Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?

[bodog]

the one I had I could turn upside down, give the slightest of slight shakes (and I really do mean slight) and the blade would open to where the blade was 1/4 to 1/2 open. When I tried using the flipper, I had to use a wrist flick to get it to open all the way. Either that or put a ridiculous amount of preload onto the flipper. forget about using the flipper if the knife was pointed straight up. I've owned three ZT 0560CBCF's. Two had less than strong detents. Not as bad as the XM, but definitely not strong. ZT fixed one of the detents without much of an issue and the other one, well I'll just say they made it right. I will say that the ZT 0600 I had and the 0561 I currently edc both had absolutely perfect detents. That's good customer service. There was a problem, they fixed it. Not just that, but their manager became personally involved to make sure I was a happy customer and that things were fixed properly. I damn sure am a happy customer with KAI.

PS: This isn't a post meant to bash the XM, it's meant to show those interested which company will do right by their customers. I wish Rob Orlando would take note.

 

[DrFish]

Absolutely technically speaking correct.
The law is phrased with the non-correct way of things though, so I have to deal with that issue.
When I get enough cash to order a Hinderer, that is...which might take a while.

As much as I like Hinderers and XM-18s, I have to say that this entire thing is a legal minefield.

When you outright state in print that the knife is designed to enable an inertial opening, you have essentially stated that the knife is a gravity knife under the law in most states. Gravity knives are defined as dangerous weapons. So you're pretty much stating that the knife was designed as a dangerous weapon. If I was a defense attorney, I would hate to see that kind of language from the manufacturer, because it's about as bad as etching "Man killer" on the blade. It pretty much makes the entire line of knives defacto illegal in many jurisdictions because the knife was purposely designed to be a gravity knife. Even if you tighten the pivot, you still have a knife that was designed to be a gravity knife. It's really touchy.

 

[bld522]

Shake. Inertia is overcoming the detent. Not gravity overcoming inertia. YES, that defines it as a gravity knife in most jurisdictions. I still wouldn't say that "Gravity overcomes inertia" in this case. It's nonsensical.

If that works for you, it works for me.

 

[bld522]

As much as I like Hinderers and XM-18s, I have to say that this entire thing is a legal minefield.

When you outright state in print that the knife is designed to enable an inertial opening, you have essentially stated that the knife is a gravity knife under the law in most states. Gravity knives are defined as dangerous weapons. So you're pretty much stating that the knife was designed as a dangerous weapon. If I was a defense attorney, I would hate to see that kind of language from the manufacturer, because it's about as bad as etching "Man killer" on the blade. It pretty much makes the entire line of knives defacto illegal in many jurisdictions because the knife was purposely designed to be a gravity knife. Even if you tighten the pivot, you still have a knife that was designed to be a gravity knife. It's really touchy.

Hence my reason for saving a copy, DrFish. You never know what it might come in handy.

 

[nettles]

Question to anyone with knowledge of the design/intended purpose:

do the 3" XM-18's have the same deployment method design? The one I once owned would open easily via flipper or thumbstuds, but would not open via the "SOS" or inertia method as described above.

Also, I have not read any discussion of the later Gen XM-18's or the XM-24's having this same "weak" detent, it seems exclusive to the Gen3 models. I am not an RHK aficionado so I could be incorrect, but it would be good to know in case another XM-18 is in my future.

I haven't handled the knives but in the hinderer section of the forum it is stated on their faq for the xm-18 line that all of the knives have the same detents on both sides of the blade . That means the bigger the blade the easier it is to be deployed by gravity. I know it's not the same as actually holding the knives and feeling the detent pressure but I hope it helps clarify things some

 

[Scurvy092]

As much as I like Hinderers and XM-18s, I have to say that this entire thing is a legal minefield.

When you outright state in print that the knife is designed to enable an inertial opening, you have essentially stated that the knife is a gravity knife under the law in most states. Gravity knives are defined as dangerous weapons. So you're pretty much stating that the knife was designed as a dangerous weapon. If I was a defense attorney, I would hate to see that kind of language from the manufacturer, because it's about as bad as etching "Man killer" on the blade. It pretty much makes the entire line of knives defacto illegal in many jurisdictions because the knife was purposely designed to be a gravity knife. Even if you tighten the pivot, you still have a knife that was designed to be a gravity knife. It's really touchy.

I guess it's a good thing they only sell direct to Leo/mil/ems/fire etc who are usually exempt from such restrictions.

Winning one at a lottery is no different than buying and automatic knife at a show. Anyone trying to pin any liability on Hinderer for it would be in for a rude awakening.

 

[DrFish]

I guess it's a good thing they only sell direct to Leo/mil/ems/fire etc who are usually exempt from such restrictions.

Winning one at a lottery is no different than buying and automatic knife at a show. Anyone trying to pin any liability on Hinderer for it would be in for a rude awakening.

Oh, I wouldn't be worried about liability on hinderer's part. I'd be worried about a DA like Vance in NYC seeing it and any defense you have about your knife being a "tool" going out the window. Designed to be a gravity knife = weapon. Remember that the only saving grace that keeps assisted openers legal is the bias towards closing that makes it a "safety feature".

 

[chambelona59]

Oh, I wouldn't be worried about liability on hinderer's part. I'd be worried about a DA like Vance in NYC seeing it and any defense you have about your knife being a "tool" going out the window. Designed to be a gravity knife = weapon. Remember that the only saving grace that keeps assisted openers legal is the bias towards closing that makes it a "safety feature".

Truth be told.

 

[AZ2AK]

"gravity knife" is not an accurate description of the XM-18. I don't feel like investing a whole lot of time typing, simply because those who get it, well, get it and those that don't either can't or won't.

So, in lieu of a wall of text I snapped a quick video while out and about today. Please forgive the crappy video quality and completely unscripted narrative. And I hope my wife doesn't notice the small nick I put in her dash on one of my opening attempts

[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt2s6oqu69nvj66/Video%20May%2030%2C%2015%2002%2013.mov[/video]

 

[mag1]

"gravity knife" is not an accurate description of the XM-18. I don't feel like investing a whole lot of time typing, simply because those who get it, well, get it and those that don't either can't or won't.

So, in lieu of a wall of text I snapped a quick video while out and about today. Please forgive the crappy video quality and completely unscripted narrative. And I hope my wife doesn't notice the small nick I put in her dash on one of my opening attempts

[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt2s6oqu69nvj66/Video%20May%2030%2C%2015%2002%2013.mov[/video]

Bravo on the vid! Nice custom

 

[stabman]

"gravity knife" is not an accurate description of the XM-18. I don't feel like investing a whole lot of time typing, simply because those who get it, well, get it and those that don't either can't or won't.

So, in lieu of a wall of text I snapped a quick video while out and about today. Please forgive the crappy video quality and completely unscripted narrative. And I hope my wife doesn't notice the small nick I put in her dash on one of my opening attempts

[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt2s6oqu69nvj66/Video%20May%2030%2C%2015%2002%2013.mov[/video]

You didn't have to flick it that hard.
Pretty much any cop around here would flick it harder than that.
Like I said, I'd have to tighten the pivot a bunch before carrying it.

This is not unique to that knife though...I have had to tighten others down to avoid them being an issue as well.
I just wish that it wasn't on record that the knife is designed to open with a good flick.

 

[MostMenAreRuthless]

"gravity knife" is not an accurate description of the XM-18. I don't feel like investing a whole lot of time typing, simply because those who get it, well, get it and those that don't either can't or won't.

So, in lieu of a wall of text I snapped a quick video while out and about today. Please forgive the crappy video quality and completely unscripted narrative. And I hope my wife doesn't notice the small nick I put in her dash on one of my opening attempts

[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt2s6oqu69nvj66/Video%20May%2030%2C%2015%2002%2013.mov[/video]

Thanks for the video. Quick and dirty, but illuminating.
I wonder if any of those who DO have a very weak detent would mind posting a video to show the difference between this knife and their knife.

And yes, as stated before--that is a knice looking knife.

 

[AZ2AK]

You didn't have to flick it that hard.
Pretty much any cop around here would flick it harder than that.
Like I said, I'd have to tighten the pivot a bunch before carrying it.

This is not unique to that knife though...I have had to tighten others down to avoid them being an issue as well.
I just wish that it wasn't on record that the knife is designed to open with a good flick.

What do you mean by the bolded text? Are you saying that I didn't flick it very hard and yet it opened? Or are you saying I didn't have to flick it as hard as I did to get it to open?

If it's the former, I flicked the crap out of it - and had a couple of misfires where it didn't open.

If the latter, yeah it took a good flick to get it to go.

In regard to the cop - I live where I do for a reason, any cop around here won't have any reason to touch let alone flick my knives.

 

[stabman]

What do you mean by the bolded text? Are you saying that I didn't flick it very hard and yet it opened? Or are you saying I didn't have to flick it as hard as I did to get it to open?

Just saying that the amount of force required to open it was not large. So definitely not saying you flicked it too hard.

The video shows that the knife is safe enough to carry; it does not open on its own.
But the amount of movement/force needed to flick it open is far less than what most cops around here use when checking to see if a pocket knife flicks, and hence is considered a prohibited weapon.

 

[bld522]

I guess it's a good thing they only sell direct to Leo/mil/ems/fire etc who are usually exempt from such restrictions.

Except they don't. They also sell through the retail channel. Not a whole lot, granted, but enough to defeat the argument they ONLY sell direct to Leo/mil/ems/fire, etc. And while we sit here in the comfort of our surroundings arguing the finer points of whether or not an XM is a gravity knife, that is simply NOT a conversation I ever want to have with someone in law enforcement who happens to be performing their duties at the time. YMMV.

 

[AZ2AK]

Thanks for the video. Quick and dirty, but illuminating.
I wonder if any of those who DO have a very weak detent would mind posting a video to show the difference between this knife and their knife.

And yes, as stated before--that is a knice looking knife.

Thanks.

Full disclosure: I am a fan of the XM-18 and fully satisfied with any interactions I've had with RHK staff. However, I am not a "fanboi" - in fact I detest that word - and I'm very particular about my gear. What I mean by that is while I truly like and enjoy my XMs, I am also honest in my evaluation of them. Otherwise, I'd put my money and interest elsewhere.

I said all of that to say - I currently own 12 XM-18s and have had over 16 different ones. I could replicate that video with every single one of them.

The four I no longer own were either sold or traded for other XMs (on-topic part of my post )..

 

[alwayscarryaknife]

Except they don't. They also sell through the retail channel. Not a whole lot, granted, but enough to defeat the argument they ONLY sell direct to Leo/mil/ems/fire, etc. And while we sit here in the comfort of our surroundings arguing the finer points of whether or not an XM is a gravity knife, that is simply NOT a conversation I ever want to have with someone in law enforcement who happens to be performing their duties at the time. YMMV.

The same can be said for a company that sells a knife that has a blade larger than three inches and somebody carries it into a jurisdiction that has a three inch blade limit. That's not on the company that's on the individual.

This thread has gotten so far off topic that we're going to need Garmin to get it back on track.

 

[bld522]

That's true. But we've also covered a lot of ground and I, for one, have learned a lot from this thread. Sometimes it's good to let the tackle fly.

 

[MostMenAreRuthless]

I have also enjoyed the interesting discussion and points of view as well as the lessons in RHK knives as well as physics!

There has been a good tone and very little bickering--what a mature crowd we are!

 

[gpo1956]

The one and only XM18 I had would unlock with very little force, unless tightened enough that it wouldn't flip.