Why are TOPS knives so freaking expensive?

Brian Jones said:
You drew a conclusion on nothing but an assumption.
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The above procedure is standard practice for 1095, a well known carbon steel. As noted, more complicated procedures are necessary for higher alloy steels to deal with the lower transformation temperatures, secondary carbide formers, and higher sensitivety to soak times all well known consequences of working with more complicated steels.

Yes there are steels which are more complicated to heat treat than 1095, this should not be a revelation. You even need different equipment to reach the soak temps on some of the really high alloy steels. If you went to the same temps with 1095 you would simply blow the steel. Then there is the lack of a differential heat treat which alone makes the process more complicated in those that have them.

None of this by the way makes it a bad steel, one of the goals of designing S30V for example was to make it easier to heat treat than S90V.

allenC said:
If you make 1000 knives that are to the exact same specifications, then they are not custom-make, even if they are hand crafted.
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That is how I view it, but the industry doesn't. The word custom has a really odd defination which is hard to exactly state especially when you have makers using assistants, or farming out several parts of the production like blanking, heat treating, coating, sharpening.

-Cliff
 
Mixed comments:

"Handmade" and "custom" are not synonomous. Many custom makes have a standard model lineup in addition to their one-of-a-kind true 'custom' knives. In my mind they can't be considered 'custom' knives unless the knife is somehow uniquely suited to the customer. Additionally, many production knives involve large amounts of hand finishing and are available with personalized features.

Personally I don't think TOPS knives are too expensive. Sure, maybe not everyone can afford their top-of-the-line most-hyped products, but there are many TOPS knives in the sub-$100 range, even one as low as $47. See here: www.knifeworks.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1048

Several reasons why TOPS are priced at their levels:
- advertising
- hand-finishing
- demand vs. limited supply
- current 'tactical' hype
- fitting their prices to their target audience, maintaining status image - they don't necessarily want their knives affordable to every type of person

Regarding the quality of Camillus knives: I have some Camillus knives that are perfectly crafted and razor sharp. Unfortunately it's not consistant; I have some real stinkers from Camillus also. Here's a review I wrote covering three different Camillus products: www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333568

Best Wishes,
Bob
 
Never held a TOP's but they look tough as in -hard usable- , the hype is easy to see , lots of folks love tactical anything , make a 'tactical fingernail clipper' and there are those who will pay the extra 20 bones just to have it.
The whole use of the word custom has me a bit miffed , do a search on eBay for custom knives and you'll see what I mean. People use that word way to loosely nowadays.

Didnt someone on here say custom and handmade are not synonomous ?

Honestly though after doing a ton of searching the last few months , TOPs isnt that overpriced considering what I have seen some knives priced at.
I guess like most other things in life , you'll pay it if you want it bad enough.
 
in my EXPERIENCE Tops is not overpriced. they are high priced but i love my Tracker and wouldn't replace it with anythig. it's got the perfect steel for what it does and the design is great. i shopped around and found a great deal. its one of the most expensive knives i own but in my opinion it's worth every penny....and some days when i'm sitting by a campfire 50 miles from anything resembling civilization with a warm cup of coffee and a hot meal i feel like i made out pretty well...
 
rebeltf said:
Didnt someone on here say custom and handmade are not synonomous ?
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It is true that "handmade" and "custom" are not synonymous. To some people, for it to be a custom knife it must be made by hand (or at least without the use of CNC machines). To others, including the Knifemakers' Guild, CNC machines are fine as long as they belong to, and are used by the person making the knife. There are those that will call it a custom knife only if it is a knife made to custom order, while others consider regular models to be custom knives as long as they are made totally by the maker whose name goes on the blade.

Handmade could be made by one person or more than one person. Randall Made Knives are considered to be handmade, but not custom. The reason for this is that many hands make the knife. There are those that do consider Randalls to be custom knives, but the main concensus is that they are not, not even the customized ones.

The term custom, when it comes to knives, seems open to individual interpretation. There have been hundreds of threads on knife forums about what is or isn't a custom knife, and still there is no consensus on the definition.
 
The whole use of the word custom has me a bit miffed , do a search on eBay for custom knives and you'll see what I mean. People use that word way to loosely nowadays.
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A few years ago in something I was reading, AG Russell pondered the need for a new term to describe knives in the gray area between custom and production, handmade in small batches by small shops. At the time he suggested the term "benchmade". But since Benchmade is now a popular brand name, I don't think that's a valid solution.

One gray-area maker is ANZA knives. Each knife is made upon order, but I bet most of their sales are their standard models. But they also customize their standard models, sell one-of-a-kind ready-made knives, and create entirely new designs (true 'custom' knives) upon request.

Allen Blade is another gray area maker. He accepts orders for his standard models and makes them in batches. Each knife is personalized with the customer's handle material choice and other options, but not exactly my definition of 'custom'. More like 'cutomized'.

-Bob
 
Knives: Very well made and finished. Heavy duty users that deliver in terms of strength and edge holding capabilities. 1095 is my favorite knife steel. They make excellent chopping knives. Their smaller knives that still have a quarter inch spine are not very good slicers though.

Price: If you appreciate a well designed and constructed knife made of usable materials then they are well worth the money. TOPS has some really cool and sleek designs that are marketing gold. But there are other 1095 knives out there that will give the same performance for much less money. For my money I'd be just as happy if not happier with the BK&T line of blades. You pay for a lot of TOPS' ego.

Customer Service: After the utter contempt I received from that company I will never own another TOPS knife again. NEVER. That's all I will say on the subject.

Bottom line: Expensive but finely crafted knives from a company owned by stuck up jerks.
 
Bullwhip said:
But there are other 1095 knives out there that will give the same performance for much less money.
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Look at Blackjack, A2 steel, full convex grinds, now if you want to talk about hand grinding and finishing.

-Cliff
 
TOPs are not handmade knives. At best they are a mid-tech product. Just look at one and compare to a true handmade product. Their designs allows for easy blade blanking and grinding, minimal finish on the flats, maybe some hand shaping on the handles but if you've ever held one it ain't much. Look at a few of the same models in a row...there is not enough variability to believe that they are hand done products. They are overpriced for the steel and construction methods, but given their hype they are priced perfectly and sell well. Last gun show I saw the factory reps at, they were taking back orders and wouldn't take orders on folders.
 
Sorry, brownshoe -- they are handcrafted. They are not midtech, and then detail finished.

The consistency you see is precisely why. However, right in their paper catalog, they say exactly this:

NOTE - TOPS MEASUREMENTS - No two TOPS knives are exactly identical. Measurements given are the average sizes of the first 100 pieces. Each knife is in the hands of a craftsman, doing grinding on either blades or handles. Overall sizes may vary 1/8" - 1/4" on the same model. All final edges are done by hand using leather belts or straps.

Cheers,

~Brian.
 
Bullwhip said:
But there are other 1095 knives out there that will give the same performance for much less money. For my money I'd be just as happy if not happier with the BK&T line of blades. You pay for a lot of TOPS' ego.

Customer Service: After the utter contempt I received from that company I will never own another TOPS knife again. NEVER. That's all I will say on the subject.

Bottom line: Expensive but finely crafted knives from a company owned by stuck up jerks.
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Please elaborate, and be specific. If I can do anything to improve your experience with TOPS, and help Mike tune up his CS department, please let me know.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The late Rob Somonich called his Raven "midtech." My understanding is that there was considerable hand work in producing those knives, one of which I am proud to own. I am having a problem understanding the nature of the conflict I see in the posts above. :confused:

Also, is someone posting in this thread a representative of TOPS?
 
Kohai999 said:
and Mr. Stump, Mike Fuller is a bud of mine.
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So, you're admitting you have a bias?


Kohai999 said:
He works with custom makers to help them realize mass production of their designs, and he has excellent customer service, which is something lacking from some of your pet knife mfg's.
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And you're implying Cliff has one in the very same post? How odd.
 
Brian Jones said:
Tsk, tesk, Cliff. You drew a conclusion on nothing but an assumption. Isn't that bad science?

It makes me wonder how many of the conclusions in your reviews have really been tested, or are just wild guesses on your part...
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Yeah, but he wrote "I assume", prior to his assertion in that thread, thereby clearly demonstrating that it was his assumption. I fail to see how this relates to his reviews, since he doesn't preface his knife reviews with "I assume", like he clearly did in the thread you quoted. Maybe you'd be kind enough to explain to me how you drew the correlation between his post and his reviews? Or were you just dinging him? ;)

I like TOPS knives (most of their designs anyway) and own two. I feel they were slightly overpriced, but I bought them anyway!

Edited to add: I re-read the posts and see where and why you think Cliff made an assertion based off of an assumption, but he was refering to the HT, specifically a differential temper, on a harder to machine steel, and he clearly comunicated that. I can see where it looked like he made an assumption on TOPS' HT, but actually he didn't (TOPS doesn't advertise a differential temper on a harder to machine steel). I still don't see the correlation between the "conclusion based on an assumption" and his reviews though.

Cheers,
3Guardsmen
 
Brian Jones said:
Handmade does not mean custom. I agree. Custom is when a maker designs it to an individual's specs (in my opinion).
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My opinion, too. A.G. Russell's as well. :)
 
Ok, this is on the topic of TOPS knives, but not an answer to the original question. However, since this thread is still going, I'll ask first here: how about a TOPS pass-around? I would love to have a chance to see what these babies can do. Where I live, I've never seen a store that offers TOPS or a knife show that has any. So, can a pass-around of TOPS happen?
 
Keith Montgomery said:
This is totally off topic, but Brian, in your signature, is that supposed to be oxymoronic instead of oymoronic?
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LMAO Keith. Yes, it's supposed to be oxy.... it was not a lame attempt at Yiddish.

3Guardsmen, yes I was just dinging Cliff a little.

Why are TOPS priced where they are? Because they sell at that price very well.

Pass-around might be a good idea...
 
3Guardsmen said:
... the correlation between his post and his reviews?
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In the reviews, usually there are not a lot of conclusions, just work done, and comments on the results, as some of it gets numerical so I summarize it for those that don't want to wade through the numbers.

In general, if you read a statement, or conclusion I make and it isn't clear what I am basing it off of, then just ask me where it comes from and I'll tell you. You can either do this in email or in public on the forums.

-Cliff
 
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