Why are TOPS knives so freaking expensive?

[NGK-Webmaster]

And what knife would you prefer?

I like Blackjack knives, Chris Reeve, Becker, Tops.....All of them have good points to me.

 

[Brian Jones]

Trace's old post said it best: TOPS are all handmade -- the guys are so skilled that they do the finish work, bevels, and sharpening freehand -- not on a machine. They are not a mass manufacturer -- it is a shop, and the process they use is exactly what most custom makers use.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A couple of years ago I read a post by Trace Rinaldi where he said TOPS knives were mostly hand made. .

So are Ranger Knives, and they are by the one guy, and significantly cheaper than TOPS. This of course should not make them cost more, lots of very high end custom makers use CNC machines, jigs and so on, they are not overpriced because they do so.

-Cliff

 

[nozh2002]

I consider TOPS knives as pieces of art! Really look at this from this point - this is art creation in Military style! They did not choose current "supersteel" everybody talking about but 1095 cryo (is it right?), I doubt that they did this just to lower expenses, this is good steel for this application - it is proven to be good for military use from WWII.

And they all very well made, with great attention to details (chech that wight or red spacer betweet tang and Micarta) - you can not simple compare it with other manufacturers who use same steel.

I made some pictures of TOPS knives on BAKCA-2004

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[DazedandConfzed]

I like Blackjack knives, Chris Reeve, Becker, Tops.....All of them have good points to me.

Isn't Becker knives just a higher end of Camillus knives? I think they are and it seems as if Camillus is not known for the best of craftsmanship, course a knife is a knife to me. For what I use them for, at least most of the time, a $30 knife is as good as a $200 knife, but that is just me. I am just trying to figure out why some cost so much more than others. I mean I used to work at a machine shop when I was a teenager and honestly from looking at the basic designs of a knife they don't seem like anything extraordinary to make by hand, despite what materials are used. I mean I may be wrong here but some of these knives, fixed blades anyways, seem pretty simple to me. Obviously, anything handmade is worth more, at least to me, and will cost more but some of these expensive ass knives are production knives made on CNC machines, as some others have already mentioned. I can justify the price difference on a real handmade knife because I can appreciate the amount of time and effort it makes to create such a piece but production knives? Come on!

 

[Quiet Storm]

Isn't Becker knives just a higher end of Camillus knives?

Becker is their outdoor knife line. If anything, they're Camillus' slightly lower end knives.

I think they are and it seems as if Camillus is not known for the best of craftsmanship, course a knife is a knife to me.

Where did you get this from?

 

[DazedandConfzed]

Becker is their outdoor knife line. If anything, they're Camillus' slightly lower end knives.



Where did you get this from?

Um, from reading reviews on this site man. I have never owned a Camillus so I cannot comment for myself but their seemed to be an influx of negative replies towards this company when I did a search on here and on the net so...but then again like I said, "I don't own one," which is why I am asking about various different knives lately. I am in the market.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...from looking at the basic designs of a knife they don't seem like anything extraordinary to make by hand

This isn't where the cost comes from. The influence of materials and design is significant, but for many pieces, the majority of the price markup is simply created by demand, or to place the piece in a particular niche where it will create the most profit. As noted you can find single custom makers who are significantly cheaper than TOPS, working with a more complicated heat treat in a steel which is more difficult to machine, so you can't argue cost from materials or manufacturing.

-Cliff

 

[DazedandConfzed]

This isn't where the cost comes from. The influence of materials and design is significant, but for many pieces, the majority of the price markup is simply created by demand, or to place the piece in a particular niche where it will create the most profit. As noted you can find single custom makers who are significantly cheaper than TOPS, working with a more complicated heat treat in a steel which is more difficult to machine, so you can't argue cost from materials or manufacturing.

-Cliff

You know you are right. I neer looked at it from that perspective. Thanks for the thoughtful insight.

 

[allenC]

IMHO, they're overpriced just like Strider knives.

When I see someone with one I can't help but think "either this guy is a real knife nut and just wanted to see if the knife lived up to the hype--or this guy is a 100% mall-ninja-wannabe".


Allen.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Subject to being told I'm full of it, I seem to recall that 1095 was developed for farm plowing equipment - harrows and the like. In that service, it would be expected to encounter roots and rocks with some force. This may make it a good choice for "chopper" knives.

As for me, I have had good luck picking up a couple of TOPS knives from forum members -- used but not abused. Since I bought them to use, that allowed a significant savings. They seem to work.

The list prices are somewhat off-putting.

 

[Brian Jones]

working with a more complicated heat treat in a steel which is more difficult to machine, so you can't argue cost from materials or manufacturing.

-Cliff

So, Cliff, exactly what is TOPS heat-treat process? Have you ever been to the shop?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...TOPS heat-treat process?

I would assume it is similar to :

-[font=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-Serif] soak between 1450-1500F
- quench in agitated air / water / oil (possibly heated)
- temper above 325 F to achive desired uniform hardness

When I mentioned more complicated heat treatment process I was comparing them to the differential tempering you can find in higher alloy steels which also includes full step down and step up deep cryo and multiple tempers, you can find this in Swamp Rat blades which are actually cheaper than TOPS.

As the alloy content gets higher in steels you have to take more steps to deal with the secondary carbide formers and retained austenite, plus with some steels, especially the HSS, you can burn them in the soak really fast so they are not as forgiving as the simpler ones.
[/font]
Now if you compare the steels, and the heat treatment, then take a look at the quality control measures Swamp Rat uses for micro-crack detection, then the small sample destructive testing, plus the blade performance specifications - do you really think you can argue for TOP's being a higher priced blade.

It isn't just Swamp Rat either, there are lots of custom makers cheaper, such as mentioned in the above who as far as I know have not contracted Davros to build them the ultimate line of knife making robots, they still do a lot of work by hand. Hell, HI's offers single ownership blades which are hand forged which are cheaper than TOP's knives.

This may make it a good choice for "chopper" knives.

It is decent but overkill in the carbon percentage, you don't need all of that for a heavy chopper, it is really nice in small blades ran full hard though.

-Cliff

 

[Walking Man]

I am one of those people that think that TOPs knives are a fair value for the money.

 

[averageguy]

"lots of very high end custom makers use CNC machines"

Knives need to be profiled and ground by hand for me to consider them custom.

Otherwise production knives like TOPS are just as "custom" as from some "custom" makers.

 

[Kohai999]

and Mr. Stump, Mike Fuller is a bud of mine.

He has been there, and done that, and he works his butt off to make the best quality product that he can.

He works with custom makers to help them realize mass production of their designs, and he has excellent customer service, which is something lacking from some of your pet knife mfg's. He makes more than 3 models available at any given time.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Knives need to be profiled and ground by hand for me to consider them custom.

The accepted defination now is that one guy made it. This is a loose defination though as it can be heat treated by someone else, and its still considered custom.I would not consider a knife custom unless it was made how I wanted it. However it is made is irrelevant. In none of these cases does custom imply quality superior to high end production.

-Cliff

 

[Brian Jones]

I would assume it is similar to :


-Cliff

Tsk, tesk, Cliff. You drew a conclusion on nothing but an assumption. Isn't that bad science? Are all your reviews based just on assumptions? If you are going to make a definitive statement in the future, please tell us if you're just guessing next time. It makes me wonder how many of the conclusions in your reviews have really been tested, or are just wild guesses on your part...

 

[allenC]

Cliff is right.

If you make 1000 knives that are to the exact same specifications, then they are not custom-make, even if they are hand crafted.

And hand crafted does not always equal high quality.
If any forum member wants to pay ME a couple hundred dollars, I'll make them a hand crafted knife--but don't expect much.

Allen.

 

[Brian Jones]

Handmade does not mean custom. I agree. Custom is when a maker designs it to an individual's specs (in my opinion).

Handmade does mean quality and attention to detail, if you have skiiled bladesmiths. TOPS knives reflect both of those bigtime, because their bladesmiths are that skilled. If you guys want to generalize about it, that's fine. But TOPS attention to detail and quality is easily on par with any other handmade or custom shops, and far better than many.