Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?

[Rolex John]

I find your claims dubious at best. Several? That claim by its very nature is so vague and ambiguous as to find it at its face value without merit.

Sounds like your own personal bias prevent you from considering the possibility that what I'm saying is 100% true.

I would surmise you still have an ax to grind.

Not an axe to grind. I just think I have relevant input to the question being asked in the topic of this thread. I've said and continue to say that the XM knives are great knives. But I think there are SOME number of XM buyers who have sold their knives based on how they've been treated by Rick and his crew - again, pertaining to the subject of this thread.

Simply having "several" emails from dissatisfied customers proves nothing other than there are, "several" dissatisfied customers. Hardly a indictment on their business practices.

It is when those customers are, by and large, dissatisfied with how one company representative in particularly has conducted himself.

And I would dare say you keep beating a dead horse to hear your opinions voiced all over again. Echo chambers work real well for that. Try it sometime.

I'd say you lack the wherewithal to engage in civil discussion without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Hopefully the moderators will intervene.

I hardly find your position one based on intellectual honesty but an obvious personal issue.

Are you accusing me of being dishonest or simply stating that intellectual honesty cannot exist in the presence of personal issues? Neither statement is true of course...I just like to be clear on which dead horse I'm beating.

In so much as the #'s of satisfied customers if you don't think it's in the thousands then what number would satisfy your ego? If your really think it needs verification then I can call RHK to get their position. Would that settle that matter? Probably not for that would not fit your narrative.

You made the accusation that I was making generalizations. My only point to questioning your stating "thousands of satisfied customers" is that you, by your own admission, don't really have a clue as to how many satisfied customers Hinderer has and were guilty of making generalizations. Seems rather hypocritical of you don't think?

If you would have spent even a little time in the Hinderer section on the USN you would have discovered how often they go out of their way to make things right.

I spent several months as a member of USN on the Hinderer forum there as well as the one here. This is just one of many examples of things you seem to want to talk about when you actually know nothing about. And for the record, I never claimed they don't try to make things right for their customers.

Personal for me? Not really. The Hinderers are and will do just fine. They don't need me defending them because I'm sure they really don't care one way or the other.

Again, incorrect. Rick responded for a while in this thread until it became clear he was digging a hole for himself:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...parison-The-Umnumzaan-vs-The-SnG-vs-The-XM-18

Obviously he cares. Obviously you're (again) wrong.

But as a casual observer you sure don't like being called out on your positions.

I don't mind it in the least. What I do mind is people misrepresenting my positions or facts to suit their personal agenda.

What say we take this back on topic? Quit while you're behind.

 

[ToddM]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Rick switched to a more conventional marketing plan and sold directly to the public at the current secondary-market prices.

Hard to say it would depend on supply and how many of their current direct sales are from guys reselling them for profit, those sales would be lost and if supply was good they'd also loose the exclusivity factor. If you don't link being limited is a HUGE marketing factor for knives right now you haven't seen the ridiculous secondary market prices for ZT limited and Spyderco sprints knives. More than I can ever remember knives are becoming a status symbol and fashion statement like watches. Exclusivity is big in that arena.

The secondary market prices are also kept higher because all authorized dealers charge 150+% of retail as well. I can think of no other production knife where authorized dealers do that so blatantly.

It started out good but this one has drifted too far off topic.

 

[mquez]

Well this thread made for a good long read!

I have had 2 Hinderer's witch i kept for about a year. Then realized It wasn't the knife for me and that I could sell them and get into something I would enjoy a lot more. Sold the First one to buy a Norseman and damn glad I did. I was going to keep the 2nd just so that I had a Hinderer in the collection but secondary prices on the Xm's are going down so wanted to get most of my money back (Still took a $200.00 loss). Will I own another XM in the future? Yes, I will if I can get one at MSRP Price!

 

[bld522]

I disagree. The xm18 had been the same price for 8 years. Eight! Everything is more expensive now than it was 8 years ago. I think Rick could charge at least 450 and still sell every one he makes. They are a steal at 385 considering what else is in the price point.

With all due respect, I'd say that's up to Rick to decide. But from my own personal perspective, I'd say they're worth about as much as comparable Sebenzas go for.

PS: Nice 3" XM-18 you picked up the other day. Congrats!

 

[Straight shooter]

No. You are wrong, yet again. I just find your credibility wanting. You post what you claim are facts and expect for everyone to take you at your word. I would say again it's your own self interest that drives your narrative. Your point about Rick, digging his own whole somehow validates anything? You have dug your own holes often enough on other forums and sub- forums so It is apparent you understand the bottom looking up perspective. Yes, I do know what I'm talking about contrary to your claim.

Now your statement goes from, "several". To the much more neutral, "some". How many? 2? 3? 4? No more verbal gymnastics and hiding behind nuances, John. Let's hear your contention and keep it to the, "topic at hand" as is your point. How many? You made the initial claim, let's hear it.

The "the dead horse" is the same one you have beaten in the past. You don't like Rob not because of this supposed emails but your own contentions with him on other forms. Would you like me to PM you links to the threads you caused Mods to close on other forums?

Again, I asked if you would like me to contact RHK and get better clarification? I would deem you answer, "non-responsive" due to lack of a verifiable position. And you thought your answer was clever?


Quit while I'm behind? Behind what? Is this Cliff Stamp?

Sure, let's get back on topic. I would say most who do get rid of them due to there ability at making a profit if they were able to secure them for table price. Most seem to go up only days after, lotteries, special editions, or giveaways.

Sounds like your own personal bias prevent you from considering the possibility that what I'm saying is 100% true.



Not an axe to grind. I just think I have relevant input to the question being asked in the topic of this thread. I've said and continue to say that the XM knives are great knives. But I think there are SOME number of XM buyers who have sold their knives based on how they've been treated by Rick and his crew - again, pertaining to the subject of this thread.



It is when those customers are, by and large, dissatisfied with how one company representative in particularly has conducted himself.



I'd say you lack the wherewithal to engage in civil discussion without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Hopefully the moderators will intervene.



Are you accusing me of being dishonest or simply stating that intellectual honesty cannot exist in the presence of personal issues? Neither statement is true of course...I just like to be clear on which dead horse I'm beating.




You made the accusation that I was making generalizations. My only point to questioning your stating "thousands of satisfied customers" is that you, by your own admission, don't really have a clue as to how many satisfied customers Hinderer has and were guilty of making generalizations. Seems rather hypocritical of you don't think?



I spent several months as a member of USN on the Hinderer forum there as well as the one here. This is just one of many examples of things you seem to want to talk about when you actually know nothing about. And for the record, I never claimed they don't try to make things right for their customers.



Again, incorrect. Rick responded for a while in this thread until it became clear he was digging a hole for himself:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...parison-The-Umnumzaan-vs-The-SnG-vs-The-XM-18

Obviously he cares. Obviously you're (again) wrong.



I don't mind it in the least. What I do mind is people misrepresenting my positions or facts to suit their personal agenda.

What say we take this back on topic? Quit while you're behind.

 

[nettles]

How do emt's order from "the ranch"? Do you have to know rick?

 

[Straight shooter]

How do emt's order from "the ranch"? Do you have to know rick?

Just email Rob Orlando. He will take care of you.

 

[nettles]

Just email Rob Orlando. He will take care of you.

Thanks! Where is his email?

 

[RevDevil]

Thanks! Where is his email?

All that information is clearly on their website, or you can search for his profile through the Hinderer Knives section of Bladeforums.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Can a mod please get rid of these discussions about whether or not Hinderer has great customer service.

The topic was "Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?"

The answers seem to range from, "I can make money by selling it," to "the knife didn't work for me," to "I didn't sell mine, I still have it."

That pretty much covers everything.

 

[gpo1956]

Just a quick question. If everyone is so pro "let the market drive the prices", then why does everyone on here immediately block the selling prices after a peice sells? If it was truly a market driven situation, then everyone would want the prices out there where they can be observed and noted to confirm market conditions. As an outsider looking in, with absolutlely no "skin in the game", the entire Hinderer business model appears to me to invite most of the criticism and controvery that seems to surround it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[olybears57]

I didn't like the weak detent for the flipper... I may have loved it as a non flipper though. May try again sometime.

 

[erdoc8921]

I just sold mine. It was a great knife. I might buy another one, but really, it was too much for what I normally do with knives. If I was a policeman or firefighter I would probably have kept it.

 

[bodog]

No, I got rid of mine for one reason, the detent was dangerously nonexistent and Rob's customer service made me sell it. That clearly falls out of your mold. It was most definitely Rob's attitude that turned me off as Rick was a super nice guy. I have a strong feeling that Rick knows that he would've fixed the problem but needed Rob to be the dick in the situation and tell me to pound sand because it's against their policy to make a 400 dollar knife's detent usable. It's not that the knife wasn't "for me." It's that it was a tool that had I used it for its intended purpose, it would've hurt me or someone else. If I'd bought an expensive bandsaw that turned out to have dangerous parts, I would have contacted the maker to see if they'd make it right. if they copped a dick attitude, I'd sell it just the same. I can't help it if others buy that expensive bandsaw to just look at it and that makes them happy. I buy tools to use and if they're dangerous then I don't use them and if I can sell it to someone else that wants that tool despite the warnings, then I'll sell mine to them. Being told by the company rep that they designed that tool to be dangerous and that I need to reread the policy posted on the website (that doesn't actually mention their supposed purposefully designed dangerous part) that says they won't fix the tool so it can be used safely in the environment for which that tool is designed, then yes, there's a problem. Either they're lying to their intended market, knowingly and willfully allowing a faulty product to go out on the premise that it was designed that way on purpose, or they're unwilling to fix a mistake. I'll let others decide which.

Imagine if a car manufacturer that had a good reputation for making tough, reliable cars for years started making their cars in a manner that made them dangerous on the road. Their current market generally buys the car as a museum piece because of the price, but certain people actually buy the car to drive and find that it's dangerous. The company tells them they made them to be museum pieces but still market that car as supremely road worthy. The people that wanted a great car would be pissed and would sell it to someone that wanted it as a museum piece and then warn others that it wasn't road worthy. And that company would honestly probably face a lawsuit. Telling their customers that actually expected a tough car that they designed that car to be dangerous and then refused to fix it based on a policy obviously designed back when the car was still made tough and dependable would piss anyone off.

Can a mod please get rid of these discussions about whether or not Hinderer has great customer service.

The topic was "Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?"

The answers seem to range from, "I can make money by selling it," to "the knife didn't work for me," to "I didn't sell mine, I still have it."

That pretty much covers everything.

 

[bld522]

Can a mod please get rid of these discussions about whether or not Hinderer has great customer service.

The topic was "Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?"

The answers seem to range from, "I can make money by selling it," to "the knife didn't work for me," to "I didn't sell mine, I still have it."

That pretty much covers everything.

Couldn't "poor customer service" be a legitimate reason for not keeping a knife?

 

[Morrow]

Can a mod please get rid of these discussions about whether or not Hinderer has great customer service.

The topic was "Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?"

The answers seem to range from, "I can make money by selling it," to "the knife didn't work for me," to "I didn't sell mine, I still have it."

That pretty much covers everything.

Why remove anything? As long as the conversation remains civil and on-topic it's highly unlikely we'd suppress an opinion.

Just a quick question. If everyone is so pro "let the market drive the prices", then why does everyone on here immediately block the selling prices after a peice sells? If it was truly a market driven situation, then everyone would want the prices out there where they can be observed and noted to confirm market conditions. As an outsider looking in, with absolutlely no "skin in the game", the entire Hinderer business model appears to me to invite most of the criticism and controvery that seems to surround it. Just my 2 cents.

It's the seller's prerogative to leave the price or remove it as stated in the FAQ. "Everyone" doesn't remove prices after something sells. Some leave the price, others do not. This has nothing to do with Hinderer Knives but is more of an overall site thing.

 

[Scurvy092]

I didn't like the weak detent for the flipper... I may have loved it as a non flipper though. May try again sometime.

No, I got rid of mine for one reason, the detent was dangerously nonexistent and Rob's customer service made me sell it.

I thought it was a well know fact that Hinderers are not made with strong detents. They are designed that way so you can shake the knife out quickly if the situation arises.

 

[Ken44]

I thought it was a well know fact that Hinderers are not made with strong detents. They are designed that way so you can shake the knife out quickly if the situation arises.

I did not know that.
I guess if the flipper or stud isn't fast enough you go to the shake opening system(SOS). What will they think of next.




I tried one in a pass around a few years ago and it's detent was in the medium range, and about the way I like it. That's the only one I've used.

 

[Rob Orlando]

No, I got rid of mine for one reason, the detent was dangerously nonexistent and Rob's customer service made me sell it. That clearly falls out of your mold. It was most definitely Rob's attitude that turned me off as Rick was a super nice guy. I have a strong feeling that Rick knows that he would've fixed the problem but needed Rob to be the dick in the situation and tell me to pound sand because it's against their policy to make a 400 dollar knife's detent usable. It's not that the knife wasn't "for me." It's that it was a tool that had I used it for its intended purpose, it would've hurt me or someone else. If I'd bought an expensive bandsaw that turned out to have dangerous parts, I would have contacted the maker to see if they'd make it right. if they copped a dick attitude, I'd sell it just the same. I can't help it if others buy that expensive bandsaw to just look at it and that makes them happy. I buy tools to use and if they're dangerous then I don't use them and if I can sell it to someone else that wants that tool despite the warnings, then I'll sell mine to them. Being told by the company rep that they designed that tool to be dangerous and that I need to reread the policy posted on the website (that doesn't actually mention their supposed purposefully designed dangerous part) that says they won't fix the tool so it can be used safely in the environment for which that tool is designed, then yes, there's a problem. Either they're lying to their intended market, knowingly and willfully allowing a faulty product to go out on the premise that it was designed that way on purpose, or they're unwilling to fix a mistake. I'll let others decide which.

Imagine if a car manufacturer that had a good reputation for making tough, reliable cars for years started making their cars in a manner that made them dangerous on the road. Their current market generally buys the car as a museum piece because of the price, but certain people actually buy the car to drive and find that it's dangerous. The company tells them they made them to be museum pieces but still market that car as supremely road worthy. The people that wanted a great car would be pissed and would sell it to someone that wanted it as a museum piece and then warn others that it wasn't road worthy. And that company would honestly probably face a lawsuit. Telling their customers that actually expected a tough car that they designed that car to be dangerous and then refused to fix it based on a policy obviously designed back when the car was still made tough and dependable would piss anyone off.

I don't sugar coat things, I don't make promises I can't keep, I don't beat around the bush, when I answer emails I get to the point. If stating facts to you regarding our policy on detents and standing behind my company's policy makes me a dick, then I guess I am. I have stated it publicly in our forums here and elsewhere on more than one occasion that XM folders do not have stiff flipper style detents. Rick designed the knife with 3 opening methods, flipper, thumbstud and inertia, a stiff detent will eliminate the inertia and possible the thumbstud for some folks and that is not how they were designed. So the spec that Rick has chosen is not for everyone, same goes with all knives out there, you either like the knife and it's features or you don't. I stated these same facts to you when answering your email, and you chose to not like the answer, that I can't control, our policies and methods with dealing with warranty and service I can. We stand behind every product we sell, but we don't offer carte blanche customization on request, these are production knives all built within the same perimeters and specs. You have a pretty dramatic pitch regarding safety and it hurting you or someone else, but it didn't stop you from selling the knife to someone. Apparently, the detent suited them just fine, we haven't had a detent related email in ages.

I am not going to get into a debate, I provided facts regarding Hinderer Knives policies regarding detents, and apparently it has been taken personally. If anyone has any questions or concerns for me drop me a line anytime, rob@rickhindererknives.com

 

[Scurvy092]

I did not know that.
I guess if the flipper or stud isn't fast enough you go to the shake opening system(SOS). What will they think of next.

What if you have on heavy gloves? The flipper and the studs might not be easily accessible that way.