Why doesn't anyone make knives that compete with Cold Steel?

Status
Not open for further replies.
jedi391 said:
Wow, I had no idea this post would generate this emotional of a reaction from some. Let me clarify myself. Price is a factor. I would prefer to stay at about $100 or under. The 4 inch blade length is a personal preference that I really want. I may be willing to go to 3.85 or so but no shorter then that. As far as strength I'm looking for something that locks up solid and in a pinch can handle light battoning and shelter building chores. My favorite knife as already stated is a CQC-15--with a liner lock--. Having said that I don't trust liner locks for things like battoning, others may but I don't.

I don't plan on stabbing a car door but if one knife can do it and another couldn't why wouldn't I go with the one that could?

To everyone giving suggestions, I appreciate it and enjoy looking so please continue to do so. As far as the Spyderco knives, I believe them to be well made knives but I personally don't like the way they look. I've seen the Benchmade 710 but the blade just doesn't have enough belly for my taste. The Adamas would be good if they extended it out to 4 inches. Same problem with the ZT 550/551.

Runnit, please refer again to the question in the post, you didn't cite any knives that fit the criteria I'm looking for.

The Strider SMF is nice but the cost is too much for me. The Benchmade 760 and Hogue both look nice but are pricey and I'm looking for more of a drop point right now.

Again I'm not saying cold steel is the best company, but is the only one that's reasonably priced that I can find that makes a 4 inch blade folding knife with a strong lock (light battoning use) with a pocket clip. My question is why don't other quality companies make a knife to compete with the recon-1's and 4 inch Voyagers? As I said I find allot of their marketing and products to be silly but in the 4 inch folder category I just don't see much competition from anyone.

Again not saying other companies aren't good just saying no one seems to focus on that size and I'm curious why.

Also let's all remember we're talking knife companies here, we're not talking about your kids. There is no reason to take this sensitively.
Click to expand...

re: the blade length, some companies may not make folders in that length because they have a fixed blade market that satisfies that niche, some may specialize in cutting tools that have to meet the various legalities of their end line users. If Cold Steel makes the knife that meets the most requirements of what you need or want in a knife, by all means, purchase one. EDITED TO ADD: The Lawman, Spartan, Rajah, Recon and several others are held in high regard on these forums, as is the TriAd lock for it's strength.

I have had several cold steel knives over the years. I had a voyager once around 2004 but traded it for an endura. I could not open it reliably, the pocket clip was next to useless, the serrations were As Seen on TV junk, and so I traded it. The best lock in the business is no good on a knife that is next to impossible to access, deploy and open one handed IMHO. I have never used a knife with the TriAd lock but then again have never needed the latest greatest lock or blade steel . I can say that I have had 3 locks fail on me in 25 years...one was a "Panther Jr." folding hunter style lockback that my brother carried and used for 10 years. The lug on the lock bar was worn down so badly from use that it would no longer engage the notch on the blade. The second was the Byrd Rescue that I currently carry. The boye dent on the locking bar was not deep enough to keep me from disengaging the lock in a particular grip while wearing heavy rubber commercial fishing gloves. The third knife was a Kershaw Blackout. The liner lock peened from use and the blade tang was able to slip off of it with the lightest of pressure. This is the only knife that I will not trust for use and put it in my knife box for parts. I still carry the Byrd and trust it as much as I did the day I got it.

I have to say though, i don't understand battoning with a folding knife with the blade locked :confused: but I'm not a woodsman or outdoorsman so I guess I don't grasp battoning in the first place! :D

CalBearTactical said:
Its funny how peoples only excuse for dis-liking cold steel is because Lynn Thompson makes videos to advertise his products and then they say " well I would rather have this $500 sebenza with exotic steel"...... but all they do with their expensive knife is take pictures of it and post it on forums.
Click to expand...

why not share with us what you do with your Cold Steel folding knives?

EDITED TO ADD: A lot of people won't own Striders either because both of the company's founders lied about their military service, and one (Mick Strider) is a convicted felon. The same with DPX's H.E.S.T folder after the designer's behavior on bladeforums. Some people feel the same way about Lynn Thompson and won't own Cold Steel knives as a result. It is their choice.
 
Last edited:
CalBearTactical said:
Its funny how peoples only excuse for dis-liking cold steel is because Lynn Thompson makes videos to advertise his products and then they say " well I would rather have this $500 sebenza with exotic steel"...... but all they do with their expensive knife is take pictures of it and post it on forums.
Click to expand...

I can only assume you mean me.

By the way, I paid less than $380 for mine--it's also fully left handed. S30V isn't really considered all that exotic, in fact some people even complain that that is not "exotic enough" for the knife.

I've probably done more with my Sebenza than most have done with their Cold Steels; I've probably done less than what a few have done with their Cold Steels also. It's been used as a hammer, a can opener, a shingle cutter, a fish gutter, a letter/bag/box opener and has even been run over by a car. I wouldn't expect anything less from even a $20 knife.
 
The things that I see Cold Steel fanboys always cling to are:
1. Lock Strength
2. Blade Length
3. Imagined "tactical potential"
4. Value

All of which come from taking Cold Steel's marketing at face value. No one's having problems with well-made locks failing under normal circumstances (and there have been instances of tri-ad locks failing), that extra half inch of blade length isn't going to make a difference, the tactical image is pure marketing and internet rumor, and cheap doesn't equate to good value. Cold Steel is great at pretending to have answers to problems no one had, and if buying their products somehow makes you feel reassured, I have nothing against you allocating your funds towards knives I'm not looking for. But if you're willing to give up some of the less practical features Cold Steel has convinced many are essential in a knife, there are a lot of better-made, better-warrantied, better priced, and better-functioning options out there.
 
Cold Steel's boomarang and their plastic dagger hidden inside the hair brush are two must-haves when threatened by lunatics around the food-court.
Old-school CS deserves some respect, however, most of their new stuff is embarrasing to the knife community.
And I don't care how much you love your Recon 1.
 
this thread started getting interesting about the second someone mentioned they beat their knives with tonfas.
 
@ Pete, I should just say that the only reason I was surprised by the results of my "test" is that I had been assured by a Spyderco rep that their lock was one of the strongest in the business, and that it could support over a thousand pounds of force applied directly to the pivot without failing. I don't regularly abuse my knives (that one seemed like a good opportunity because I have a sprint run Manix 2, and one I broke never gets carried), or use them in fashions other than what one would expect a knife to be able to handle.

What I think is worth remarking about my success breaking my Manix 2 is that it is often marketed as an extremely hard use lock that will never fail, and I had it direct from their sales guy in their factory outlet that it wouldn't fail, even under heavy abuse. I've done the same before to a BM 530, knowing in advance that such a light knife would break somehow, but it was the handle that broke, not the lock. That from a 2 oz knife. I don't think it's necessarily a strike against the Manix 2 that it did fail under what is admittedly abuse. I DO think it is a strike against Spyderco to tell a potential customer that the Ball Bearing Lock is in any way as strong as the Triad lock and will hold up under heavy abuse, when in fact it won't. And it's not even like the lock failed. It straight up broke.

Should that be taken as a knock against Spyderco knives in general? No. I love Spyderco, and don't hesitate to recommend their knives. But I asked specifically about the failures in spine whack tests, and was told specifically that they had fixed that issue, and that they had tested the new ball bearing lock by clamping the blade and handle and suspending weight in the middle above the pivot to find out how much it took before it broke. The rep said specifically that they put 1000 pounds of weight on before it broke, and even then, the handle broke, and the lock never failed. And that's not from some knife store guy. That's from a rep who works in their factory outlet in Golden and said he regularly works in the factory itself. I find it hard to believe that 10 whacks with a wooden baton could literally break the ball bearing loose from the lock, if that story were true. I was told that if I wanted a hard-use knife whose lock would "never fail," I should purchase the Manix 2. I bought it at factory outlet prices too, on the strength of that story. That's about 30 dollars more than it goes for on the secondary market.

And I used the knife WITHOUT abusing it for a year, and I still think it's a great knife. But the fact that it DID fail under circumstances considerably less strenuous than I was led to believe by a company employee that it would survive, strikes me as false advertising, and I think others, who thought as I do that the Manix 2 lock is just as strong as it's competitors from Cold Steel and Benchmade, ought to know that's just not true.

-edit- I should also say that the only reason I did this in the first place is that I was confident, based on the assurances I had from the company, that it would hold up very well against abuse, and I could put to rest the claims that it's not a solid lock. I went into that as a firm believer in the Ball Bearing lock, otherwise I'd never have attempted it. I don't really like breaking my knives, especially when I paid nearly $100 for the thing.
 
Not to say that Cold steel knives don't have some design and quality merit but stabbing a folding knife that is as long as my arm through a car door doesn't make me believe that it is a good durable knife. What does make me want a knife is the reputation that precedes it. Take Emerson for example they do little to no advertising whatsoever and yet they make what is regarded by many as one of the best "hard use knives there is. I just don't see why people insist that they only want to buy a knife that the feel they can't physically destroy no matter what they do to it. A knife is a tool and any quality knife will be able to fulfill all of the tasks ever asked of it.
 
I doubt that anyone is actively hating on Cold steel. They make some decent budget friendly knives, hell I loved the large Voyager I had, until it was stolen, I still like my kukri style machete too. However I do prefer my Benchmade 710 over the Cold Steel in a comparably sized knife, there is literally no comparision in blade material, edge holding, or overall knife feel. When I use a knife for my work, I'll actually use a Kershaw over my Benchmades, the Kershaw can be painlessly replaced, whereas the Benchmades would sting. To the OP, not many people actually prefer a 4" pocket knife for daily use, I personnally prefer a Kershaw leek for my own job, and yes the tip is a little delicate. I'm not sure what you do, or how you use your knife, so I can't really give you a solid recommendation. I also have a Spyderco Tenacious that has taken every bit of punishment that I have dished out, and keeps going strong.
Considering that I am 6'5" and around 300lbs, and work offshore as an electrician, you might get an idea of what I can put a knife through on a daily basis. That being said if you "need" to stab through a car door, car hood, pry doors open, etc, use the proper tool...
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
@ Pete, I should just say that the only reason I was surprised by the results of my "test" is that I had been assured by a Spyderco rep that their lock was one of the strongest in the business, and that it could support over a thousand pounds of force applied directly to the pivot without failing. I don't regularly abuse my knives (that one seemed like a good opportunity because I have a sprint run Manix 2, and one I broke never gets carried), or use them in fashions other than what one would expect a knife to be able to handle.

What I think is worth remarking about my success breaking my Manix 2 is that it is often marketed as an extremely hard use lock that will never fail, and I had it direct from their sales guy in their factory outlet that it wouldn't fail, even under heavy abuse. I've done the same before to a BM 530, knowing in advance that such a light knife would break somehow, but it was the handle that broke, not the lock. That from a 2 oz knife. I don't think it's necessarily a strike against the Manix 2 that it did fail under what is admittedly abuse. I DO think it is a strike against Spyderco to tell a potential customer that the Ball Bearing Lock is in any way as strong as the Triad lock and will hold up under heavy abuse, when in fact it won't. And it's not even like the lock failed. It straight up broke.

Should that be taken as a knock against Spyderco knives in general? No. I love Spyderco, and don't hesitate to recommend their knives. But I asked specifically about the failures in spine whack tests, and was told specifically that they had fixed that issue, and that they had tested the new ball bearing lock by clamping the blade and handle and suspending weight in the middle above the pivot to find out how much it took before it broke. The rep said specifically that they put 1000 pounds of weight on before it broke, and even then, the handle broke, and the lock never failed. And that's not from some knife store guy. That's from a rep who works in their factory outlet in Golden and said he regularly works in the factory itself. I find it hard to believe that 10 whacks with a wooden baton could literally break the ball bearing loose from the lock, if that story were true. I was told that if I wanted a hard-use knife whose lock would "never fail," I should purchase the Manix 2. I bought it at factory outlet prices too, on the strength of that story. That's about 30 dollars more than it goes for on the secondary market.

And I used the knife WITHOUT abusing it for a year, and I still think it's a great knife. But the fact that it DID fail under circumstances considerably less strenuous than I was led to believe by a company employee that it would survive, strikes me as false advertising, and I think others, who thought as I do that the Manix 2 lock is just as strong as it's competitors from Cold Steel and Benchmade, ought to know that's just not true.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of strength, the lock is strong, it's a result of a flaw in how it's applied!
 
CS blades are among my favorites -- I have about a dozen, all of them users. Lynn Thompson is one of the most innovative blade designers of the last three decades, IMHO; he has come up with some modern classics such as the North American tanto, the Master Hunter and the SRK. His folders are very well designed, and the steels well-suited to the intended use. I have quite a few by other makers that I like as well or more, but every one of my CS knives does what it's supposed to do: cut.
 
Finarfin said:
Meaningless, the paper thin tip of the Manix 2 is likely to chip off going through a cardboard carton...
Click to expand...

You are wrong in multiple ways. I've used my Manix 2 as a hiking knife and a work knife for the past year or so. Its held up very well, and to be honest I had to pry with it a few times. The tip never broke! I have no clue why you are fixated on bashing the Manix, but you seem to have a strong dislike for its "paper thin tip". :rolleyes:



I haven't owned any Cold Steel products yet, but their regular line-up looks very nice
 
Finarfin said:
Meaningless, the paper thin tip of the Manix 2 is likely to chip off going through a cardboard carton...
Click to expand...

You keep claiming that it's paper thin. It's not. Do you even own one? I'll grant you the lock isn't as strong as a Triad lock, although it does just fine under any kind of normal use. But I don't get where you say it's paper thin.

2011-08-19171439.jpg


That's a ZT 0350, admittedly the thickest of the bunch on top, Manix 2, and Doug Ritter Griptilian. All three supposedly hard use knives. That's a pretty thick blade, and hardly useless. Let's see YOUR paper thin Manix 2 tip.
 
Tsujigiri said:
The things that I see Cold Steel fanboys always cling to are:
1. Lock Strength
2. Blade Length
3. Imagined "tactical potential"
4. Value

All of which come from taking Cold Steel's marketing at face value. No one's having problems with well-made locks failing under normal circumstances (and there have been instances of tri-ad locks failing), that extra half inch of blade length isn't going to make a difference, the tactical image is pure marketing and internet rumor, and cheap doesn't equate to good value. Cold Steel is great at pretending to have answers to problems no one had, and if buying their products somehow makes you feel reassured, I have nothing against you allocating your funds towards knives I'm not looking for. But if you're willing to give up some of the less practical features Cold Steel has convinced many are essential in a knife, there are a lot of better-made, better-warrantied, better priced, and better-functioning options out there.
Click to expand...

Number 1 and 4 don't seem bad to me. I still remember before triad locks that Benchmade's Axis lock was "King of all Locks"... nobody gave them crap back then about how useless strong locks were
 
a spine whack and whaling on the spine of the knife with a tonfa baton while it is clamped in a vice are 2 different animals. But I am not here to speak for spyderco. their product speaks for itself. I just don't see any validity in your "test" or Ankerson's original one where the lock failed. I catalog them with Noss' idiotic destruction tests that offer no real valid results or information except that a sledgehammer will destroy a knife.

There is a post on Spyderco's forum of a Salt 1 being run over by a bobcat. the handle broke before the lock failed. It is a lock back. By your logic, that is a pretty strong lock, because it survived being run over by a 1000 lb machine.

People will buy what they like, what they want, and what they percieve to be the right knife for their intended need. That is the fun of our hobby. But spewing unfounded information based on internet myth is counter productive and a disservice to someone who may not know and take it as fact. The paper thin tip of the manix (per Finarfin) penetrated human flesh without breaking and the delicate lock did not fail and cause the forumite who used it in self defense to lose his fingers. That is a real world testimony to the strength of the knife tip and lock.

My endura did not fold backwards when cutting through 2 inch hawser rope. That is real world testimony. I even have photos in the link in my sig line.
Beating on the spine of a knife until it breaks is not real world testing, or real world experience. It is someone beating on the spine of a knife in a vise until it breaks. You aren't "teaching" people that the ball bearing lock is weaker than the TriAd or Axis lock, you are just teaching them that you haven't pounded knives with those locks until they broke. That is how internet myth gets started.
 
tom1417 said:
Not to say that Cold steel knives don't have some design and quality merit but stabbing a folding knife that is as long as my arm through a car door doesn't make me believe that it is a good durable knife. What does make me want a knife is the reputation that precedes it. Take Emerson for example they do little to no advertising whatsoever and yet they make what is regarded by many as one of the best "hard use knives there is. I just don't see why people insist that they only want to buy a knife that the feel they can't physically destroy no matter what they do to it. A knife is a tool and any quality knife will be able to fulfill all of the tasks ever asked of it.
Click to expand...

I don't pay much attention to CS advertising, however as a hard use folding knife(if such a thing truly exists)the American Lawman, or Recon1 folders far exceed the capabilities of the Spyderco in question. Also tips being strong enough to go through a car hood may be ridiculous overkill, hype even, nonetheless I have no doubt as to the outcome of the Manix 2 attempting such a stunt. So as foolish as it may seem to some, these particular posturings of CS are quite effective at driving home the point(pun intended :))
 
The real question is why has Cold Steel stopped sending me free promo videos? I've been a faithful viewer for at least 7 years. True, the only CS I've bought was a Ti-Lite. Come to think of it the salesman at the knife store gave me my first video when I bought that knife :D
 
-edit- For anyone that doesn't want to read my wall of text regarding my "test," I'll summarize my position.

1. I like Spyderco knives, and would happily recommend the Manix 2 to anyone for any kind of normal knife use.
2. I did indeed submit my Manix 2 and BM 530 to virtually identical abuse far beyond what one should expect a folding knife to handle in any kind of real world situation. Both knives broke; the lock on the Manix 2 failed and broke, while the handle on the 530 broke.
3. This is pretty much the first time that I have ever abused a knife. I don't plan on repeating the experience. I did it because, based on Spyderco's direct account and assurance about how strong their knife lock was, I EXPECTED to prove that their ball bearing lock can run with the best in terms of surviving HEAVY ABUSE. It can't.

Pete1977 said:
a spine whack and whaling on the spine of the knife with a tonfa baton while it is clamped in a vice are 2 different animals.
Click to expand...

No disagreement here. But then, you amply demonstrate that you didn't read my post with any kind of attention. Beating on the spine with a baton and hanging 1000 pounds of weight on the pivot aren't the same animals either. I wasn't hitting with even remotely the same kind of force that their reported test would have generated. It's the rare human arm that can put 1000 pounds of force on something. So by your logic, if their story were true, it should have survived MY abuse quite handily. It didn't.

Pete1977 said:
By your logic, that is a pretty strong lock, because it survived being run over by a 1000 lb machine.
Click to expand...
Wrong. They would have had to suspend the Bobcat from the pivot of the knife with the blade and handle clamped. That's what they reported the Manix 2 lock being able to handle. I'm not even going to go into any kind of detail into the difference in force diagram we'd be talking about comparing a knife being run over by a vehicle to one that's specifically set up to test the pivot and the lock. Those aren't even in the same category.

Pete1977 said:
Beating on the spine of a knife until it breaks is not real world testing, or real world experience. It is someone beating on the spine of a knife in a vise until it breaks. You aren't "teaching" people that the ball bearing lock is weaker than the TriAd or Axis lock, you are just teaching them that you haven't pounded knives with those locks until they broke.
Click to expand...

Yet more evidence that you didn't read my post carefully. I did indeed do the same test, as mentioned in pretty much every one of my posts in here, to a Benchmade 530. The lock on the 530 didn't fail. Others have documented abusing Cold Steel folders (which I don't own) in a similar or more extreme fashion without failure. There's no myth here. There's hard fact. Yes, we both agree it was abuse, and far outside what should be expected from a folding knife in general. But it was well inside what should have been possible for the lock given what the company markets it as being able to withstand.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top