Why is 13C26 better?

Thanks. Truthfully I can't really comment much on brittleness in the ZDP189 steel except to say I have owned some blades of it yes. I have read that even at the hardness its at around 64Rc that it is not reportedly brittle though and that is really all I know on that one. I do still currently have one TiZDP189 Leek that I did use some to see what I thought of it right after getting it but certainly not as a beater. The knives I have kept with blades of ZDP189 steel ended up so collectible that I don't use them enough to really even let the use show on the knives in fact so no, you would not recall hearing me complain about brittleness there since they haven't been used enough to even know the answer to the brittleness question if it were asked of me. Yes you are correct in that I would not put any of the ZDP blades I own in the class of a beater just for the highly collectible value they have and the price point of the folders when I bought them which was usually way late by the time they spiked in price. Most of these (had I kept them) are worth more now than when I bought them just because they were always done in limited quantity runs. 13C26 is not even in the same category of a 'collector' or highly sought after steel by efficinados to my knowledge.

Anyway, if the 13C26 steel is cheap as it has been reported, if it is tough even when thin at a higher hardness with excellent corrosion resistance why then is it not a good 'beater' steel? Something isn't adding up to me here particularly when you look at where it is being applied in the market. Everything I read says it is a good steel for the applications I see it being used in by Kershaw and the EKA knives as well as other Swedish knives I've seen it used in. All of which are relatively cheap beater priced knives by the way usually never any more than $50 US if that.

STR
 
STR, I wasn't stressing on the economic considerations and such of using a [ZDP189] knife. My point the material properties have an impact in its use, that one ideally shouldn't use a more brittle material the same what that one would use a less brittle material.

Anyway, if the 13C26 steel is cheap as it has been reported, if it is tough even when thin at a higher hardness with excellent corrosion resistance why then is it not a good 'beater' steel?
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I think one of the arguments is that there are even cheaper steels for such a purpose such as 12C27, 12C27M, and pressumably Aus6A, 420HC.
 
by using price as a determinant of how a blade should be used, you would call disposable scalpels beaters and Busses would not be. It isn't the price, it's the performance. How long can you beat on a scalpel, how about a Battle Mistress? Look at a high quality straight razor, as 13C26 was designed for razors. Is it cheap? Is the design one that you would classify as a beater? Are we closer to a scalpel or a heavy chopper?

For me, a beater is a knife that I could use without much concern for it's survivability of that use. Now, that could be because the knife is so cheap that if it doesn't survive I can easily replace it, or it can be because the knife is stout enough to survive. You seem to suggest similar criteria, so now let's look at how that relates to 13C26. First, price. The steel makes for a cheaper knife. Less alloying elements and fine blankable. So hey, it could be put into a beater, because a cheap enough knife can be beaten upon without worrying your wallet. But should one's concern lie with your wallet, or with the ability to finish the job safely and with the tools intact?

Next, maybe we can say 'ruggedness'. 13C26 was not designed with the focus on being rugged (deal with impacts, I would put forth), it was designed for use with a delicate edge profile for delicate work. What kind of impacts are expected with proper use of a razor? But, steel being steel, if you make it thicker, you make it more rugged. But again, why use 13C26 if you're just going to make it thicker? There's no performance advantage, you would in fact do better with a coarser steel at thicker measures because the large carbides would do your slicing for you.

So, I'd say 13C26 is probably economical enough that you could do whatever you want with it-but at a certain point it isn't even worth telling your customer that it's 13C26, because the function of that particular composition is overwhelmed by the geometry and you could do the same thing with some other steel with no performance loss. It's not that the Kershaw designs are poor, or that the steel is bad, it's that there is possibly more edge performance from 13C26 than what we see in these models.

I might just get one and have it reground, and I do at least appreciate that Kershaw is mass producing a blade that gives me this opportunity. But I also would like to get one from them, or any quality manufacturer, in the thinner edge profile right out of the box, because the steel can handle it.
 
hardheart said:
So, I'd say 13C26 is probably economical enough that you could do whatever you want with it-but at a certain point it isn't even worth telling your customer that it's 13C26, because the function of that particular composition is overwhelmed by the geometry and you could do the same thing with some other steel with no performance loss. It's not that the Kershaw designs are poor, or that the steel is bad, it's that there is possibly more edge performance from 13C26 than what we see in these models.

I might just get one and have it reground, and I do at least appreciate that Kershaw is mass producing a blade that gives me this opportunity. But I also would like to get one from them, or any quality manufacturer, in the thinner edge profile right out of the box, because the steel can handle it.
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Before you run out and have your new 13C26 Kershaw reground, it MAY be possible that Kershaw already plans to grind certain models to a different degree. THAT would be a good question for Thomas.

As for using 420M or AUS6, from a marketing standpoint, that does not make a lot of sense. Nothing wrong with it, but from where I sit in the industry,(even though it is an "older" steel) 13C26 has more marketing appeal to the retailer, am even referencing the experienced, knowledgeable retailers, who like to try out "new" steels vs. "old" steels. Not in the way the Cliff, Thom Brogan, Vivi or STR would try them out, but just to carry, use in daily chores...

When ZDP came out in production knives, I was lucky enough to get a William Henry Paring knife. It takes a keen edge, and holds it for a VERY long time, but my experience has shown it to be stain prone, not rust prone. That is with reasonable care, too. The point I am making is, you don't know until you use it!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I recommend getting one. I just ordered the Storm I in combo edge from Newgraham yesterday because I want to see if I like the 3" blade better than my II.

You know the argument that there are better choices for blade steel could be made for just about any production knife out there regardless of the steel currently being used for the blade. Why a steel is used or not used could mean any number of things to any number of people as we have seen here in our debate but the real question that should be asked is if it is working or not where it is being used now.

The question was asked of me earlier today privately that was something like, "how come your Storm (and most everyone else’s) are not experiencing the lack of performance Cliff said it should?" I don't know man. Maybe the knife is so cheap that people that don't like it don't care to write about it when they have a problem even though Kershaw's warranty is second to none, or maybe they are not having problems with it to report them in the first place. Gee could it be?

I guess we'll never know. I mean look at all the wonderful things we have learned so far. We know we can't trust the manufacturer of the steel to tell us the real scoop. We know the manufacturer of the knives can't be trusted either so don't waste your time asking them any questions either. We certainly can't trust the salesman because we all know they are nothing but hype so forget that also. I guess you guys are on your own huh? Well, there is always Cliff. I guess you read them all till you are blue in the face and make up your own mind. (please note that this is all sarcasm and not my personal feelings.)

Regardless of the science (which I do appreciate as much as anyone by the way) and regardless of what anyone says, the question of if it works or not, (relative as it has been claimed to be by some) should be the real bottom line to any user of a cutlery tool. Does it cut when you need it to or not? I can't answer that for you. Spend $30 and find out for yourself if the steel meets your needs or not since no one can be trusted to tell you the real scoop. Don't bother writing about what you find out from your experiences with it though because no one will believe it anyway. (Sorry, a little sarcasm. I could not resist.)

STR
 
Kohai999 said:
When ZDP came out in production knives, I was lucky enough to get a William Henry Paring knife. It takes a keen edge, and holds it for a VERY long time, but my experience has shown it to be stain prone, not rust prone. That is with reasonable care, too. The point I am making is, you don't know until you use it!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Nothing quite like "real world" testing.

Doesn't matter if it's ZDP, BG, 13C26 or unobtanium 7. Something ALWAYS comes up that we didn't anticipate.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Nothing quite like "real world" testing.

Doesn't matter if it's ZDP, BG, 13C26 or unobtanium 7. Something ALWAYS comes up that we didn't anticipate.

sal
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Sal,

I'm all for testing, and the harder the better.

I do value Cliff's testing, but do not find value in the WAY that he presents certain things. I can certainly see that there is value in what he does for your purposes.

I wrote a post a while ago, in General, impressing the importance of having a STRONG idea of what an individual would be doing with the knife that they wanted to buy, and looking past the advertising and salesmanship, and handling the knife in a brick-and-mortar store BEFORE making the plunge.

I still believe that is the best way to buy a knife, especially if it is in your plans to see "moderately" hard use with it. Survival tool use, you can't really duplicate until you are "there".;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Is it safe to assume that no one in this thread has even used a 13C26 knife at the harder RC hardness? If so it seems that alot of assumtions and second hand info are presented as facts in 99% of this thread.
 
I just bought a Kershaw ET at the factory sale this weekend. It has a 13C26 blade and it's new so it should be hardened at the higher temp. I was saving it for christmas, but I may see what it can do in real life sooner. If I do, I'll let you know. Of course, my tests are not scientific.
 
db said:
Is it safe to assume that no one in this thread has even used a 13C26 knife at the harder RC hardness? If so it seems that alot of assumtions and second hand info are presented as facts in 99% of this thread.
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I've used it up to 61 Rc.
 
unobtanium??
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Is that similar to 'handwavium?' :D

I imagine a little unobtanium and handwavium in the blade would fix things right up and make it all better yes.

STR
 
Sorry, to clear up my last post, I was refering to the hardness, heat treatment, and profile of a 13c26 knife that Cliff is promoting, not Kershaws current knives.
Larrin any thoughts on the RC 61 blade you'd care to share with us?
 
db said:
Sorry, to clear up my last post, I was refering to the hardness, heat treatment, and profile of a 13c26 knife that Cliff is promoting, not Kershaws current knives.
Larrin any thoughts on the RC 61 blade you'd care to share with us?
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My father and I have used several AEB-L knives, as well as damascus using AEB-L, and heard many reports back from others that have used knives with AEB-L or AEB-L damascus. All reports must be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but all report a lot of the same things (including me): it held an edge well, and it was very easy to sharpen. I haven't heard much about toughness, other than Phil Wilson, who said that in his rudimentary testing of its toughness, was very impressed. We have a thinly ground kitchen knife in AEB-L, around 60-61 Rc, and even though we put the thing through the dishwasher and drop it in the sink, etc., its tip is still intact, and it doesn't have any rust or pitting. We have several Murray Carter kitchen knives, and the tips on those haven't fared so well. IMO, there are few steels as good overall as AEB-L, especially as far as ease of maintenance: no rust in most environments, and the easiest to sharpen stainless steel I've ever used. On top of that, the stuff is very tough for a stainless steel, and nearly matches 154CM in edge retention.
 
STR said:
The question was asked of me earlier today privately that was something like, "how come your Storm (and most everyone else’s) are not experiencing the lack of performance Cliff said it should?" I don't know man. Maybe the knife is so cheap that people that don't like it don't care to write about it when they have a problem even though Kershaw's warranty is second to none, or maybe they are not having problems with it to report them in the first place. Gee could it be?
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I think you have to first define performance. For the knife to simply hold an edge and not fall apart is one thing, but to take it down to true razor blade dimensions and have it work is another. It's like using S5 in a folder and just having the knife work at general utility is saying the steel performs. Sure it cuts like a knife, but you haven't taken advantage of the toughness of the steel-where it 'performs'. In a similar manner, 13C26 is used in razors, which make most folder grinds look like doorstops in comparison. I'm quite sure the current knives hold up, but that's not making this steel in particular 'perform'. If for something like the Leek the switch from 440A to 13C26 gives us an extra 3 points on the Rc and similar corrosion resistance and such for the same costs, then that is a performance gain-but it's a different measure of performance. Being able to take a 13C26 blade down to 1/4 the thickness behind the edge compared to the old steel would be like beating on an S5 blade without worry when the old steel would fracture on you.

It just depends on what you're looking for.
 
I agree. I don't think the point was ever to make a razor blade thin knife. Not quite that thin anyway.

As for the arguement that there are cheaper steels to use. Had that been done by Kershaw or anyone else someone would argue then that Kershaw went cheap like they did when we saw all the complaints about AUS4 starting to show up in blades with comments like, "there are better steels to use so why did they use that one?" We'd have complaints about how companies are going to cheaper steels instead of praise that they went with a better one which is what I'd have expected to hear from half the people here rather than recommending a cheaper one to them. Seems some just can't be satisfied.

STR
 
I think it is quite clear that while Cliff is vocal about the intrinsic nature of different steels, has also acknowledged the issues not intrinsic to the material itself as being a factor in the choices made. There are people who will complaints about AUS4 being "cheap", but it hasn't come from Cliff, and he has pointed out revelant material properties and other arguments when such complaints are made. I don't think you can accuse him of being on both sides of the fence on these issues.
 
AUS4 was just an example.

As for my previous post about what we have all learned where I mentioned we cannot trust the maker of the steel, the manufacturer, or the salesmen. Please know that is not the way I feel at all. I am a lifetime salesman myself from a professional career selling dental supplies and equipment. I made a good living off of building trust with my customers and knowing what I was doing and what I was promoting and selling.

I was simply being sarcastic in that post based on other remarks made here in this thread. I feel if you cannot trust the manufacturer, the maker you deal with, or even the salesman that you have developed a relationship with that you should not be posting that publically at all but take those type of discussions to a private venue. We have PMs for that kind of debate. If you must post about mistakes you can make an effort to bring attention to them indirectly while still showing genuine interest and appreciation along with respect for those that help to make this industry tick. At least that is my opinion on when and how to be critical in a 'nicer way.'

These guys representing the knife companies in the industry that do still post here go out of their way to try to come here and give us much valued input and information, new product updates and even share their own personal feelings with us and get to know us. I personally think a bit more respect should be shown to them instead of chasing them off so they don't wish to participate here any longer because of being backed into a corner and pressured every time they make a statement on these forums. Being overly critical can get old and this thread should probably have been locked back at page six or so (again my opinion only).

Most of these company and sales representatives work for a fine company with a fine reputation to live up to. They do not come here hoping to post information that is faulty or set things up so they feel later like they have to safe face. I think its inappropriate and uncaring to instill that in people personally. Again it is how you say things and not what is said that can be improved on.

We used to have a lot more manufacturer reps, and makers in this forum and for reasons like this mentioned above many have chosen not to come here anymore. I think we should fix that here personally. I would like to see everyone reading this think hard about this because I personally feel as others do here that many of those great industry professionals that have been run off by this behavior should be comfortable coming back to post in our threads again. We have here the biggest venue for knife topic discussion in the world. When you open your doors to the world you should welcome them when the manufacturer reps, and metal experts, as well as salesman for these companies come in not pick them apart to the point they regret ever coming by in the first place.

STR
 
STR said:
We used to have a lot more manufacturer reps, and makers in this forum and for reasons like this mentioned above many have chosen not to come here anymore. I think we should fix that here personally. I would like to see everyone reading this think hard about this because I personally feel as others do here that many of those great industry professionals that have been run off by this behavior should be comfortable coming back to post in our threads again. We have here the biggest venue for knife topic discussion in the world. When you open your doors to the world you should welcome them when the manufacturer reps, and metal experts, as well as salesman for these companies come in not pick them apart to the point they regret ever coming by in the first place.
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I guess this begs the question, STR, how would you suggest that mfgr. reps, makers and others from the industry be encouraged to contribute, while at the same time allowing forum members to ask some hard questions? Honestly I'd hate to see BFC become like knifeforums.

IMO when a maker or company representative chooses to participate on forums like these, they have to go at it with an attitude something like Sal's .... in fact it really surprises all the times I've seen makers/mfgrs. lose their composure, even knowing that how they present themselves online, if that's what they choose to do, is going to affect people's opinions about their products and companies.

I certainly agree, this could be valuable input, but you have to allow the forum to act as a means for sorting out the earnest players from the BS artists. Probably means walking a fine line sometimes, or people swallowing their pride and keeping check on the testosterone and adrenaline.
 
STR said:
We used to have a lot more manufacturer reps, and makers in this forum and for reasons like this mentioned above many have chosen not to come here anymore. I think we should fix that here personally.
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I think the ones who were here and left fixed that issue themselves. TSDevanna has thick skin; Thomas W has thick skin; Sal Glesser has adamantium skin; Jerry Busse has JWB which is good enough.
 
Unfortunately few have the high tolerance we have grown used to in Sal. I think it is safe to say he is in the minority and not your typical run of the mill owner/designer/cutlery pro. For lack of better descriptions. How is genius? That too. :D

It isn't so much what you say at times but how you say it that can change a reaction or interpretation on these public forums. How you present a sale can either move the product or crash the whole deal so to speak.

I find it sad that it is easier for some in the industry to just avoid our great forum rather than come here and join in. I know they do this because I hear from more than a couple privately about some of what is going on here. Many times something I didn't even know about until a link was referred to me. They read the threads but they learned a long time ago that they can't come here and say anything without being attacked and having every single word and phrase picked apart surgically and used against them. Is that the way we really want it?

I am not sure what you are referring to on the KF. I've been a moderator there for a few years and love it there as much as here. As for how to fix it. I'm not asking for much. Just show some respect. Is that so hard for some? I mean these guys are valuable to us. We should be able to hear from them all.


STR
 
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