Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?

Even with just a good pair of nitriles on most thumb studs on the knives I've used don't work very well, especially when your adrenaline gets going. That's why most of my knives have spydie holes, I can't say I've used an xm but I have a couple of knives with loose detents and strong lock-ups and they work pretty well for my use.
 
Scurvy092 said:
What if you have on heavy gloves? The flipper and the studs might not be easily accessible that way.
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Me. I would just take them off :p




As I said in my previous post, the detent was just right on the one I tried in a pass around.
 
Scurvy092 said:
I thought it was a well know fact that Hinderers are not made with strong detents. They are designed that way so you can shake the knife out quickly if the situation arises.
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Yup, it is. I knew that going in, but decided to give it a shot.. Turns out it isn't for me. That's all.
 
Rob, every time I'd send a message to Rick, he'd respond with a very respectable and respectful way. You? Not so much. It doesn't help that when I'd send a message to Rick's email address, I'd get two conflicting messages in return, one from you and one from Rick. Here's a tip, man. If someone sends a message to Rick specifically, let him answer for himself. I can't for the life of me figure out why your boss let's you stomp on his responses. He said one thing and then you'd respond with something different and I'd send another email to him asking and it's like you kept him from answering. I don't get it. It's not about being a straight shooter with you. It's more about disdain, evidently. Is he beholdened to you or something? I'm serious here. And no one is asking for a custom knife from you guys for 400 bucks, but is it really unreasonable for your customers to ask for a knife the doesn't open on it own when turned upside down? I asked if you guys wanted a video sent to you displaying the extreme lack of detent and you refused. Yes, I sold it, the guy who bought it turned around and sold it himself, making a little profit on it himself.

It seems that that's all your knives are really for, making profit for the people who buy them until they wind up in someone's safe who doesn't give a crap about safety. I thought generally tools were produced to be used. Don't tell me that freely opening blades are how you want them, not if you actually design them for first responders. That's a liability issue and you know it. In the end, I don't care about the detent as much as I care about how I was treated by you specifically. Again, Rick seemed like a stand up guy, my only beef with him is that he let you contradict his responses and speak to his customers like you do. Remove you from the situation and I would have no complaints, the knife would've gotten fixed or sold as being a knife simply not for me. That would've been it. Stop talking over Rick and have some respect for the people you sell knives to. Stop relying on the "I'm a straight shooter" mantra and just be as respectful to someone as they are to you. And maybe tell someone that while you can't fix the detent, but here's how to mod it so it works fine, and honor the warranty of someone mods that specific issue. Is that really unreasonable? How about this, offer two versions, one with a blade that opens on its own and one that doesn't. It doesn't seem that difficult. Market it as Gen 4 Type 1 or Gen 4 Type 2, or whatever. The guys who buy your knives deserve to feel safe when carrying a tool that you guys produce for them and market to them. Take care.
 
Just wondering, is the inertial opening for the guys who wear mittens? I wear gloves working in the yard all the time and my flippers somehow work when pushed on with a gloved finger. Maybe insulated gloves would hinder opening but they would hinder holding it and pulling it out of your pocket also. I had an XM18. Loved it, but didn't like when it would come open in my pocket. I sold mine and bought my wife a camera for Christmas a few years ago.
 
You even paid the average customer hinderer dealer price, and feel to guilty using the knife for the price. Or you get the knife for military pricing (correct price) and feel guilty using the knife because you can sell it for double to an average customer if you keep it mint.
 
bld522 said:
Couldn't "poor customer service" be a legitimate reason for not keeping a knife? :confused:
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Sure! There's LOTS of choices if you want to spend money on a nice knife. If I buy a knife from a company, and their representatives don't treat me with respect, then I'm going to sell the knives and give the money to a company that better deserves my business.
 
mjolnir74 said:
Just wondering, is the inertial opening for the guys who wear mittens?
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Rick was a firefighter, so I'll make a guess that he had envisioned someone in full firefighting turnouts using the knife. If you have never worn a pair of structural firefighting gloves, let me tell you they are extremely thick and it is near impossible to use a thumb stud or flipper with them.
 
Fascinatinger and fascinatinger.

A couple of issues here. First, based on your post, bodog, the Rick/Rob relationship looks like good cop/bad cop to me. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that and it won't be the last. Second, the condition you describe in your post concerning the weak detent appears to make the knife fit the description of a gravity knife. Unless I'm mistaken, gravity knives are illegal in many jurisdictions. Now if Rick only sells his knives to people who have a legal right to own gravity knives, he presumably assumes no liability if the knives subsequently fall into the hands of those who don't have the legal right to own them. But he also sells some of those knives through the retail channel. And unless I'm mistaken, those knives are NOT described as gravity knives. If someone who is not legally entitled to purchase a gravity knife buys it from an authorized retailer without knowing that's what they're doing and subsequently runs into a legal issue because of it, it's possible that Rick could incur liability for not fully disclosing that fact.
 
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Rob Orlando said:
I don't sugar coat things, I don't make promises I can't keep, I don't beat around the bush, when I answer emails I get to the point. If stating facts to you regarding our policy on detents and standing behind my company's policy makes me a dick, then I guess I am. I have stated it publicly in our forums here and elsewhere on more than one occasion that XM folders do not have stiff flipper style detents. Rick designed the knife with 3 opening methods, flipper, thumbstud and inertia, a stiff detent will eliminate the inertia and possible the thumbstud for some folks and that is not how they were designed. So the spec that Rick has chosen is not for everyone, same goes with all knives out there, you either like the knife and it's features or you don't. I stated these same facts to you when answering your email, and you chose to not like the answer, that I can't control, our policies and methods with dealing with warranty and service I can. We stand behind every product we sell, but we don't offer carte blanche customization on request, these are production knives all built within the same perimeters and specs. You have a pretty dramatic pitch regarding safety and it hurting you or someone else, but it didn't stop you from selling the knife to someone. Apparently, the detent suited them just fine, we haven't had a detent related email in ages.

I am not going to get into a debate, I provided facts regarding Hinderer Knives policies regarding detents, and apparently it has been taken personally. If anyone has any questions or concerns for me drop me a line anytime, rob@rickhindererknives.com
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I think you could've handled this much better, Rob.
When a customer says the detent is "dangerously nonexsistent" you should ask the customer to please send the knife in to be inspected. If the knife meets your specs THEN tell the customer that in a nice way, and return the knife to them.

I don't think they should be told it meets spec in an email, and that nothing can be done, when they say the detent is "dangerously nonexsistent".

Could he be exaggerating ? Maybe so, but you can't assume that since no company sends out a perfect knife that meets their specs 100% of the time.
He could be telling the truth, and you should treat people as they are until you get a chance to inspect the knife.

Thats how any company I know of handles it.

No disrespect intended, Rob. Just trying to help, and hope you have a great day.
 
bld522 said:
Fascinatinger and fascinatinger.

A couple of issues here. First, based on your post, bodog, the Rick/Rob relationship looks like good cop/bad cop to me. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen that and it won't be the last. Second, the condition you describe in your post concerning the weak detent appears to make the knife fit the description of a gravity knife. Unless I'm mistaken, gravity knives are illegal in many jurisdictions. Now if Rick only sells his knives to people who have a legal right to own gravity knives, he presumably assumes no liability if the knives subsequently fall into the hands of those who don't have the legal right to own them. But he also sells some of those knives through the retail channel. And unless I'm mistaken, those knives are NOT described as gravity knives. If someone who is not legally entitled to purchase a gravity knife buys it from an authorized retailer without knowing that's what they're doing, it's possible that Rick could incur liability for not fully disclosing that fact.
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Knife laws are tricky. According to the old knife laws here in sc (most of which got repealed) any knife that can be shaken open with gravity is a gravity knife. Every spyderco I own can be opened by shaking if you fling them a certain way or grasp the blade instead of the handle. I think these laws were made about knives with buttons like switchblades but without the spring.
 
Right. But I don't believe any other manufacturer makes the following claim:

"Rick designed the knife with 3 opening methods, flipper, thumbstud and inertia, a stiff detent will eliminate the inertia and possible the thumbstud for some folks and that is not how they were designed."

This is practically an admission that the knife can operate as a gravity knife, is it not?
 
bld522 said:
Right. But I don't believe any other manufacturer makes the following claim:

"Rick designed the knife with 3 opening methods, flipper, thumbstud and inertia, a stiff detent will eliminate the inertia and possible the thumbstud for some folks and that is not how they were designed."

This is practically an admission that the knife can operate as a gravity knife, is it not?
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You're right about that. The law use to state that any knife capable of being opened by inertia or gravity constitutes a gravity knife. I'm no lawyer but if it came to a court case I'm pretty sure you'd have a very weak defense. I'm just glad I live in a state that has only two knife laws. Only blades under two inches are allowed at schools and you can't carry on certain state property. Keeps things simple.
 
Silvanus said:
Rick was a firefighter, so I'll make a guess that he had envisioned someone in full firefighting turnouts using the knife. If you have never worn a pair of structural firefighting gloves, let me tell you they are extremely thick and it is near impossible to use a thumb stud or flipper with them.
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Thanks, it just seems to me that, realistically, at some point it would be very hard to withdraw the knife and deploy it with gloves that thick on. Much less being able to hold it and use it properly? Seems like if you're going into a situation where you know you might need a knife that a folder isn't the best option. I don't know, I'm not a firefighter. I do wear cryo gloves a lot and if I for some crazy reason needed to cut something while wearing those gloves a folder would come last. It's like trying to manipulate things through a pillow.
 
I have to say that I'm over guys who act like dicks and when called on it, try to bluster their way out of it by saying they "don't sugarcoat things" or they just like to "get to the point". No. You're being a dick. And a rude one at that. Giving someone direct, relevant information, and being politely professional don't need to be mutually exclusive events. In fact, they never are with people who have actual business sense.
 
mjolnir74 said:
Seems like if you're going into a situation where you know you might need a knife that a folder isn't the best option.
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I don't carry my XM's in my turnouts. I do carry a Hinderer/Gerber rescue knife but I've never used it in a fire. To cut things inside buildings, most times wire cutters will suffice. A fixed blade is iffy because the last thing you want to do in a completely dark, extremely hot environment is poke a hole in your pants trying to put the knife in its sheath. I've been in buildings where it was 300 degrees at floor level so it's better to have a folder. Others may disagree. Honestly, a gravity/auto knife is the easiest to open and close in those situations, hence the XM's detent.

This is just a theory, I have no way of knowing if this is the reasoning behind the detent.
 
nettles said:
You're right about that. The law use to state that any knife capable of being opened by inertia or gravity constitutes a gravity knife. I'm no lawyer but if it came to a court case I'm pretty sure you'd have a very weak defense. I'm just glad I live in a state that has only two knife laws. Only blades under two inches are allowed at schools and you can't carry on certain state property. Keeps things simple.
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Yep. I just thought that was an awfully bold admission on Rob's part. In some jurisdictions, categorizing an XM as a gravity knife would subject it to the laws governing automatic knives. In my State, for example, it would make it illegal for any ordinary (i.e., non-mil/LEO/EMT) citizen to carry an XM. It would also make it illegal for an out-of-state seller to ship XMs into this State.

I think I'll save Rob's post for future reference. ;)
 
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mjolnir74 said:
Thanks, it just seems to me that, realistically, at some point it would be very hard to withdraw the knife and deploy it with gloves that thick on. Much less being able to hold it and use it properly? Seems like if you're going into a situation where you know you might need a knife that a folder isn't the best option. I don't know, I'm not a firefighter. I do wear cryo gloves a lot and if I for some crazy reason needed to cut something while wearing those gloves a folder would come last. It's like trying to manipulate things through a pillow.
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I work ems and fixed blade knives are completely out of the question in terms of what is acceptable carry. If a patient is intoxicated or psychotic it's a lot easier for him to go for a fixed blade than a folder.
 
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