Why are TOPS knives so freaking expensive?

[rgc]

Some do seem a little on the high side, however, I have yet to examine one to see for my self. That said, I look forward to blade as I really want to get my hands on the Shadow Tracker with the Simonich style handles. It has 154 cm blade and a design I really like. To top it off, I don't think the price on this one is out of reason.

rgc

 

[Josh Muller]

Differences are great, pointing them out is educational, but expecting a Mack Truck to do the work of a Ford 1 Ton is not reasonable.

its nice to know what happens when you try it though. there may come a point when all you have is a mack truck, and you absolutely require it to do the work of a ford 1 ton.

does it make the mack truck any less of a semi because it cant do offroad jumps? not in anyway shape or form. thats not why i would want that information. id want the information to know how it reacts in an offroad situation, not how it reacts in a semi trucking situation. i can extract certain things from the experiment, such as how the semi trucks shocks will react to heavyily damaged road by how it reacts to the feilds uneveness. within its feild, it may be the best semi truck out there, but if i think at some point that i may have to swerve my mack truck semi into a rocky feild, id like to know whats going to happen.

expecting it to be able to go offroad would be unreasonable. i'd probably change my opinion once i saw what happened after taking it offroad. however, expecting it to not blow up within 10 seconds of taking it offroad is much, much less unreasonable. it'll fail quickly, but immediate failure would be dangerous considering the possibility of having to swerve it offroad.


what cliff does with knives that are not meant for the task at hand is interesting, because he is using them for tasks they are not meant to perform well at. that is the point of using them for that task. to see how they perform outside of their intended invironment.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Got me on Mr. Loveless. At the price the market assigns to his work, they have to be proof against corrosion. I am showing my age. The one I bought years ago was decidedly neither stainless nor priced in the current neighborhood. Its patina speaks of happy times.

I know you assign little or no value to Mr. Stamp's conclusions. You call him names. But observing that Mr. Stamp prefers carbon steel does nothing to prove your case that his opinions should be disregarded or to justify your apparent dislike. Many prefer carbon steel, including TOPS.

Ah yes, "Blade" knife reviews. All the children are above average.

Mr. Stamp aside, I fail to see your problem with comparing two different types of tools performing the same task. It seems neither unfair nor illogical to observe, for example, that a thinner knife is often a better slicer than a thick knife and the thick knife is a better chopper and pryer than the thinner knife. It may be unnecessary information for the experienced user, but, as you observed so accurately, not all who come here are experienced. If Stamp, for example, FAILED to point out that the superior slicer was thinner, THAT would be unfair and misleading. One might be looking for the very minimum knife to perform a given task (Using "Mora" knives for wilderness survival is all the rage with some. I prefer something thicker, but some pretty heavyweight survival experts swear by "Moras."). Comparison of different knifes performing the same task could produce useful information.

 

[allenC]

I find Cliff's reviews to be very interesting reading, even though I don't always agree with his opinions.
The Bladeforums is a better place with Cliff than without him.

The bottom line is this:
I don't think he gets paid to do his tests and reviews and so he does them out of his own love or fascination of knives.

If you can do better reviews than let's see them.

Allen.

 

[Kohai999]

Got me on Mr. Loveless. Its patina speaks of happy times.

I know you assign little or no value to Mr. Stamp's conclusions. You call him names. But observing that Mr. Stamp prefers carbon steel does nothing to prove your case that his opinions should be disregarded or to justify your apparent dislike. Many prefer carbon steel, including TOPS.

Ah yes, "Blade" knife reviews. All the children are above average.

Mr. Stamp aside, I fail to see your problem with comparing two different types of tools performing the same task. It seems neither unfair nor illogical to observe, for example, that a thinner knife is often a better slicer than a thick knife and the thick knife is a better chopper and pryer than the thinner knife. It may be unnecessary information for the experienced user, but, as you observed so accurately, not all who come here are experienced. If Stamp, for example, FAILED to point out that the superior slicer was thinner, THAT would be unfair and misleading. .

Mr Linton,

I said that Cliff was biased towards carbon steels, that is all. Not that there was anything wrong with carbon steels. I like carbon steel, but it requires more care than stainless. That matters in the field, as rust has a way of dulling an edge. I am glad that you and your non-stainless Loveless have had happy times together.

I place value on what Cliff does, just not how or why he does it, it doesn't make sense to me, or myriad other folks on the forums, if anyone wants to see what I am talking about, go the Shop Talk in the Makers' Forums and scroll down to the Fallkniven thread. It illustrates my point much better than wasting any more breath on the subject.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Allen242]

Bullwhip, I was the "apologist" that replied to your earlier post. As I said before, Mike Fuller never sent you any threats, that was my dumb attempt at humor. I said then, and I'll say it again, I am sorry for that remark, Mike did not find it amusing either. All I will add is there are two sides to every issue, nuff said.

As for the price of TOPS Knives, the first thing I learned in Marketing 101 was; the market dictates the price, the second thing I learned was; advertising sells. Considering the growth of demand for TOPS Knives I'd say Mr. Fuller learned that also. Those like TOPS who sell to dealers must also factor in the dealers mark up, and not undercut them with direct sales. Other makers who only sell direct do not have that issue when pricing. Also some makers choose to limit their production and have long waiting lists, others increase production and make money on the margins. Each style of marketing has it's advantages and disadvantages, but in the end the market rules.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Most of the fixed blade knives that we use in this country are well in excess of 1/16". We are not in Scandnavia, nor Germany, nor Japan. We have American patterns, made by American artisans, and that IS the point.

I am not in America, nor are the majority of people in the world. On yet another ironic note, the thinnest and highest performing blade I own was made by an american maker, who has been making such blades for 25 years.

In fact all my top performing knives of that type are by american makers. There are a wealth of american makers who craft knives simply with a focus on pure cutting ability and pretty much ignore durability, Tom Krein for example makes hollow ground D2 blades out of 0.090" stock.

You would have a point if I for example compared one of Alvin's knives to a Top's knife and said something like :

"Alvin's paring knife vastly outcut the Tops Scalpel on cardboard, ropes and woods. Not only did Alvin's blade require far less force to make the cuts, but it stayed sharp by an even greater margin. The TOPS knife is vastly inferior and should be avoided."

This would show a clear bias because I am letting a particular perspective drive the conclusions reached in the reviews. Now here is what they actually tend to look like :

"Alvin's paring knife vastly outcut the Tops Scalpel on cardboard, ropes and woods. Not only did Alvin's blade require far less force to make the cuts, but it stayed sharp by an even greater margin. The TOPS knife is vastly inferior for that type of work and Alvin's design would be preferred for that."

The differences is only slight, I can see how you could readily confuse the two commentaries. It would also be quickly followed by something similar to :

"Of course the thicker steel on the Scalpel, and the softer hardness makes it a better choice for work which require more strength and toughness. Alvin's design for example would suffer significant damage even if it hit a staple in a piece of cardboard and could be grossly damaged by even light bone cutting or digging in soil."

It is then left up to the reader to decide which knife is best for them based on what they need.

As an example of an actual review, of an actual TOPS knife :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/steel_eagle.html

While the ridges in the handle would obvious aid in retention, ergonomics was a critical standout area so it was quickly investigated. In short they were very abrasive and even a small tree could not be felled and limbed out without excess discomfort. In addition the index finger recess in the grip was also found to be to thin at the bottom and a further source of discomfort. In short a heavy glove was needed for any extended work.

In direct contrast, the retention of the grip is very high. Even when mineral oil or liquid soap was applied to the handle the Steel Eagle could still be used for heavy chopping, full power stabs and prying. In fact the lubricants actually made the grip more ergonomic by reducing the abrasive nature of the ridges. Many knives cannot handle such a compromised situation. For example repeating this work with a Busse Basic #7, full powered stabs were not possible as the retention was not high enough, and prying and heavy chopping were significantly effected.

Note here that both sides of the grip ridges are presented, the low ergonomics due to the abrasion, and the high grip security. Note as well that it is stated that it offers and this is a shocker *higher* performance than a Busse in regards to grip security.

and again :

The shallow sabre grind, and thick and obtuse edge on the TOPS Steel Eagel significant reduce its overall cutting ability. Comparing it to the Busse Basic #7, which has a higher flat grind and a more narrow edge profile, the Basic would readily out cut the Steel Eagle on all tasks, doing more work in less time with a reduced effort. For example in roughing some wood off a piece of scrap, the Steel Eagle took 180 +/- 10% more slices to clear the same wood.

However on some materials, the serrations on the Steel Eagle bring the cutting ability above plain edge blades like the Basic. Some materials are very difficult to slice or push cut through, and there the chisel tipped serrations on the Steel Eagle can come in handy. This isn't in reference to ropes and such, a plain edge with a coarse edge will cut them well, but light metals and plastic will ignore such plain edges but be ripped / torn by such serration patterns. Since these serrations are chisel tipped and inline with the main edge, they get sharpened right along with the main edge body.

Note here again how both postive and negative aspects are presented, and yet again it is stated how it has yet another advantage over a Busse blade.


Note at the bottom of the review where it provides a means for other users, with possibly different opinions to give them and thus allow other people to see them as well.


Note it also provides a link to TOP's website where the user can go for even more information.


Quite frankly I go pretty far to provide readers with a broad spectrum of information, not just my opinion.

To say X makers knife does not cut well compared to this here razor blade, is to compare Apples to Crabapples. They look the same, but they are not.

Yeah, and you learn by comparing. If you compared two knives that were exactly the same you can't learn anything, you can only get information if something is different, and thus by comparing the differences note how the performance changes.

-Cliff

 

[ishiyumisan]

First of all, I want to say this, whatever I say here, it' s just my opinion.
The both knife of Tops Tracker and Custom made are wonderful.

1 Steel 1095 High Carbon Alloy Rc58 of course will rust if you don't take care of it. It's the same for 01. There's no stainless that never rust. Anykind steel less or not if you use everyday never rust. This is the point.

2 The major difference between them is the saw blade. The tops tracker one is not offset saw.But it's not useless.

3 The difference between them is also the price. Custom made in eBay is up to 1,500$. The tops in eBay is around 220$. You can get almost seven tops tracker knives with the price of one custom made. I understand the custom made knife collectors pay that much, but some people just for camping pay as much as collector.

4 The design or the geometry of knives, it looks like when you see the new person at the first time. Without talking just with the first sight, you will see if you like it or not. That is about knife, it is all about the first impression. Try to believe it.

5 More often you do something and better you become. Skill is more you use it, you will get more skill, That means after you sharpen the knife so many times, better you become. Nobody is not born with the skills.

6 The tracker. Extremely strong survival knife I can't find weak point.

7 Combat: despite so many masters of blade which say" tracker knife is too heavy for combat, I agree with them just if you're small man not big. Guys (MASTER OF BLADE) tracker knife it's not tomahawk.

8 If the real survival situation occurs and somebody carries the knife, It's not just lucky. It is a MIRACLE.


plan no useless move, take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan

 

[Cliff Stamp]

There's no stainless that never rust.

H1 does unless you use a severe chemical oxidizing agent.

The design or the geometry of knives

Are the grinds similar, do they cut and chop the same?

-Cliff

 

[Ryan8]

Why yes, Officer Guardsman, I do have a bias. I met Mike from TOPS about 6 or 7 years ago and was impressed by him as a person, by his passion and his credentials, and his designs. [...] We have become lovers over the years.

Pretty much what I thought.

 

[ishiyumisan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishiyumisan
There's no stainless that never rust.


H1 does unless you use a severe chemical oxidizing agent.


Quote:
The design or the geometry of knives

Are the grinds similar, do they cut and chop the same?

-CliffQuote:

I don't think so ........ H1 Steel is virtually non-rusting steel that holds a phenomenal edge when compared to its dive knife competition. VIRTUALLY cliff....

For people like you, they gonna make laser knife and absolutely will not cut the same way cliff you just have to wait a few years time.

plan no useless move, take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan

 

[Cliff Stamp]

H1 Steel is virtually non-rusting steel that holds a phenomenal edge when compared to its dive knife competition. VIRTUALLY cliff....

In terms of normal enviromental conditions that you a person can survive in, it is immune to rust. It even resists extended soaks in acids and similar. There is a huge difference in behavior in steels in regards to ease of rusting, some like L6 can rust if you use it to slice up an apple. Before you finish the apple it will show a patina. 1095 would be long pitted and destroyed before H1 would even be cosmetically effected.

Yes, you can rust any material all you need is a strong oxidizer, but this is hardly a reason to ignore corrosion resistance, it would be like arguing that cutting ability doesn't matter because any knife can work if you apply enough force, or simply take enough time and many many cuts. If you really want extreme corrosion resistance, Ti and Stellite 6K are even above H1, to get them to oxidize you have to expose them to enviroments in which you would long be dead.

So do the TOP's and custom cut and chop the same?

-Cliff

 

[ishiyumisan]

1095 would be long pitted and destroyed before H1 would even be cosmetically effected.

The 10-series -- 1095 (and 1084, 1070, 1060, 1050, etc.)
Many of the 10-series steels for cutlery, though 1095 is the most
popular for knives. When you go in order from 1095-1050, you
generally go from more carbon to less, from better edge holding to
less edge holding, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll
see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of
the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well.......(you know)
It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. It rusts easily.
This is a simple steel, which contains only two alloying elements:
.95% carbon and .4% manganese. The kabars are usually 1095
with a black coating.......ecc





Yes, you can rust any material all you need is a strong oxidizer, but this is hardly a reason to ignore corrosion resistance, it would be like arguing that cutting ability doesn't matter because any knife can work if you apply enough force, or simply take enough time and many many cuts. If you really want extreme corrosion resistance, Ti and Stellite 6K are even above H1, to get them to oxidize you have to expose them to enviroments in which you would long be dead.


Thank you for the rhetoric but I am not going to survive on the moon or in Jupiter.........

So do the TOP's and custom cut and chop the same?

The problem is not to be or not to be like what you wrote down up here,
Do you really think the people cut or chop in the same way?

plan no useless move. take no step invain.

-Cliff[/QUOTE]

 

[Cliff Stamp]

but I am not going to survive on the moon or in Jupiter

Yes that is the point, for normal enviroments there are many choices for blade materials which are immune to rust, H1, Stellite 6K, Talonite, Beta-Ti etc. . So your origional argument of 1095 will rust but you have to look after all steels to prevent corrosion isn't valid.

There are now lots of choices for knives where you can even be abusive to the blades and they won't rust, like use them in salt water and don't even rinse them, let alone dry and oil them which would be necessary for 1095.

Do you really think the people cut or chop in the same way?

The governing principles are much the same for everyone, pick a knife which is known to cut well, like the Deerhunter or Calypso Jr. and then do a poll and see how many people say it cuts well. The opposite holds true as well, Benchmade got a reputation for low cutting ability because of over thick and polished edges for exactly this reason.

Now there are variances due to style, for chopping for example stronger people will favor heavier tools and the heavier blades reach optimal performance when they are swung with high power, you can of course describe how you are doing what you are doing, where you are drawing power, how you are angling the blade, slicing or push cutting, etc. .

You can also discuss other blades which have performance you favor and those you don't so your performance baseline is better understood.

-Cliff

 

[ishiyumisan]

Yes that is the point, for normal enviroments there are many choices for blade materials which are immune to rust, H1, Stellite 6K, Talonite, Beta-Ti etc. . So your origional argument of 1095 will rust but you have to look after all steels to prevent corrosion isn't valid.


you should say immune to rust...you should say better than 1095
and believe me in survival event if don't look after your knife:
your knife will not look after you.....any metal


There are now lots of choices for knives where you can even be abusive to the blades and they won't rust, like use them in salt water and don't even rinse them, let alone dry and oil them which would be necessary for 1095.



1095 anyway in my little experience I use this steel (knife) for a several months daily, it didn't rust without using any kind oil.......

My favorite choice is 440c which will rust but according to me it's the best steel until now.

Plan no useless move. Take step in vain.

ishiyumisan*

 

[3Guardsmen]

1095 anyway in my little experience I use this steel (knife) for a several months daily, it didn't rust without using any kind oil.......

What kind of work did you use it (1095) for?

My favorite choice is 440c which will rust but according to me it's the best steel until now.

Let me get this straight, you think 440C is more prone to rusting than 1095?

 

[ishiyumisan]

3Guardsmen]What kind of work did you use it (1095) for?[/PHP][/PHP]



any kind work you cant think of.


[

Let me get this straight, you think 440C is more prone to rusting than 1095?

[/QUOTE]


you think 400c is more prone to rustinig than 01?
you get how you like it, I just say it is my favorite 440c.


plan no useless move.
take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan-

 

[Cliff Stamp]

in survival event if don't look after your knife:
your knife will not look after you.....any metal

Again, there are knives which you don't have to take any steps to prevent corrosion and it does not effect them at all so this arguement applied to corrosion resistance isn't valid.

The same extends over many other attributes as well. Knives which are tougher and more durable for example are better able to handle accidental or high stress misuse.

This isn't an arguement that you should not look after your knives, just that for some, it takes much more work and care than others depending on the enviroment and scope of work.

-Cliff

 

[UltraSteele]

I can't believe the prices on TOPS and a few other brands either. I think TOPS has two claims to fame and high prices; the have great designers and thier shop is a "semi-custom" shop, Like Chris Reeve and SwampRat Knives. The peices aren't all stamped out by machine, there's a lot of hand tooling by skilled workers that (apparently) goes into each one.

I happen to feel that 1095 steel is so old and dirt chaep that charging high prices for anything made with them is... well I'd feel foolish paying those prices for that steel. Don't get me wrong- I like the designs at TOPS and respect their knives... but for 1095 I'll just use my Ka-Bar 1217.

Cheers

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I happen to feel that 1095 steel is so old and dirt chaep that charging high prices for anything made with them is... well I'd feel foolish paying those prices for that steel.

There are lots of knives made from 1095 that I think would be fairly cheap at TOP's prices, they just are not made by TOP's, such as :

http://www.dfoggknives.com/images/ShivDag.jpg

http://store1.yimg.com/I/knifeart_1848_55471537

http://www.bladegallery.com/pics/knife3255.jpg

1095 is a fine steel for many applications, you just can't make a claim for price based on that steel as it is one of the more inexpensive ones to buy, grind and heat treat.

In the above when Brownshoe mentioned the lack of hard work on the TOP's knives he was probably comparing them to something like "Randall Made" knives.

-Cliff