Why is 13C26 better?

[gunmike1]

I'd like to see a 13C26 sprint run of either the Centofante III or Dragonfly. That is assuming we're talking about a hard enough blade. The Centofante would let us see the steel in a really thin hollow grind and allow a comparison with VG-10. The Dragonfly would let us see a comparison with AUS-8 and a flat ground blade. They are both very respectable gentleman's knives with thin edges.

Those look like 2 prime candidates, but I'd like to see the hollow raised up even more on the Centofante, though that would bring it into the Spyderhole area weakening the blade. Still, given the inteded purpose it wouldn't bother me, as a 15 degree included knife wouldn't be my prybar of choice anyway. I guess testing would reveal if the blade would break before the pivot by thinning it out through the hole, but again I would only want it for precision cutting.
The FRN Dragonfly at 1.5 oz. would also seem an ideal knife for 13C26 with a really thin edge. It looks like the ergos on that little guy would fit my mitts good, given the choil and handle shape.

 

[hardheart]

Would raising the hollow into the hole really cause strength issues? I mean there are fully flat ground spyders, so the stock thickness reduces through the hole on those. I do agree though, I would like to see the hollow brought up higher on the Centofante, maybe the 4.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I do not see Kershaw as locked in like this to where they will not accept critisism, nor Thomas.

His posts in the above actually reflect that to you?

I find this to be a shame with the ones that do because some of the most astute and accurate observations and suggestions I have ever recieved or read here and on other forums have come from end line users and guys that know nothing about making knives but know enough to see an area that needs work.

Such reactions are simply salesmen defending a product, it is their job. If someone comes to your door selling cutco knives would you fault them for not accepting that they would be better off buying your knives than what they propose.

If Spyderco were to do an experimental spring run with 13C26, as you suggest, what type of knife design (folder/fixed,size,thickness,etc) would be best for this steel and what, in your opinion would be the optimal hardness and grind?

13C26 is an easy steel to design for because it is made to do one thing really well (ok two things but one doesn't matter for design purposes) and pretty much doesn't care about anything else. That one thing is edge stability. This means the focus on the knife is one which utilizes the ability to take a very high polish at very low angles and keep the edge in that condition well. So :

... a very thin & lightweight FRN handled gentlemans type folder, 2.5-3" blade, with a very high and thin hollow grind or flat grind, and 7-8 degree per side edge, and an edge under .010" thick at the top of the bevel.

The only refinement would be that 0.010" is a bit high, there are existing Spyderco's which are thinner. I would aim for about < 0.005" or so. This is where David Boye generally runs his knives so it is perfectly reasonable for a production folder.

I would also suggest a small fixed blade. Something which would work well as a paring knife for the kitchen, excell at fine wood craft and general precison cutting. Again the focus would be the ease and extent of obtaining a very high initial push cutting sharpness, not the ability to work for a long period of time at a low/coarse finish.

The knife could in fact be sold on this basis alone, appeal to the elite mentality "Are your sharpening skills/methods above average, do you sharpen blades when they don't push cut paper well, etc...." Ok, that is pretty crappy add copy but you get the idea.

This is an elite level steel which has a narrow focus, the other Sandivk steels like 12C27M are more general use as they are tougher and more corrosion resistant. That steel would be ideal for example in the "beater" bushcraft role where the knife takes a lot of impacts, is used to replace a large chopper by batoning etc. .

In regards to heat treatment, the focus isn't on hardness (ok that is kind of ironic considering), but you will get the hardness if you do the right things anyway. The main considerations are to prevent any secondary carbide precipitation and retained austenite, well limit them anyway as you can't prevent them in an absolute sense.

This means use of oil/salt as a quenchant, and several cycles of cold treatments and a low temper followed by a water quench. How much of this is possible from a cost perspective is an issue. The first thing to go would be to reduce from multiple to one cold/tempers followed by the water quench.

If you have to go further then you are essentially buying a high quality steak and microwaving it. It isn't going to show what it can do. I'd suggest if that had to be the case then look for a simpler blade shape / handle material, etc., or raise the price of the knife to allow the optimal heat treatment.

No need at all for an overbuilt frame to support it ...

Yeah, you don't really want the handle to suggest prying type uses.

Somewhere out there must be a distributor with bad information about the 13C26 blades.

In some cases it seems obvious that they have kept the hardness from previous steels.

... so when people go after Thomas/Kershaw with less than basic respect

Criticising a design does not show lack of respect, however suggesting that statements or claims from manufacturers should be dealt with from a faith perspective is not only completely absurd but it also shows a lack of respect for the ability and knowledge of the people who offer such commentary.

As for a difference in responce, again a smokescreen. I for example have been every critical of Spyderco's products in the past. Far more demanding than simply noting a product was not optimal. The most recent was comments given toward the scandinavian grind Spyderco is offering in one of their knives because that is an absurd grind to use on a knife which isn't $5.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

His posts in the above actually reflect that to you?

Cliff. Thomas addressed the issue with you regarding the heat treatment question how many times now? What I see is that you are not satisfied with his answers or reaction. It appears that when Thomas refuses to satisfy you with the responses you want you begin to exert pressure on him by picking apart other reactions and comments he made trying to get his reponse to change or something. Saying his comments are vaque is one thing, but to state they are 'meaningless' is a bit, well, mean for lack of a better word, perhaps inaccurate is a better one. I'd take that personally if it were me, among other things said by you and don't feel his reaction to the replies/comments you made would be much different than my own to you. Accepting critisism is one thing but beating a dead horse is another. You have made your point I think and so did Thomas.

I've been very critical with Thomas in private for example about some things regarding Kershaw products that I saw and evaluated and he has been nothing but understanding, polite and even when he disagreed with me, we moved on after stating our point of view even when I maintained the conversation a bit longer than perhaps was necessary to get the point across.

13C26 is an easy steel to design for

Oh really? Could have fooled me with that one Cliff. Apparently it is not so easy or this thread would have ended before it started. Seriously, I think Thomas has stated they do what they do for reasons and that it seems to be working fine for the masses. You say yourself in repsonse to Sal's question its a steel for the elite at the level of heat treatment you are talking about. I doubt the steel would be performing as well in the hands of the general public if Kershaw did their heat treatment any differently than what has been done.. Especially when you consider the price point of the knives being made and the fact that they will end up in the hands of the working man. I think putting your heat treatment idea into practice in a knife geared torward the masses would be nothing short of a recipe for warranty nightmare replacements due to problems with the blades. No one is going to treat the knife any differently than any other beater they buy for the same price.

You lost me on that Cutco knife scenario.

EDIT: for content and spelling.

STR

 

[M Wadel]

sal: maybe a big chopper in 12c27 or 12c27m.

ive used my ss moras (kj ericsson) this week for prying stuff apart, some knife-throwing (eeh non work related.. the knife always lands on concrete), cutting thick electrical cable (with a hammer on the spine of course), making holes in metal containers etc, the usual stuff. and it never chips, i love it. i really like this type of steel because it takes an enormous amount of punishment before breaking. a real user type of ss, nothing fancy, just tough ss.

 

[JayAndersson]

sal: maybe a big chopper in 12c27 or 12c27m.

ive used my ss moras (kj ericsson) this week for prying stuff apart, some knife-throwing (eeh non work related.. the knife always lands on concrete), cutting thick electrical cable (with a hammer on the spine of course), making holes in metal containers etc, the usual stuff. and it never chips, i love it. i really like this type of steel because it takes an enormous amount of punishment before breaking. a real user type of ss, nothing fancy, just tough ss.

Sliding of topic, but I'll chance it. When the 12C27Mod is mentioned here is almost always when discussing Mora and Frost knives. But did you know that this grade is used a lot in nothern europe as a knife-steel for butchers? It holds the edge well, but more importantly it can handle abuse and with only a 30 second touch up on the walk between the workstation and the lunch room the egde is razor sharp again. 12C27 used to be the preferred grade but they moved to 12C27Mod. For ease of sharpening, toughness and corrosion resistance.

I agree, for a big Chopper the Mod is a good grade.

Being swedish I have some experience with the Sandvik steels and I like them. I have 7 Moras, 1 Frost, 1 Opinel, 1 EKA (2 soon I think). So now I want a US made Kershaw to see if they are as good as they look.

//Jay

 

[madfast]

How about a very thin & lightweight FRN handled gentlemans type folder, 2.5-3" blade, with a very high and thin hollow grind or flat grind, and 7-8 degree per side edge, and an edge under .010" thick at the top of the bevel. I have borrowed Cliff's modified Fallkniven U2 (much thinner and more acute than I mentioned), and it cuts like a dream, sharpens on a 15 degree microbevel instantly, and is a great cutting tool. Of course, as a manufacturer you would then end up with people chipping the edge if they try to use it for hard twisting cuts, but the light construction and gentleman's design hopefully would lead more ELU's to use it as intended, a great precision cutter. Don't ask me about heat treating, as I know nothing, but I know I would buy a Spyderco design like that for a light duty EDC.

hoping the ELU uses it as intended and it actually happening are 2 totally different things...

 

[db]

another vote for a very thin ground Dragonfly.

 

[Joshua J.]

Thomas, I think it would be very helpful if someone would change the numbers on the Kershaw Steel Comparison Chart to the HRC that you are actually aiming for. The numbers that are up there right now got me really worried in the past, it would be very comforting to know the actual hardness of all the steel types you use. Not to mention some retailers are using those numbers in their description of your knives.

 

[gunmike1]

hoping the ELU uses it as intended and it actually happening are 2 totally different things...

That is why I mentioned an edge bevel so thick (comparatively), instead of the <.005" Cliff suggested (which I would prefer after using a couple knives with that edge thickness, they just perform). Maybe if there was a disclaimer included, like hardheart mentioned about the tip of the Civilian, that Spyderco won't cover the idiocy of a ELU trying to use a precision cutter as a prybar would help reduce problems with undue warrantee issues. That is also why I mentioned very light construction, so the knife's construction would discourage prying use and hopefully keep ELU's in check to use the knife as intended. Like Cliff mentioned though, this is the type of knife that would more appeal to the afficianado, who would be willing to pay extra for a superthin knife with a great heat treatment in a steel that will take and hold a great, thin, polished edge, and would use it as intended. I know I would love to see Sal & co. build a knife like this, whether or not a business case can be made for it is another matter.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Saying his comments are vaque is one thing, but to state they are 'meaningless' is a bit, well, mean for lack of a better word, perhaps inaccurate is a better one.

It is without meaning to reply "We are taking the standard approach... " for reasons I have noted. Here is an actual answer to the same question I asked another blade manufacturer recently and I specifically requested for a public release :

"Our blades are hardened to Rc62 by the best possible method for each of the two alloys we use: O1/O2 ("high carbon") or A2. The A2 is cryogenically treated for longest possible edge retention but we don't bother with cryo for the simpler high carbon steel because it quenches fully in the first place."

I followed this with an email which asked for further details, specifically the manner of the quench and the tempering temperature and duration/cycling, because again "best possible method" is meaningless because you have not defined the judgement criteria.

This is no different STR if you asked someone how they cooked a steak and they said "Best possible method.". Everyone says that, what do you expect a manufacturer to say "We use the worse possible method we could come up with."

I've been very critical with Thomas in private ...

There is no audience in in private conversations. The two are not comparable.

I doubt the steel would be performing as well in the hands of the general public if Kershaw did their heat treatment any differently than what has been done.

All you can state is that their performance is at the same level than the lowest product made which has not been criticised. As I said before, you have to consider the discrimination ability of the evaluation and take into account effects such as EDCeeker has noted in the above.

I think putting your heat treatment idea into practice in a knife geared torward the masses would be nothing short of a recipe for warranty nightmare replacements due to problems with the blades. No one is going to treat the knife any differently than any other beater they buy for the same price.

If Kershaw wants to make beaters then that is why Sandvik makes 12C27M. I suggested Spyderco months ago specifically because they have several very focused cutting knives and they actually use the steels in optimal configurations in those blades. 13C26 isn't a beater steel, it is a steel designed for razor blades.

There is also really no need to be concerned about 13C26 being ultra-brittle. It is inherently still much tougher than high carbide fraction steels like ATS-34. Considering how Spyderco is using ZDP-189 it is obvious that 13C26 would not be a warrenty issue with toughness.

Note as well that while the profiles I have noted may seen extreme, Boye has been using them on dendretic materials for quite some time and they are actually very soft and very brittle. There are little complaints about them in regards to durability because he is clear on what he has made them to do.

sal: maybe a big chopper in 12c27 or 12c27m.

They are making a bushcraft knife so it seems natural to make a parang. They should put out a small line, call them "SpyderCraft" or something. A small carving blade, a medium sized robust utility (impact splitting/chopping), a medium length pseudo-chopper (enough for 1-2" poles), and a short (12") parang.

-Cliff

 

[knarfeng]

Sooooooo Sal,

I ain't Cliff. But, could I add a vote for a Delica in this Wunder Stahl?
Most of us have Delicas in one steel or another and it would give us a basis of comparison.

Thanks, no matter what design you choose to offer.

 

[Tim Galyean]

This is no different STR if you asked someone how they cooked a steak and they said "Best possible method.".-Cliff

Let me guess.....you like your steak well done.

 

[Thomas W]

Well heck, this thread has just been more than exhausting for me, and continues to be.

I guess I will start with Dog of War, first I would like to apologize for not addressing your earlier request directly.
I thought you had backed off from your appeal, so I let it go.

Interesting contrast in the way spokesmen for two different companies view feedback from the ELU and interact with the users on these forums.

I&#8217;m not sure what I have done to not be interacting the way you had hoped, and I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else for that matter.
Since my return to the forums I have tried to answer most every request (I&#8217;m pretty fricken busy, and am not a forum moderator).
I have donated knives for passarounds
Have privately interacted positively with multiple members.
I opened up the Kershaw information door for all you to see.
The upcoming TI/ZDP Cyclone will be done up via my request, due to this forum.
I have taken time away from my job and family to interact with everyone here (my wife is pissy right now due to me selling knives since 5:30 am today, and at it again all weekend).
Hell, I left the warehouse sale to check the forums today to make sure there were no Kershaw fires to put out.
A Kershaw BF&#8217;s sub forum was agreed upon internally because I pushed for it, but every time I&#8217;m ready to do it, there seems to be thread that makes me think twice (thus no forum as of yet).

I&#8217;m not sure as an executive of Kai USA what more you want from me, but I give all I have. If you all want to be able to say whatever you want, and not have me express myself with how I truly feel or not at all ( best interest for Kai), then all this time and energy I donate is for nothing. Sometimes we as the manufacturer are not going to drop our drawers for every request from a public forum, I really trust that you all understand this.

Again Dog of War, I&#8217;m sorry if you are upset with me, because it is important to me that people within this community progress in a positive way.

Cliff I know you don&#8217;t know who I am, or have any idea of my background, and certainly you have interacted with people in the knife industry larger than I.
What I would like to say to you Cliff is that I have worked in the knife industry for the last 22 years, specifically I have supported a family via a single income during this time period. From retail, to catalog companies, to wholesalers, to multiple manufactures I have worked my tail off. I know this industry up and down, and it more than fries me when my integrity gets questioned. Sal Glesser had a great influence in my life for many a year, and he left it all on the table for me to learn from. I won&#8217;t even mention the other talented people I have gathered my experience from, as Sal&#8217;s education should more than speak for itself. Please try to remember all this the next time you question me.

What I would like Cliff, is to get along with you. I understand we have had differences in this thread (and another similar one), and am unsure if we will come to any sort of harmony with 13C26. Not that I disagree with some of the HT suggestions and data you have brought up, but I just am unsure if you understand what a manufacturer can and can&#8217;t do with that information. Can 13C26 get heat treated in such a way to get to a couple of points harder, yes Cliff it can. Are the knives and geometry within each knife we produce perfect for 13C26, probably not by your definition? You must understand though Cliff, it is not practical for a manufacturer to take every pattern on the table and match it up with its most optimal steel. It is just not going to happen, there are just to many variables. As others have said, compromises have to occur. If you haven&#8217;t been around volume manufacturing this is difficult to recognize or even accept, but unlike others, we try to offer the finest under the parameters that is put under us as a volume mover. I&#8217;m not sure if this is information that validates your earlier posts and makes you feel better Cliff, but hopefully it will get us both to a healthier place.

What Jeff's trying to point out is some (many? most?) resellers of your product are advertising hardness' lower than that--sometimes much lower. You can hardly blame people for not knowing you're hardening it to 59-60 when there are "product brochures" all over the 'net that say something different, can you? (I don't know what your own web site says, as I'm unable to navigate past the front page.)

I don&#8217;t blame them EDC, we have done a bad job keeping folks up to date with our HT evolvement concerning 13C26.

The new Kai USA website should be up by Christmas, and it will have updated spec&#8217;s.

 

[STR]

This is no different STR if you asked someone how they cooked a steak and they said "Best possible method.". Everyone says that, what do you expect a manufacturer to say "We use the worse possible method we could come up with."

Sure it is. If you ask the cook how he did it you will get the kind of detail you want Cliff. But when you ask the manager of the restaraunt the question and not the cook you get the answer given. You ask the right questions to the wrong person. If it were Buck knives we were talking about I'd tell you that you asked Chuck Buck the question you should have asked Paul Bos. You got the only answer the manager could give you what more could you possibly expect?

If Kershaw wants to make beaters then that is why Sandvik makes 12C27M. I suggested Spyderco months ago specifically because they have several very focused cutting knives and they actually use the steels in optimal configurations in those blades. 13C26 isn't a beater steel, it is a steel designed for razor blades

Again here I have to disagree with you. A $30 to $75 knife is generally a beater. In fact to some up to a $150 knife is. This is where the steel is being used. Why Sandvik makes these various steels is because they work in many applications. Both are good and no one is arguing that. 13C26 seems to be more versatile to me. You say it isn't a beater steel. I say it may be one of the best beater steels to have come along in a long time. I think it is a beater steel by definition.

For example, a razor blade is typically used for scraping off inspection stickers, grunge jobs and general contracting utility blades for jobs like taking out old caulking from an old window, cutting up linoleum flooring, carpeting, and various other tough 'beater' jobs on a daily basis besides being used for delicate shaving and other health care jobs where its fine grain super push cutting edge is appreciated. It is a cheap easily replaced steel by definition. We have determined in our discussions here that 12C27 and 13C26 are cheaper than 154CM, a steel often seen in heavy duty tactical 'beater upper' knives like combat, and other tough use folders on the market. In my mind it fits the bill quite well for a beater steel but can also with a slightly different heat treatment fit the bill of a higher class of steel from the sounds of it. From all I've read its an everything steel so to speak all in one package, which sounds like a great beater upper all around steel to me.

STR

 

[Joshua J.]

Originally posted by Thomas W

The new Kai USA website should be up by Christmas, and it will have updated spec’s.

Thank you. I’ll be looking forward to it.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Whew. Many layers of cummunication here.

For what it's worth, I've known Thomas for many years. He loves knives, he's honorable and he's always been a straight shooter.

I must say that I applaud Kershaw for their "experimentation" with the "odd & unusual" steels. No doubt the influence of Ken, Thomas and Tim. This is a difficult and inconvenient departure for a knife company and more often than not a PITA.

Back to the steel;

Cliff, Regarding the salt quenching. Are you referring to Marquench? 59/60?

Regading a Spyderco 13C27 model, If we were to do something, we wouldn't make it as a beater, for all of the reasons mentioned.. It would be a short run "afi" piece for the "steel junky".

Hey STR,

Wouldn't the very thin edge and grind make it less useable as a "beater"?

sal

 

[EDCeeker]

Well heck, this thread has just been more than exhausting for me, and continues to be.

Sorry to hear that Thomas. Sincerely.

Since my return to the forums I have ... [a bunch of cool things for BF's membership] ...
I'm not sure as an executive of Kai USA what more you want from me, but I give all I have.

Hell, Thomas, I appreciate seeing a manufacturer's representative just being around, much less all that.

I don’t blame them EDC, we have done a bad job keeping folks up to date with our HT evolvement concerning 13C26.

Not lookin' to assign blame, Thomas, just trying to clarify Jeff's point and suggest a solution.

The new Kai USA website should be up by Christmas, and it will have updated spec’s.

Excellent! (I hope y'all did away with all that damn Macromedia Flash content.)

Being responsible for the technical aspects of a corporate we site, myself, I know how content can often end-up neglected. Despite our living in a wired world these days, management often seems unwilling to dedicate the needed resources. Kershaw is most certainly not alone in this.

 

[Dog of War]

Well heck, this thread has just been more than exhausting for me, and continues to be.

I guess I will start with Dog of War, first I would like to apologize for not addressing your earlier request directly.
I thought you had backed off from your appeal, so I let it go.

No apology necessary, but accepted nonetheless. And I hope you'll accept my apology if I offended in any way.

I'm not sure what appeal you mean, unless it was my offer to do some edge retention testing on Kershaw's 13C26. I thought the offer might take the discussion in a positive direction, and frankly having recently "discovered" the Swedish steels I'm hoping to do some work with 13C26 soon.

Some might say I've gone over to the dark side, but I just find trying to be systematic and being able to produce quantified results really helps me in evaluating and optimizing my own knives. This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate or respect others opinions when they state generally that, e.g., customer feedback on a product has been largely positive, or when a seemingly experienced individual reports good performance without going further into any specifics. It's just that that kind of information isn't as useful or meaningful to me as when someone says, for example, that a certain blade cut 20% more rope or whatever work they were doing than did another knife before showing a certain degree of loss of sharpness. And of course edge retention is just one aspect of blade performance.

Interesting contrast in the way spokesmen for two different companies view feedback from the ELU and interact with the users on these forums.

I’m not sure what I have done to not be interacting the way you had hoped, and I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else for that matter.
Since my return to the forums I have tried to answer most every request (I’m pretty fricken busy, and am not a forum moderator).

I haven't followed your activities here much but gathered from your announcement a couple months ago that you were taking leave from BFC that you were tired of the contention that sometimes flares up here. So I was surprised to see you back, and caught up in a bit of a fracas once again. I also found it kind of interesting, amusing even, when Sal joined in and asked Cliff, who you were having the primary disagreement in this thread with, about his thoughts for a sprint run of Spydercos using 13C26 .... is that not quite a contrast?

I'm not upset with you at all, Thomas .... one standard I live by is that expectations are just premeditated resentments, and so try to keep expectations to a minimum. Well I do expect a certain level of respect be extended to me and everyone, but online I have no control over that other than a thick skin.

One thing I had kind of a problem with that you posted was this:

I'm gonna say it again, I'll take the positive and supportive words of our customers and the majority of 13C26 affirmative posters on this forum, over the minute minority.
I have confidence with those on the board that they report what they experience, and believe them when they say the 13C26 Kershaw Knives they use have been positive.

The ELU is not looking to make an impression with me by lying about the performance of their knife! Please, let's give the members here more credit than that. I know STR speaks the truth about 13C26, and is not swayed by a presence here on BF's, and I honestly believe alittle_edgy when he spoke up about his 13C26 incident. Heck he liked it (13C26) so much, he went out and bought additional Kershaw products for himself and his gal (thanks edgy).

These and so many other real world occurrences confirm with me that we are working 13C26 accurately, and it is translating into satisfaction with those folks that carry our knives everyday.

To me that sort of read as though you reject non-positive comments, for example experiences such as kel-aa's. Reading what you've posted now I doubt that to be the case, but those were some pretty surprising comments to read from someone representing a manufacturer.

Personally I'd like to see it sorted out. I'd like to see Kershaw's current production 13C26 tested, first for hardness then in actual work. Because kel_aa is the only one I've seen post in any detail his experience with Kershaw's 13C26 I have to attach weight to it .... I don't know what it means when somebody says a blade gets screaming sharp or cuts like a menopausal witch, to them it may mean something very different than it would to me. To me it sounded like you were blowing off kel-aa's experience as .... well, as not positive and therefore not something you felt worth considering. But again I think you've answered that and I apologize if that mistaken impression colored my comments.

 

[STR]

Sal Glesser
Hey STR
Wouldn't the very thin edge and grind make it less useable as a "beater"?

I would hope so for the sake of the manufacturer. Many guys carry and use those little Super knives or other type stanley blade knives with thin disposable blades in them. Walk in any Wal-Mart Hardware isle or in Lowes and Sears and you can see the latest influx of these pocket clip style pocket knives that use these very thin blades designed to sell to the working man. These blades cut like razors and for all I know are made out of a Sandvik style or class of steel. Some guys only want a thin knife that is cheap for a beater. Seems like walking out on a bit of a limb to me to think thin will keep it from being used that way.Hopefully the steel in question is up to the task in the off chance one or more are used that way though.

It may depend more on the price point of the knife, the way its marketed and more than that the style of blade that is decided on. If you make it a utility blade shape that is much loved by the working man with a lot of straight edge you never know what you will see a knife being used for. Something small like the Dragonfly is a good safe bet. A Delica or Endura in limited numbers if marketed as you plan would probably work or a CJ but a lot of guys work those knives as daily beaters for tough jobs so it may backfire unless the steel can take it when that hard.

I am biased in asking for a flat grind Delica. Its just something I've always wanted to see from you so its probably a bad idea for this steel hardened as Cliff would like to see. On the other hand, I have guys send me their Dozier Thorn knives and Calypso Jrs to resharpen or reprofile that use them on the job (construction) all the time and they are very thin grind folders I'd put in the gents folder arena. Then there are others that carry and use a CQC12 for similar work. Go figure. I often wonder about some of the Cuda Maxx knives I get in from guys that use them the same way and carry them in states and cities they are highly illegal in let alone practical.

You just can't predict what any folder will be used for regardless of how well you plan it out. I see a lot of repair work in my shop and get a first hand view of what folders look like when used daily by other than knife nuts. The stuff I post here and do for myself is just the fun stuff. Most of the Kabar referral, and other forum repair work I get is just small stuff not worth the time to document with scans and posts about it. No one would read it anyway. What is their to say about a pivot pin replacement or tip reprofile?

STR