Why is 13C26 better?

[Ebbtide]

We used to have a lot more manufacturer reps, and makers in this forum and for reasons like this mentioned above many have chosen not to come here anymore. I think we should fix that here personally. I would like to see everyone reading this think hard about this because I personally feel as others do here that many of those great industry professionals that have been run off by this behavior should be comfortable coming back to post in our threads again. We have here the biggest venue for knife topic discussion in the world. When you open your doors to the world you should welcome them when the manufacturer reps, and metal experts, as well as salesman for these companies come in not pick them apart to the point they regret ever coming by in the first place.

Well said.

 

[Jeff Clark]

I think that STR's observation that many makers and manufacturers have fled to knifeforums is true. They couldn't tolerate having their assertions questioned. Knifeforums protects the feelings and opinions of their advertisers. I seldom bother to go to knifeforums anymore. It is probably just a coincidence. I agree that there are some great guys over there. I still think forums are about open discussions, not just PC discussions.

We have to achieve a balance, but I like the balance here better.

 

[db]

Open discussion is what we all want. It can be done without harassing the person you disagree with. However there is no need for posters like Cliff who endlessly accuse people of spreading rumors, hype, being dishonest, and only trying to make money, or demanding proof of every little detail. Endlessly harassing and badgering them until they feel the need to just stop posting isn’t having an open forum to share ideas. There is no singular truth/best for everyone and demanding your way is the only and best way isn’t being open minded, you are still a sheep even if you think your in the front of the heard.
For example this thread. Is Kershaw really under hardening 13C and putting it in the wrong designed knives? Should 13c really only be used with a specific heat treatment and only be used in a specific narrowly tasked blade design, even though 13C isn’t the optimal steel for that specific design?
I think the answers can be both yes and no depending on what you want.

 

[hardheart]

I'd hate to see what would happen if Roman Landes got to speaking on the subject, Cliff was arguing the ability of D2 to take a decent cutting edge while Roman was saying that S30V couldn't get very sharp. There'd be a meltdown.

BF has an ignore function. Better than that, just say "I don't know." It's honest and not confrontational. It also works quite well from Cliff's perspective for anyone who didn't design the blades. There are quite a few people who never trust a salesman. I myself am just extremely wary of them in general, but do realize they have a job to do. I also know that neither a salesman nor a critic can force his opinion on me. I choose what to read, and what to do with the information if I have read it.

Thomas has his career, his specialties, and his interests in the realm of knives. If they don't intersect with certain questions being asked, he can't be faulted for not knowing. But to try and counter TTT curves, notch testing, whatever with 'this steel, at this thickness/grind/hardness still cuts stuff and hasn't been a warranty issue' is missing the point. The guys saying you can go thinner aren't saying the elu is getting a completely inferior product, but that the steel is capable of going thinner.

Some members hate liner locks. Some hate stainless. Some hate anything built outside the USA. Some hate certain companies. Most don't generate this much controversy; no matter how impolite their statements on the matter at hand. I guess we all need our own web sites to even the playing field.

 

[db]

Hardheart like this thread? http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3120511#post3120511

 

[Jeff Clark]

I don't think you realize that much of what keeps these discussions going is Cliff's inherant politeness. People respond to his statements or questions (often addressing him by name) and he always responds. Personally I would drop many of these discussions as unfruitful, but as long as you keep addressing Cliff he will respond. I think his mother raised him that way.

I also don't think you realize just how much ego some of these makers have. I once suggested that a surprise party not be organized openly on the forum since I heard from the surprisee that his daughter was going to get him set up to read Bladeforums. In reponse I got an angry note about the grand professional credentials of the guy who started the thread. A simple thanks-but-no-thanks reply is what I would expect from ordinary people. I'm not going to tone down my rhetoric to satisfy those standards. By the way, technically this is probably the knife maker that I would rate number 1 within what I consider his specialty.

 

[Kohai999]

I don't think you realize that much of what keeps these discussions going is Cliff's inherant politeness. People respond to his statements or questions (often addressing him by name) and he always responds. Personally I would drop many of these discussions as unfruitful, but as long as you keep addressing Cliff he will respond. I think his mother raised him that way.

Wrong-flat out wrong.

I have had Cliff ignore direct questions before, because he was smart enough to know that they were going to lead him to areas that he did not want to go.

Cliff does the same thing to other posters as well.

NEVER confuse politeness with arrogance, which you are obviously doing in this case.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Thomas W]

I mean look at all the wonderful things we have learned so far. We know we can't trust the manufacturer of the steel to tell us the real scoop. We know the manufacturer of the knives can't be trusted either so don't waste your time asking them any questions either. We certainly can't trust the salesman because we all know they are nothing but hype so forget that also. I guess you guys are on your own huh? Well, there is always Cliff.

It's interesting as some actually voiced and believe the above sarcasm by STR.

I have to wonder how any manufacturer should feel and respond when a thread of this nature is condensed to the above paragraph (seems the sarcasm is dripping with truth in this case).

In my mind, our (Kai) partaking here again has to be questioned, as our (and many talented others) knowledge and integrity has been put into a very harmful light. I also personally know the past has pushed many industry folks away from BF's for words comparable to those written within this thread. IMHO, if we could continue to hear from those MIA industry talents, the forum would be a much more informative and cohesive place, but regrettably we will almost certainly not be influenced by their presence in the future.

IMO when a maker or company representative chooses to participate on forums like these, they have to go at it with an attitude something like Sal's .... in fact it really surprises all the times I've seen makers/mfgrs. lose their composure, even knowing that how they present themselves online, if that's what they choose to do, is going to affect people's opinions about their products and companies.

DOW, as the folks that produce the product, we open ourselves up on these forums. We try to give you insight you would normally not hear, produce products you all scream for, and utilize materials that you all desire. We work hard just for one thing, customer satisfaction. We do realize that we will not be the name brand for everyone. I’m not sure what the objectives are with a few on this board, but I question that they have the best of intentions. We also have one hand tied behind our back when responding, and have to toe the company line, even when our feelings contradict our posts. Those that have lost their composure have left, and that is a shame. Neither the forumites or industry posters are always faultless, but we do have feelings and emotions, and those buttons can get pushed here, for reasons that I am at a loss for. As ones that donate our time here, we are not to be used as doormats, not even on one thread. If that happens, people have a tendency to move on.

Kai understands that there is wisdom and understanding that we have yet achieved, the growth and future of our products needs further advancement, and our ability to perfect will require more than a lifetime. Constructive and practical commentary is more than encouraged and embraced by the Kai Corp. I do feel though, that this is a fine line that can easily get crossed, and that type of interaction can become a bit of a thorn that is not easily accepted.
I do agree with Jeff that forum balance is important, and a group of regular cheerleaders is not always productive, but the opposite is just as true. If manufacturers need to justify their every move, well, there is just not the time or energy to put forth.

We do feel passionately about what we do, but this does not cloud our judgment when hearing from the public (the negative). Changes have been made because of those who have assisted in seeing details better than ourselves, and products have been altered and produced because of the advice and passion of the user. As a Japanese run corporation, I believe our tendencies flow from a more humble and helpful background rather than ego and chest thumping.
I can't put forth much credibility from those who question that we don't hear or act upon the less than desirable words, as the past has shown that this is not true. Some like to use this approach as a shield to hide behind, but critique and determined criticism are usually responded to quite differently. I'd like to think a bit of respect is in order around here, I certainly make an effort to provide it whenever possible. To be publicly tried and found guilty by even a few is truly unacceptable, and in my mind provides a hazardous road for industry folks to continue on.

The guys saying you can go thinner aren't saying the elu is getting a completely inferior product, but that the steel is capable of going thinner.

Hardheart, is that what “the guys” said? It would have been much more accepted by myself and others if they did, but the accusatory tone drowned out everything else. No offense, and excuse me, but I myself have to question “the guys” regularly.

Thomas has his career, his specialties, and his interests in the realm of knives. If they don't intersect with certain questions being asked, he can't be faulted for not knowing. But to try and counter TTT curves, notch testing, whatever with 'this steel, at this thickness/grind/hardness still cuts stuff and hasn't been a warranty issue' is missing the point.

Hardheart, I don't always post what I know, especially on doomed threads like these, please understand my knowledge goes beyond everything written. I had hoped that would have gone unsaid. This could become a full time job should one let it, of which I haven't the time. I have watched "the guys" on multiple threads go round and round, and come to little conclusion. I'm at the "why bother" point with them, as "the guys" seem to know it all already.

Sorry to go on here, but I was optimistic that BF's was a place, or could get to be a place, that we can all come together and pass around our cutlery knowledge and knife experiences, and make it a comfortable atmosphere to aid in growth our small community. At this time.......I'll get back to you.

 

[Jeff Clark]

Hi Thomas,

I hope that you can sift through all the rhetoric in this thread and glean some interesting marketing information.

1. There are quite a few of us who are really interested in 13C26. We wouldn't have got this thread started talking about 440A or AUS6.

2. Some of us are even more attracted if the 13C26 blade has a thin profile and is harder than is common for say, 12C27.

3. There is some confusing information about your 13C26 blade hardness floating around web retailer websites that might chase off some customers who are big on reading specs. This could be unfortunate since misinformation might chase away customers attracted by the 13C26 alloy.

4. You have users who care about your products and look forward to what you are doing. There are brands that seem to be sliding downhill, but that is not the perception of Kershaw. The brand has a good reputation.

5. You have users here who care about your feelings and reputation, not just what you can sell them. I think that your credibility and customer loyalty is helped by your involvement in Bladeforums. Your products will be discussed here regardless of whether you participate, your direct involvement shows that you care about the customers and that you have nothing to hide. Your involvement builds trust even when individuals are critical. Generally Bladeforums members are somewhat sophisticated in their ability to filter through claims and counter claims. For example I understand Cliff's argument and I plan on going out and buying one of your knives at my earliest opportunity (as long as it isn't serrated).

 

[JSR]

Thomas,

Jeff said it well above. I now feel bad for starting this thread as I didn't intend or expect it to get to this point. For future threads like these, I think it's best to not respond and let the thread die. I, along with many others, appreciate your involvement in BF and hope you stay.

JSR

 

[hardheart]

Hardheart, is that what “the guys” said? It would have been much more accepted by myself and others if they did, but the accusatory tone drowned out everything else. No offense, and excuse me, but I myself have to question “the guys” regularly.

Well, 'the guys' will question the knives, so it's only right to question them in turn. And if you believe that 'the guys' means Cliff alone, I would ask you to take another look at this thread, or some Toolshed posts by others who have sharpened a lot of metal from their blades to thin out the steel. Check out the pics and video of cutting through freestanding rolls of newsprint and cigarette paper, the chase for the toilet paper slicing edge, discussions of which sub-micron abrasive is liked the best. People, in the plural, want thin and stupid sharp blades-and 13C26 was made for thin blades.

Hardheart, I don't always post what I know, especially on doomed threads like these, please understand my knowledge goes beyond everything written. I had hoped that would have gone unsaid. This could become a full time job should one let it, of which I haven't the time. I have watched "the guys" on multiple threads go round and round, and come to little conclusion. I'm at the "why bother" point with them, as "the guys" seem to know it all already.

And this attitude helps no one at all. Why is the thread doomed, because you read something you didn't want to? Why don't you post what you know, especially when asked? How could this become a full time job? Which one of us can order you to sit in front of your computer and become a keyboard commando, holding the line against some imaginary coalition against Kershaw? The guys go round and round and come to little conclusion? Well then why do you even inject yourself into the pointless discussion? If you aren't capable of turning things around, then why fight the losing battles? Why cause yourself the unending grief that an internet message board is capable of thrusting upon an innocent poster? Why bother? Because you can, and because you want to.

If not, then don't.

Sorry to go on here, but I was optimistic that BF's was a place, or could get to be a place, that we can all come together and pass around our cutlery knowledge and knife experiences, and make it a comfortable atmosphere to aid in growth our small community. At this time.......I'll get back to you.

You do that. In the meantime, perhaps Sal will request some more input on that 13C26 sprint run blade.

 

[Kohai999]

just out of curiousity, would you mind saying how many knives you own? How many Kershaw knives?

In return, I will say I own hundreds of knives, and about 10-15 Kershaw knives off the top of my head.

As I have said before, Sal is an elder statesman. He carries himself like that, and really is a diplomatic person, but even he has his "difficult children"- like Brownshoe, proving that you cannot please everyone, and that even the best of diplomacy fails at times.

IF you spoke to Thomas in person, face-to-face, the way that you just responded up above, the results would be unpleasant. The condescension is inches thick, and Thomas would verbally hand you your ass.

That is the thing that bothers me about the internet, is the anonymity. Anyone, can say just about anything, and there is no test to prove knowledge or experience.

I use my name, in everything that I post, and have the certified bonafides to back up what I present as knowledge.

Do you? How do you use your knives, what experience do you have in the industry, have you ever sold knives for a living, or corresponded with real experts (BESIDES Cliff) to get answers to your questions?

Maybe you should publicly challenge a little less, and privately learn a little more.

Sorry, Thomas, but at least the challengers are dwindling, and the supporters are growing. Having an argument on the internet is like being drunk, once the buzz wears off, all you have left is a headache. I still think that it is a good thing that you are participating.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[hardheart]

just out of curiousity, would you mind saying how many knives you own? How many Kershaw knives?

I'm down to around 30 right now. Couple hundred over the last dozen years, constantly buying, selling, and trading. Cheapest were free, most expensive was a little over $700, if it matters. I currently own no Kershaws. Had a random task, vapor, and chive. Posted a couple years back about an issue I had noticed with, I believe it was 5, different speedsafe knives in the linerlock, plus a couple different QC probs with the RT. It is pretty much irrelevant how many I have owned, since I am not in this thread saying anything negative about the product, only mentioning what I would like to see done. I have in the past mentioned just how sharp every one of the Kershaws outside of the RT were OOB. I am waiting fo rthe JYDs to come out, and may get a Storm in the interim, though I have already mentioned I'm not really looking for a blade with a pronounced recurve.

In return, I will say I own hundreds of knives, and about 10-15 Kershaw knives off the top of my head.

We all have different tastes. And I myself have a hard time breaking a count of 50 at any one time, just not being able to justify for myself having that many at once. But we do as we wish and are able.

As I have said before, Sal is an elder statesman. He carries himself like that, and really is a diplomatic person, but even he has his "difficult children"- like Brownshoe, proving that you cannot please everyone, and that even the best of diplomacy fails at times.

I find brownshoe's actions in dealing with Spyderco to be distasteful and dishonest. If the man has so many problems with Spyderco, he should quite demanding to be compensated with more Spyderco knives.

IF you spoke to Thomas in person, face-to-face, the way that you just responded up above, the results would be unpleasant. The condescension is inches thick, and Thomas would verbally hand you your ass.

Possibly, but not from my own lack of effort. I try to be a nice guy, as nice as I can. So if and when I have to get antsy, people tend to not like it. I don't take issue with Kershaw's manufacturing. I don't take issue with arguments that stay focused. I take issue with the drama. I don't want to read posts where people say they're not sure they can post on a message board, that they can't handle the pressure, that words on a screen cause distress. Bladeforums is well-moderated and fairly even-tempered (outside of political). Cliff has plenty of detractors, he gets in arguments with people he uses as references. Tomorrow the sun will rise, the ocean will be salty, Cliff will argue a point with someone, and a hell of a lot of people who don't know what the hell Bladeforums is will buy a Kershaw-along with plenty who do. Getting worked up about it seems so wasteful and self-injurious.

That is the thing that bothers me about the internet, is the anonymity. Anyone, can say just about anything, and there is no test to prove knowledge or experience.

There's the rest of the internet. I love searching and gathering up bits of info. People who don't bother to inform themselves one way or the other aren't good customers anyway. The net doesn't corner the market on BS, either. totally OT-Just today I worked with a guy who got out of the Army on medical (asthma) He told me he was SF/Ranger and could do a 20K ruck with an 85 lb load, carrying a SAW, in 2 1/2 hours. He also did 90 minutes of work (the hardest being the pulling of some CAT-5 through conduit) and complained about how hot it was just after.

I use my name, in everything that I post, and have the certified bonafides to back up what I present as knowledge.

Yes, so do others.

Do you? How do you use your knives, what experience do you have in the industry, have you ever sold knives for a living, or corresponded with real experts (BESIDES Cliff) to get answers to your questions?

I present my ignorance. I ask questions and point to things I have read in my own search. I never claim to be expert in these matters, only to pass along info I have received. If it is wrong, then I am wrong for bringing it up. I say 13C26 can be ground thin. The fact that it is in razors just might support that. I read some of Verhoeven's stuff online, and the posts by Landes. I read the comments by Larrin, Washburn, checked out Stapel's site about his use. I've sold knives here, from my on collection, though I don't think that counts. The people I have dealt with know my name and address, they're the only ones who need to. I don't even ask people their names or introduce myself when in person. It just isn't important to me. I may have sold something sharp when I sold auto parts. To clarify in advance, selling auto parts didn't make me an ASE certified mechanic. Cliff answers a lot of questions, but I also look for answers from others, as I think I can understand a good bit about what he expects from his knives, and where he wants to see design and manufacture headed. I don't agree with it fully, and often need other input.

Maybe you should publicly challenge a little less, and privately learn a little more.

The challenge was to not complain about Cliff so much. Thomas should have much, much, much, much more important things to deal with at any point during any day. You and several others are willing to trade verbal blows with him, and there are plenty of posters who will follow NYgiantsfan's (hope I got that right, he doesn't use his real name) threads about Kershaw without asking why is one steel or another underhardened, mis-utilized, or anything else. Requests for another steel, handle material, color, or size would be about it, which I think is good. It's how we get stuff like the zdp Leek, or the upcoming Cyclone version.

Benchmade is my favorite manufacturer, and I could complain all day about the thick grinds on most of the old blades I had, the stupidity of trying to enforce MAP and cutting off New Graham, the use of aluminum in some of their handles when I absolutely detest it, not putting out an axis stryker, etc. I haven't even managed to talk myself out of owning BM knives, so I'm not good at challenging companies and changing minds.

I actually don't complain much about Kershaw because I don't have reason to. I haven't had enough of their knives. I'm not even complaining here. They have to heat treat for some mean level of skill in use which is probably well below any regular poster here-and I don't think even that level is all that amazingly high. They switched to a good steel which is also economical, great. They get it harder than the last one, also great. I'd like to see a thinner one, no biggie one way or the other. I might get the obsidian scalpel I found a couple days ago instead. On the other end, I'm still thinking about the 3V ZT fixed blade. Who knows, I just play around with the things, I could make it through the day with no problem with just my Leatherman.

Sorry, Thomas, but at least the challengers are dwindling, and the supporters are growing. Having an argument on the internet is like being drunk, once the buzz wears off, all you have left is a headache. I still think that it is a good thing that you are participating.

I really don't think the numbers between the two groups were ever really close enough to be concerned with.

 

[Kohai999]

Fair enough, and I see your points, and agree with most of them.

Sometimes you just have to put yourself in the point of reference of the other person. It is hard for Thomas, as it is for me, to take even one serious challenge, to person or business, without getting feathers ruffled. We are all flawed in one way, or another.

I like Benchmade a lot, myself, and have actually known Les DeAsis about two years longer than Thomas. The thing is, I feel in my heart, that Benchmade's glory days are past, and Kershaw's have not even really started yet. It is a matter of knowledge, commitment and intensity, as well as the people behind the machinery. Right now it looks like a lot of Benchmade's are offshore, while the opposite is presenting itself with Kershaw.

Learning to deal is not comfortable, but it is necessary.

.... On the other end, I'm still thinking about the 3V ZT fixed blade.

If you want to play around with it, I keep one as a desk knife, and would send it to you to thrash, should you so desire. It is a good one! Obviously, I would need an address, which you could PM, to send it to, but this is not a ploy, just an offering of cutlery afficianado to same to have a cheap thrill on my dime. I am not sure where the sheath is though, don't really care for it, and as Craig Green says, I could use it to carry a sleeping bag appropriate for my size(semi-inside joke).


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[hardheart]

I understand people having that fire in the belly and the willingness to take on all comers. It isn't always a flaw, and can be quite necessary in situations. BM does seem to be on the ebb for me as well, I have lately been waiting for them to come out with something different, rather than enjoying what I see in their lineup.

I appreciate the offer on the knife, but I have a crazy hangup about using cutlery that isn't mine. It even keeps me out of the passarounds. I get so concerned over the post office losing it, me breaking it in some random act of clumsiness, or even just marring the finish when I'm supposed to use the thing. I'm careful with other people's tools in general, even worried about damaging a hammer handle with my haphazard swinging. If someone lends me their property, I feel an obligation to take better care of it than my own stuff. I'd end up just staring at the thing and wiping it down with Tufcloth every hour.

Plus, if I really want to make use of a product, I feel I should compensate the manufacturer for putting it out there.

anyway, nudging back on topic-13C26 doesn't seem to have much of any serious critics, we're mostly happy to see it in production knives, I'd like to see it in more models (with thinner geometry)

 

[Thomas W]

Well, well, look at you two all playing nice like. That's sweet, a silver lining.

Hardheart, let’s see, I used a sorry, excuse me, threw in a no offense, and even shared my rare feelings, and you took me behind the woodshed? Sheesh, I need to start being more insensitive.

Darkside indeed.

Jeff, points taken.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Also, heat treating it to 59 vs 63 or 64 Rc means a lot usually with steel in one key area which is increased brittleness the harder you make it which in my mind anyway, is highly relevant.

This is actually false for a lot of steels, they get brittle as they are softened due to carbide precipitation, this even has a name "500F embrittlement". Even when it is true and steels gain toughness through drawing the temper it is not nearly as extreme as most makers/manufacturer claim. This is mainly an excuse because everything less than optimal softens steel and thus this is turned into a good thing. The only time you get a huge loss in toughness is when you temper so as to hit massive carbide precipitation. This is mainly an issue with HSS and the high molybdenum stainless steels which are often tempered high for hot hardness and you don't care about the loss in toughness as they are not used for such tasks anyway.

This should in fact have people screaming shenannigans at any claim of an issue with brittleness with 13C26 because ATS-34 was tempered to 60/61 HRC in the secondary hardening range by Bos for years and this leaves the steel far more brittle than the same hardness at the low temper. So there is no possible reason to even suggest 13C26 would be too brittle at 60/61 since it is inherently far tougher than ATS-34 with a low temper let alone the higher temper. When you underharden steels to make them tougher you have to give up performance in pretty much every area to such an extent you would be much better off with another steel which is inherently tougher. This is why there are so many steels. By chosing one which is inherently tougher you can then get a steel which is harder and tougher with the same wear resistance which is also cheaper to buy and grind all at the same time. In stainless steels they also get more stainless as well.

Also relevant is the loss in corrosion resistance at the higher hardness which as I understand it is part of the reason Sandvik recommended it be where it is being used by Kershaw. Correct me if I'm wrong

The same things that cause a loss in hardness will drop corrosion resistance as carbon and chromium are heavily interlinked. Note 12C27 at the same hardness Kershaw is running 13C26 is not only *much* more corrosion resistant (it has enough free chromium to even resist severe enviroments (dishwashers), see the paper kel_aa linked to which is a journal article on the subject of corrosion in cutlery steels and see where 13C26 and 12C27 fall), it is also much tougher, cheaper and just as strong.

Anyway, if the 13C26 steel is cheap as it has been reported, if it is tough even when thin at a higher hardness with excellent corrosion resistance why then is it not a good 'beater' steel?

I said it several times in the above, it was repeated by more than one individual, I showed how this exact perspective destroyed its reputation and you still ask. I'll give it one more shot.

13C26 is designed for near optimal for edge stability in a stainless steel. This means it excells in acute edges with a high polish. If however it is ground in obtuse edges it will perform poorly compared to high carbide steels because those profiles are inherently edge stable.

This is exactly why AEB-L indeed was disregarded for such a long time as a beater steel with low edge retention. No, it didn't have this reputation in european knives because they actually used it as it was designed. The common $5 sandvik knives in 12C27M are 58 HRC, and yes I checked (and not with the manufacturer of the knives) and this is indeed possible to achieve in a production setting at that cost.

But I also would like to get one from them, or any quality manufacturer, in the thinner edge profile right out of the box, because the steel can handle it.

Kind of odd that has to be specified.

Had that been done by Kershaw or anyone else someone would argue then that Kershaw went cheap ...

13C26 is a cheap steel, that isn't however a bad thing assuming the steel matches the performance requirements. Figure out what you want the knife to do well, pick the materials which are so designed. If you get better performance from a cheaper material then so much the better.

I think that STR's observation that many makers and manufacturers have fled to knifeforums is true. They couldn't tolerate having their assertions questioned.

That sounds like a great loss.

I'd hate to see what would happen if Roman Landes got to speaking on the subject ...

We argue all the time, I kept saying he was wrong when he first posted here and he just kept throwing data at me and explaining his position and eventually I figured out exactly what he was saying and in what context and realized that it was exactly the same thing Alvin said 15 years ago. Anyone who thinks scientists sit around all day agreeing with each other has never actually been in a lab. The actual fundamental defination of scientific conversation actually demands contention, faith has no role. Your job in such a conversation is precisely to tear apart the arguement to ensure it is actually valid. This is why it is presented to you. If this isn't the case then you are soapboxing. No one who actually has an arguement based on facts and logic complains when they are questioned, they spent quite a bit of time actually gathering all that information and they are in general far more demanding on themselves that you could every be anyway.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Ok, so Kershaw ran it first at 57-58 Rc. You mention they were underhardening it. They contact Sandvik and they upped the hardness to 59-60. You still apparently are not happy with this and said, "it could be refined further" as I recall. In another post you mention 'taken to optimal hardness' and then something about how you would like to see Spyderco do it in a grind more suitable. So get specific. What is it? Whats the number? Whats the optimal hardness you speak of. The number?

You later say the edge can be thinner when you mention Spyderco. When you say acute. How acute? Whats the number? How thin? Where would you like to see it before you would consider the 13C26 to be where it needs to be for maximizing the use of the steel in both hardness and grind/thinness?

Do you think that the difference in refining it from 60 to 61 Rc will be significant? This is while leaving the edge angle and thickness the same as they are now?

And if it was hardened to 63-64 Rc? Is that optimal Cliff? Where do we stop?

STR

 

[STR]

13C26 is designed for near optimal for edge stability in a stainless steel. This means it excells in acute edges with a high polish. If however it is ground in obtuse edges it will perform poorly compared to high carbide steels because those profiles are inherently edge stable.

You changed part of this when you edited before I could reply where you said in the last sentence, "congrats you have just made it AUS6A steel." Which was exactly what I was saying. Why change steels when if this one is at a more obtuse angle and the best blankable steel that is inexpensive can perform just like the beater steel I said it could function as? What you have is a steel that can be both the steel you say can be optimal and the one that can mimic a beater steel just like AUS6. Just as I stated. I see no reason for arguement there. It seems to me we are on the same page with that.

Its stable at higher hardness, with edge stability if thin. So why does this mean you can't have edge stability at a more obtuse angle also? Where is there anything written that says you can't or shouldn't put a high edge stability steel in a highly edge stable profile? I don't see why this is such a problem with you. So what? Yeah the steel can be made thinner and perform there too but as I've said before and you don't seem to get, it performs like the beater steel at the more obtuse edge and its working so why change it? It does both, can do both and the hardness its at is apparently fine for everyone.

However I, just like you want to maximize the use of it for a better balanced system in a folder. I just don't think there is much more benefit to be seen in a knife made for the masses taking it up to 61Rc from 60Rc its supposedly at now. How much more can that bring to the table? I'll certainly entertain the idea as I am sure Kershaw would if they thought there was any benefit from it.

BTW, I can tell from sharpening the Mora blades I have resharpened that they do not appear to be as hard as my older Storm at the lower hardness of 57-58. They seem a lot softer to me actually. Now the 12C27 blade I have from Thinus Herbst is quite hard by comparison.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Where would you like to see it before you would consider the 13C26 to be where it needs to be for maximizing the use of the steel in both hardness and grind/thinness?

Calypso Jr., edge 0.005"/10, with a slightly modified version of the heat treatment Sandvik shows for razor blades (780 HV, 62 HRC). The modification would be the addition of Lande's multiple cryo/tempering/quench to reduce the retained austenite to an absolute minimum. Of course the razor blade heat treatment is with specialized production equipment and most knife production can not handle the temperatures and specifically the time required for that cycle because the soak times are very small, < minute. Thus a more realistic desire would be a reduced austenizing temperature and 61/62 HRC.

The edge geometry would still be the same. If the knives were being made specifically for me I would switch to a hollow grind similar as on the Krein/U2 which gunmike1 is currently using. However I do see that in the future as a production grind and I will bet strongly that Spyderco will be the one to introduce the grind because they are willing to push on geometry and steel and they listen to criticism and user requests and I have seen a real increase in people describing more acute edge angles. In fact there are a number of things I think you will see in Spyderco blades in the near future such as dynamic balance focus on larger blades and grips designed from a force retention perspective.

Do you think that the difference in refining it from 60 to 61 Rc will be significant?

Consider some very simple math, how much of a difference is there between a 55 HRC "junk" blade and a 60 HRC "superior" knife, divide that by five and you have the difference one HRC point makes and yes you see the same increase if you keep going. A 65 HRC knife will make the 60 HRC one look just as bad as the 60 does to the 55 HRC. This again isn't the nonsense you have been fed which is 60 HRC is "good enough" and that knives get super brittle when they are harder.

Now again to clearify, heat treatment isn't all about hardness, but hardness is a critical part of knife performance. It is directly a measure of how hard the edge is to dent and it influences wear resistance and burr formation. Specifically, harder steels are easier to grind to a very high sharpness, especially in acute edges. The main reason that you use oil/cold and multiple tempers isn't really to get the hardness as much as it is to stop the things which also reduce the hardness such as carbide precipitation and austenite retention.

This is while leaving the edge angle and thickness the same as they are now?

If you are leaving the edge angle and thickness high then it doesn't really matter because the steel is poor there for reasons I already noted. This comparison by the way was already performed, in some detail, on rec.knives over ten years ago. Alvin Johnson, a knifemaker, studied materials texts to determine what steels should be used to make cutting tools and how to harden them. He then took very simple steels like 1095, 50100-B, etc., and rehardened them to maximize their edge stability and compared them to a knife ground by Engnath and heat treated by Paul Bos.

Those simple steels easily outperformed the 60/61 HRC ATS-34 but only when the edges were very acute and thin. When they were thick and obtuse then you don't see the advantage of the edge stability of the simple steels and you end up with a wear resistance comparison and the wear resistance is actually fairly low because they have no carbide volume. The high carbide steels actually have several times the wear resistance of the simple alloys, the high vanadium ones are even higher still so if that comes into the comparison then they dominate strongly.

Why change steels when if this one is at a more obtuse angle and the best blankable steel that is inexpensive can perform just like the beater steel I said it could function as?

I said it several times STR, I even provided specific detail as to why an inherently tougher steel is superior than an underhardened steel. I even noted a published paper to show you the extreme benefit of the increase in corrosion resistance which would be obtained by using 12C27M - which was a problem Thomas admitted was an issue with their 13C26.

Where is there anything written that says you can't or shouldn't put a high edge stability steel in a highly edge stable profile?

Yes STR it is written in the defination of edge stability. It would be like suggesting S7 for use in a fillet knife. You don't choose a steel which is optomized for a property you don't need because steels are allways a compromise. You always have to give up something to get that performance and if you don't need it then why did you make that compromise.

Now maybe you could argue that Kershaw can't use higher carbide steels because they are too expensive however there are some very inexpensive knives using such steels. The Byrd steel for example is along the same tie line and gives up edge stability for wear resistance, AUS-10A does the same thing again to a greater extent.

I can tell from sharpening the Mora blades I have resharpened that they do not appear to be as hard as my older Storm at the lower hardness of 57-58.

All production knives have significant variances in hardness, even the rather high end ones. A number of people have had S30V knives rehardened and even though they are spec'ed at 59/60 HRC they actually test as low as 55 HRC. I have noticed this with the S30V knives I own. With similar edge angles some knives will take damage much easier and are significantly behind in edge retention. Note again clearly, the softer ones get damaged easier.

Since the Mora knives are much cheaper you would expect a wider variance. This is often why some people regard them well in regards to edge retention but some people do not. It is very likely that some are using 56/58 HRC knives and other groups are using 50/52 HRC blades. Again as I have noted, everything you do less than optimal tends to soften knives. This is one of the reasons you as a user should want a higher hardness because in practical reality you are likely to get one which is softer.

But you know the great thing which came out of this, well several things actually. A number of people in the above have clearly shown they understand the exact benefit of edge stability which is great and Spyderco has shown an interest in making a knife from 13C26 and will very likely make one which well showcases the steel. Now hopefully Kershaw will come out with a large fixed blade in L6 at 56/58 HRC so I can note that if you are running it at that hardness then bainite would be optimal. This will result in a 6 page thread where Thomas makes many implications about my lack of knowledge and bias and how it has to be right because everyone uses martensitic L6 and general assertions are made about me slithering here and there and anyone who agrees with me is a newbie/pinhead and finally Glesser steps in and actually discusses the issue and Spyderco makes a bainite L6 parang.

-Cliff