty is unconditional.
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Except for the conditions.

["Spine Whack"]

This damages a knife.
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Every use damages a knife, the magnitude is what is important. Spine whacks are easily handled by many knives, buy better ones.

The lock should keep the knife open during use of the cutting edge (the sharp part)
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This restriction is hardly valid for "tactical" folders, or even serious utility use knives.

-Cliff
 
Man, I DO NOT want to jump into this doo-doo pit, but I will.

I don't own a Spyderco (yet), but after reading one of Cliff's test on the lock of one that may change. The blade broke before the lock failed. OK, so Cliff broke a blade. Big woo there. For me, I'd rather the blade break than the lock fail and have the thing close on my delicate fingers. I've got enough scars thankyouverymuch.

Was it abusive? YES! Did it tell me something about Sal Glessers products? YES again. I may not break the blade, but I would buy this knife with every confidence that it wouldn't close up on me. Would my Sebbie fare the same? I really don't know. All I know is that Cliff and his Silverback brother/friends couldn't break the lock on this knife and that tells me a lot.

Busse does encourage duplication of his tests (with the exception of the knife in a vise and a cheater pipe, or the oxy acty torch), but anything you can do with hand strength alone seems to be fair game. Seems like it took Cliff 2 years to finally break a Basic. That's like about 3 1/2 lifetimes for me.

Yes, you pay for warranties one way or another. It's just that some you never have to use.

Cliff .... Keep up the good work. (Can't wait till you get the MOAB)

Sal ... You have some business coming your way, compliments of Cliff's abusive nature.

Rob
 
J Rummerfield said:
Also if you want to do an actual scientific test you would need to test batches of knives, not just one or two.
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Where do you guys learn this stuff? Lets assume a probe brought back one sample of rock from mars, do you really think nothing could be learned from it because it is only one sample. No scientific research could be done on it? Lots of research is done on one sample (consider fossils for example, you find one it spawns a whole host of research).

For those curious, larger samples allow you to bound predictions, so instead of saying XXX knife bent to 25 degrees, you can say the mean sample bend was 22-27 degrees with a 95% CI. The bigger the sample the more information you can learn of course. I have tested multiple knives on many occasions, and will readily provide CI if makers/manufacturers want to provide large samples.

-Cliff
 
wetdog1911 said:
I don't own a Spyderco (yet)
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Rob,

Hurry! Get an MBC/Very Heavy Use-rated knife (such as a Lil Temperance, ATR, Paramilitary, Manix, Yojimbo, Gunting, or Chinook II), a save-and-serve sheepsfoot (such as the D'Allara, 79mm Rescue, 93mm Rescue, or one of the Assists), a Little Big Knife (such as Salsa or the Dodo), and a new or venerable pure slicer (Delica, Endura, Scorpius, okay, all Spydercos). They don't have the warranty of your SRKW or Busse fixed blades, but they don't need them.

Go!
 
Cliff is saying is "1" a meaningful sample size to test strength and reliability. I wonder what the confidence interval is with 1 as a sample size.

Assuming the population of 2000 of a kind of knife,
Confidence level of 95%
confidence interval as +- 10%

You'd need a sample size of 92.

To use a sample size of 1, your need nearly 100% +- Interval.
 
You're making assumptions about the variation between different knives of the same model, Dave. With a mass-produced product like a factory knife, how many do you have to measure before you know how long it is? How many do you have to weigh before you know how much it weighs? How many do you have to break before you know how strong it is? :cool:
 
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