Why are TOPS knives so freaking expensive?

[Kohai999]

So, you're admitting you have a bias?




And you're implying Cliff has one in the very same post? How odd.

Ummmm,

Why yes, Officer Guardsman, I do have a bias. I met Mike from TOPS about 6 or 7 years ago and was impressed by him as a person, by his passion and his credentials, and his designs. I bought a knife, put it through the paces(had not thought about concrete blocks or cutting down telephone poles at that time), and went back and told Mike about what I thought. We have become friends over the years. There is my bias, guilty as charged.

Cliff does have a bias, and if you know anything about his nearly 10,000 posts you would see that, Officer Newbie. Cliff's last name is Stamp, except if you are one of us, then it is Stump. We call those that show support for him Stumpies. He does not need to be encouraged to do what he does, but if you want to support him, go ahead.

What part of Kalifornia do you enforce law in?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff does have a bias...

Consider :

1) in the reviews I have never refused to do work with a knife to showcase its strengths or weaknesses

2) I have sent around knives I reviewed to others including those that have been very critical of them

3) The reviews contain lots of positive and negative performance where all blades are outperformed and outperform others, and even my "favorites" are on occasion heavily damaged and even broken

4) I specifically ask makers and manufacturers what work they want done to showcase their knives

5) The knives are always compared to others, both cheaper and more expensive to benchmark performance

As always, if you actually have a suggestion on what could be done to improve the reviews then state it.

-Cliff

 

[WileECoyote]

I've avoided getting involved in this ongoing saga, but I have to say that I like and appreciate Cliff's work.

It just helps me in my purchasing decisions to know that someone is out there beating the crap out of a product, testing the extremes, just so I have something else to add into the info mix besides manufacturer promo copy and glowing magazine reviews.

It's like what Nader used to do, abusing cars by driving them into walls. Cliff's work is not the gospel. He's a human with his own priorities like all of us. Manufacturers should not feel pressured into participating in his tests. But those who doth protesteth too much weaken their own credibility.

It's all just additional data to throw into our knowledge base, why freak?

FWIW

 

[Kohai999]

Time in, Time out.

When your methods are reproached with sound science in specific areas, you do not answer.

When asked to provide photographs/video of failures, you do not provide said evidence.

When makers with combined experience of 100 years or more point out things that are nonsensical/unsupported by current science, you point to 1 maker that supports your ideas.

You have said, in print, that when you order a custom knife, you want it done YOUR way, case closed.

You tout Busse so much, that people wonder if you are on Jerry's payroll.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[King Grinch]

I have heard that TOPS are handmade. Is this true?

 

[Bullwhip]

Please elaborate, and be specific. If I can do anything to improve your experience with TOPS, and help Mike tune up his CS department, please let me know.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

With all due respect, no, I will not elaborate or be specific in this regard. Not again. When my negative encounter with TOPS took place I posted on this board, in very specific detail, about it in a thread similar to this one. What resulted was some other Fuller apologist trying to discredit my legitimate complaint. And even passing subtle threats on to me from Mr. Fuller himself who never once contacted me personally to rectify matters. When the board went through a server transition most of that thread was lost and I don't feel the need to revisit those details publicly again.

My comments on their knives are positive because I honestly think they sell quality products. But the scorn I received from the Fullers has left a bitter taste in mouth.

 

[DazedandConfzed]

With all due respect, no, I will not elaborate or be specific in this regard. Not again. When my negative encounter with TOPS took place I posted on this board, in very specific detail, about it in a thread similar to this one. What resulted was some other Fuller apologist trying to discredit my legitimate complaint. And even passing subtle threats on to me from Mr. Fuller himself who never once contacted me personally to rectify matters. When the board went through a server transition most of that thread was lost and I don't feel the need to revisit those details publicly again.

My comments on their knives are positive because I honestly think they sell quality products. But the scorn I received from the Fullers has left a bitter taste in mouth.

Simply put, if I were you, because of what happened then I would never buy a TOPS knife again. A company that scorns their customers and one that doesn't stand behind their product when they are supposed tobe guaranteed for life, does not deserve loyal customers IMO. I do not know your situation but from the sounds of it I wouldn't want to buy a TOPS knife.

 

[Brian Jones]

Bullwhip,

You are the only one I have ever heard of who had this kind of problem...there's no evidence of any threats in any thread, and if the thread was lost, why bring it up again? If you don't want to revisit the details, why, in every thread regarding TOPS, do you then rush in to mention this alleged "experience"? Mike Fuller has no need to pass along threats to you or anyone, nor is that his style. You post these accusations yet refuse to go into detail. Well, if you are going to impunge someone's character in public like this, you'd better be willing and ready to back it up with specifics if you want to have even one iota of credibility.

Because you are the only one who supposedly had a problem with "being treated rudely" (and knowing them well, I doubt they treated you this way), I ask you this: Are you sure the problem wasn't you?

Frankly, I find your story quite difficult to believe.

 

[Bullwhip]

Bullwhip,

You are the only one I have ever heard of who had this kind of problem...there's no evidence of any threats in any thread, and if the thread was lost, why bring it up again? If you don't want to revisit the details, why, in every thread regarding TOPS, do you then rush in to mention this alleged "experience"?

"Alleged" experience? Nice. Obviously I bring it up because I'm still a tad miffed by the situation. You're right though, I should put up or shut up. I give you my word that following this post I will not post my thoughts regarding TOPS publicly again.

Mike Fuller has no need to pass along threats to you or anyone, nor is that his style. You post these accusations yet refuse to go into detail. Well, if you are going to impunge someone's character in public like this, you'd better be willing and ready to back it up with specifics if you want to have even one iota of credibility.

Like I said, my side of the story has been posted by me before and I'm sure there are folks present who remember reading my account of those events. You can either choose to take me for my word or not. There is nothing more I can say or do.

Because you are the only one who supposedly had a problem with "being treated rudely" (and knowing them well, I doubt they treated you this way), I ask you this: Are you sure the problem wasn't you?

Because you are Mike Fuller's friend and not mine your mind is made up. I could write a full report detailing the exact timeline of events and it still would not be good enough for you. It is my word against his and all I have is my own honor to stand by. Take it or leave it. Was the problem me? I honestly don't think so. I mustered as much humility and politeness as I am cabable. Towards the end of the debacle, however, I may have said some things out of anger and frustration that I regret. But I would like to see how well you respond after weeks / months of the unprofessional behavior I was privy to.

Frankly, I find your story quite difficult to believe.

Doesn't matter to me. Whether you believe it or not doesn't make it any less real or unpleasant. I want absolutely nothing to do with TOPS knives but it is not fair to them how I am conducting my complaints. I will drop it and never bring it up again. My apologies.

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .
Why are TOPS priced where they are? Because they sell at that price very well.
. . .

Reality: not nearly so exciting (or demeaning to the participants) as a flame war.

 

[Brian Jones]

Thomas,

First, not a flame war. If you want excitement and flames, practice with your bowdrill...

Anyhoo...

Bullwhip,

You have great posting history here, and speaking as a fellow Indy fan, your website rocks. Something obviously went wrong in the comms chain between you and TOPS, and created a misunderstanding.

Sometimes we all have bad days, and maybe both you and whomever you spoke to at TOPS both had bad days, and it maybe got out of hand. I know you're fan of Andy Prisco, and Andy is good friends with Mike, too. He'd say the same great things about Mike Fuller as I have said. He's a man of honor. Would you permit me to contact Mike, find out what happened, and get back to you privately?

If words were exchanged, based on seeing your awesome behavior here, and knowing the Fullers' good character very well, I can only believe there was a misunderstanding. I can't see how two very obviously stable and considerate parties could have a such a difference otherwise.

Would you also be willing to accept that possibility, and everyone can give everyone else the benefit of the doubt for the meantime until I look into it?

Best,

~Brian.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I don't see a problem with TOPS. Some of the complaints on this thread are kind of wierd. I own both Busse (Steelheart-E and Public Defender ) and TOPS (Anaconda and Steet Scalpel) knives, spending almost twice on Busse than I did on TOPS, and I don't take sides with the various "my knife is better than your knife" groups when discussing quality knives. Whe I bought them both in 2002, my Anaconda cost $265.00 and my Steelheart E, a smaller knife, was $300.00. I don't think that looks like TOPS costs more than Busse. The Anaconda is closer in size to the Battle Mistress sold at the time which was $350.00. I don't think any of these knives are overpriced or else I would not have purchased them, and if I thought they were junk when I got them I would have sold them. When I have more money, I'll probably buy more knives from both Busse and TOPS as well as other makers. I buy knives I like, and won't see any problem carrying both a Busse Force One and a TOPS Armageddon at the same time.

I have no problem with 1095 and I've not abused these knives to the point where INFI would show an advantage. I'm not doubting INFI, it is just that I've not abused my knives. I'm also not saying I won't in the future though. It is also not true that all TOPS knives are made from 1095. The DART is made from S30V, for example.

It is also pretty stupid to portray all TOPS owners as "mall ninjas." Originally the term was used for overzealous security guards, now on this forum it seems like an ill-defined insult to hurl at anyone who owns knives one doesn't like. The other person (on another thread) I've seen using this term was totally clueless on on the legal, physical, and mental sides self-defense and applied it to people like myself who questioned his hollywood-inspired socialist views. This fool did not seem to realize that in many parts of the country CCW is common.

TOPS makes knives designed by Ron Hood, Trace Rinaldi, Jerry VanCook, Chris Janowsky, Tom brown, and Jeff Randall, all people who IMO have more credibility that TOPS critics and "mall ninja hunters." I learned about TOPS from the Hoodlums forum and finally decided to buy an Anaconda after reading the forum for almost three years. There have been many satisfied TOPS customers on that forum.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Maybe this is simple-minded, but . . .

With few exceptions, the market determines price. If an item looks good to you but you feel it is priced too high AND the item is selling at that price, you are simply unwilling to pay the market price. That is not a black mark against the seller. The price is not "too high" (except to you). It just is what it is because buyers are willing to pay the price (for whatever reason). If they wouldn't pay the price, it would fall OR the item would disappear from the marketplace.

My solution with TOPS was to pick up gently used models. I'm happy. The previous owners got their price.

(What I find interesting is that some makers sell currently-available models below the price on the secondary market for the same model NIB. Is that "too low"?)

 

[3Guardsmen]

Ummmm,

Why yes, Officer Guardsman, I do have a bias. I met Mike from TOPS about 6 or 7 years ago and was impressed by him as a person, by his passion and his credentials, and his designs. I bought a knife, put it through the paces(had not thought about concrete blocks or cutting down telephone poles at that time), and went back and told Mike about what I thought. We have become friends over the years. There is my bias, guilty as charged.

Thanks for being honest enough to admit you have a bias. Nothing wrong with that. I like TOPS knives as well. However, I also happen to enjoy Cliff's reviews.

Cliff does have a bias, and if you know anything about his nearly 10,000 posts you would see that, Officer Newbie.

Thanks for the new handle, maybe I should change my screen-name, eh?

Cliff's last name is Stamp, except if you are one of us, then it is Stump. We call those that show support for him Stumpies.?

I was not aware of that. Thanks for explaining it to me.

What part of Kalifornia do you enforce law in?

The fabulous Bay Area.

Cheers,
3Guardsmen

 

[Kohai999]

This is what I call a classic BladeForums discussion thread.

I called Mike today, and made him aware of this post, I just didn't want him getting caught unawares.

I don't work for Mike Fuller or TOPS, we are on very friendly terms, which means that I would give him the shirt off my back in a snowstorm, but I would not GIVE him my last dollar, I would loan it to him. Does that make any sense?

He has always been straight up with me, and receptive to my ideas, he has a brusque manner, but that works with me, he is not a glad hander.

Bullwhip, I would not be at all a TOPS apologist, I simply have the ability to work with you in this situation, take the heat off dealing with them directly. If you want to PM me offline, please do so. You can e-mail me at steven@zanheadgear.com. I used to work at the Monroe Gun Show with my business, High Hat Knives, from 1993 until 1995. Sometimes, due to personalities or communication failures, it is easier to deal with someone other than the maker directly, this is the case with custom makers, and it can be the case with factories as well. For an example, I work with Jerry Busse much better than anyone else @ Busse Knives, there are those on BF that would say that I am crazy, but that would have been my experience.

ThreeGuardsman, I have to admit, I am a bit ashamed of my sarcasm towards you, it was perhaps, unwarranted. Please accept my apology, and nice to meet you via cyberspace.

Cliff does what he does. It is amusing as hell, and sometimes is almost valid, and it pisses a lot of us off, because newbies tend to look at the pseudo scientific methodology Cliff uses, and take it as gospel, and that hurts some makers/factories sales, that would not have been otherwise hurt.

I have a very hard time explaining myself about this, but believe me, if you research ALL of Cliff's postings, which most newer knife buyers(I AM NOT assuming that you are in that category, FWIW) do not use the "search" feature and take Cliff's latest diatribes at one of the commandments. Cliff is biased, he has a clear preference for carbon steel, and lately he has been experimenting with knives that are 1/16" thick, and other "odd" things like that. He makes statements and runs like hell when challenged by people like Ed Fowler, or he changes the subject. It is unfair, it is mean, and SOOO unnecessary.

The bottom line to the original question asked of "Why do TOPS knives cost so much money" is that they are a good knife, made by people who are paid very fairly, with decent benefits, of very good materials. They are well marketed, have an excellent (IN MY EXPERIENCE) customer service department, and this is what they decided to charge for them. If they are not doing a good job of making a good product, then they will not exist for very long in this highly competetive marketplace. If that were to happen, I for one would be sad.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[3Guardsmen]

Thank you for the apology, but it is not necessary. I applaud anyone who speaks their mind and stands up for what they believe in. That's one of the reasons I like Cliff's reviews, even if I don't always agree with him. As far as TOPS knives go, I like them too, regardless of the price. Nice to meet you as well.

Cheers,
3Guardsmen

 

[Cliff Stamp]

When your methods are reproached with sound science in specific areas, you do not answer.

He makes statements and runs like hell when challenged by people like Ed Fowler, or he changes the subject.

The threads that discuss what I do tend to run for 10+ pages so it is hardly the case that I refuse to deal with what is said. It may be that I miss them on occasion because I have to sort through pages of personal insults which I skip, so if in the middle of this ranting someone asks a question it is likely it gets ignored. However if you act in an inbiased manner, just discussing method or facts then I will deal with what is said, unlike many of those providing counter arguements which do nothing but get personal when challenged.

When asked to provide photographs/video of failures, you do not provide said evidence.

As noted I have made video's in the past on request, and if any maker asked me to do so in the future I would not have a problem with it. There are pictures in the reviews. Generally they show the knife NIB and afer any mods or damage. I don't take pictures of everything as it would be meaningless. The reviews are intended to mainly convey information and this isn't enhanced by pictures in many cases.

If I say one knife cut potatoes better than another, noting the forces in both cases, hosting up a picture of both doesn't add anything. There are lots of places to look at pictures of the knives, I am interested in using them, not looking at them, and the reviews are meant for similar minded people. There are some cases where a short vid clip would be of benefit which is why I have started polling Ebay.

When makers with combined experience of 100 years or more point out things that are nonsensical/unsupported by current science, you point to 1 maker that supports your ideas.

It is hardly one, I work and corrospond with many makers, and their experience combines to far more than 100 years, some of the HI's mkaers have almost that much experience individually, however I really don't care about a numbers game, you make an argument I will deal with that, I don't care who you are or who agrees with you, you deal with the statement, not who made it.

You have said, in print, that when you order a custom knife, you want it done YOUR way, case closed.

Yeah, that is why I would get a custom, because it can be customized to my needs. If you are truely looking for the ultimate high performance knife it can't be some stock item from a maker. A knife has to match the skill level, physical ability of the user and the materials they cut. Even on very specific tasks like wood cutting, the type of tree and even when it is cut makes a difference. Only the user can tell the maker this information, and it will be different for each person.

You tout Busse so much, that people wonder if you are on Jerry's payroll.

As noted, point out where the performance I have described by Busse is exceeded by anothers knives, statements which are supported by the manufacturer and guess what, I will very likely have a new benchmark for performance in that area. Or take a review and show how it is baised towards Busse and actually support your claims. Show where I promote Busse by ignoring their weakpoints.

If you actually look at what I write and see how often it mentions Busse it is a small percentage of the posts and reviews. There are lots of knives I mention more often such as the Deerhunter from A.G. Russell, or a Lee Valley kitchen knife which is mentioned in a large fraction of the reviews. Even the reviews which are overall postive towards Busse contain lots of work illustrating less than dominating performance.

In fact I mention Busse more often defending this bias arguement than I actually bring up Busse on my own, which is kind of ironic.

Cliff is biased, he has a clear preference for carbon steel, and lately he has been experimenting with knives that are 1/16" thick, and other "odd" things like that.

I have stainless and carbon steel blades for EDC, from plain carbon, to high alloy CPM's, all steels have their uses. Yes I have 1/16" knives, one of my first reviews was of a similar blade, so it isn't "lately",I even use much thinner blades (Olfa), and much thicker bladed khukuris. I have preferences, but when I review a knife it isn't simply as to how I would want it to work, but the qualities it has in general.

When I am talking about my personal preference in a review I state it as such. I often state opposing opinions and as noted do pass around reviews and link to manufactuer websites, and discussion threads so people can see other opinions just not mine. Because it isn't my goal to promote any brand of knives, just provide one source of information.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .

Cliff is biased, he has a clear preference for carbon steel, and lately he has been experimenting with knives that are 1/16" thick, and other "odd" things like that.
. . .
STeven Garsson

Mr. Garsson, I am unsure about what your mean to convey. Others that are accorded considerable respect in the knife-making world also have a clear preference for carbon steel -- really too numerous to mention but including Mr. Fisk, Mr. Loveless, Mr. Randall, Mr. Scagel, Mr. Morseth, and Mr. Rhuana. There is also this company which, if one looks at their line of knives, shows a clear preference for carbon steel. That would be TOPS.

As for thinner blades, they have their areas where they shine. The folks in Scandanavia have been using knives - using them - for some years and find our fascination with 1/4" thick blades "odd." They regard 1/8" as massive.

And thank God for the "odd." Wouldn't the world be boring if all the knives were the same? No "odd" knives "bent forward" or "oddly" beveled on one side? No "odd" steels or handle materials? Sounds pretty boring. Good grief -- no "butterfly" knives or karambits!!!

 

[Bullwhip]

Mr. Jones and Kohai999,

Thank you for your offers to mediate. I appreciate your willingness to help but I must decline. Brian called me on the carpet about how I was conducting myself and I must agree. I've let my anger and bitter attitude dictate my actions in these threads about TOPS and the Fullers for a couple years now. I'm a bit ashamed of my personal vendetta so it's time to let it go. I'm publicly expunging myself from all further conversations regarding this company.

Once again, thank you and I hope to have further conversations with you two in the future.

 

[Kohai999]

"Mr. Garsson, I am unsure about what your mean to convey. Others that are accorded considerable respect in the knife-making world also have a clear preference for carbon steel -- really too numerous to mention but including Mr. Fisk, Mr. Loveless(sorry but I think you are really wrong on that one, when last quoted, Big Bob was grooving on BG42), Mr. Randall, Mr. Scagel, Mr. Morseth, and Mr. Rhuana. There is also this company which, if one looks at their line of knives, shows a clear preference for carbon steel. That would be TOPS. "

I am saying that Cliff is not as unbiased as many would have him think. He is less unbiased than say, MSGT Kim Breed, a professional (paid to do it) knife reviewer for Blade. That is based on my readings of both reviewers' work.


"As for thinner blades, they have their areas where they shine. The folks in Scandanavia have been using knives - using them - for some years and find our fascination with 1/4" thick blades "odd." They regard 1/8" as massive."

Most of the fixed blade knives that we use in this country are well in excess of 1/16". We are not in Scandnavia, nor Germany, nor Japan. We have American patterns, made by American artisans, and that IS the point. To say X makers knife does not cut well compared to this here razor blade, is to compare Apples to Crabapples. They look the same, but they are not.

"And thank God for the "odd." Wouldn't the world be boring if all the knives were the same? No "odd" knives "bent forward" or "oddly" beveled on one side? No "odd" steels or handle materials? Sounds pretty boring. Good grief -- no "butterfly" knives or karambits!!!"

I have pointed out Cliff's undue influence on newbies, people simply not educated enough to make an informed opinion on their own. A lot of people come here to get educated, and Cliff's reviews and opinions serve to form a foundation of that education. Maybe I am giving him too much credit, but I highly doubt it.

I used to work for a company called GT knives, they made a really cool and different folder. I am soooo glad that Cliff was not doing his thing then, because I doubt that he would have had complementary things to write. I would have taken that personally. Differences are great, pointing them out is educational, but expecting a Mack Truck to do the work of a Ford 1 Ton is not reasonable. Pointing out the shortcomings of one VS the other is unfair.
I have seen Stump get into arguments via this Forum with the most patient and reasonable Members around, and pull the Holy Martyr act when pinned down.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson