I'd have to agree price is a bigger beater factore than the grind.. All of my beaters are very thin or have been thinned by me. I have found that a thin beater is alot more useful than a thicker grind even for a beater knife. It's amazing what a very thin edge/grind knife can really do.
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Why is 13C26 better?
- Thread starter JSR
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Exactly db. One knife that I have retipped a lot or given a 'tanto' tip to for it's owner to make thicker is the Yojimbo. Although it is certainly not alone. I resharpen nicks out of thin blades used as beaters a lot also and also thicken the bevel to make them stronger and more obtuse for the owners or put micro bevels on them.
Although this Yojimbo folder was sold for the MBC and defense crowd many guys saw that blade shape and thought immediately that it was a big Stanley blade made just for them and went for it. Even though it was priced high some still bought it for that blade they were already familar with. The thought that this one was not disposable did not occur to them apparently. Usually when I see these Yojis they look something like this pic here on this link from another post I made. Sometimes its requested that I redo them to a point like I was preparing here in the pencil line or like this pic here where it is more 'tanto' style. As I recall this was done while removing caulk sealer from a window sill when the tip caught a hidden nail head lurking beneath it unseen to the user. I have lost count of how many Yojimbos have been here to have a new point put on them or how many S30V blades have had to have chips taken out of the edges for guys using them as 'beaters."
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61490&d=1161465336
STR
Although this Yojimbo folder was sold for the MBC and defense crowd many guys saw that blade shape and thought immediately that it was a big Stanley blade made just for them and went for it. Even though it was priced high some still bought it for that blade they were already familar with. The thought that this one was not disposable did not occur to them apparently. Usually when I see these Yojis they look something like this pic here on this link from another post I made. Sometimes its requested that I redo them to a point like I was preparing here in the pencil line or like this pic here where it is more 'tanto' style. As I recall this was done while removing caulk sealer from a window sill when the tip caught a hidden nail head lurking beneath it unseen to the user. I have lost count of how many Yojimbos have been here to have a new point put on them or how many S30V blades have had to have chips taken out of the edges for guys using them as 'beaters."
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61490&d=1161465336
STR
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handle shape would be a big influence. I know it goes against the general Spyderco design philosophy, and some people might not like it-but if you kept the handle small and maybe just a little slick, no choils and such-people would be far less likely to abuse it.
SAKs main blades get used for a variety of work, and look at the handle shape and the fact that most do not lock, so I wouldn't say there would be a safety concern for any sensible user. Beyond an outright disclaimer that 'if you use this knife too hard it will break', the handle shape could say 'if you use this knife too hard you might hurt yourself'
SAKs main blades get used for a variety of work, and look at the handle shape and the fact that most do not lock, so I wouldn't say there would be a safety concern for any sensible user. Beyond an outright disclaimer that 'if you use this knife too hard it will break', the handle shape could say 'if you use this knife too hard you might hurt yourself'
i have found a new (well its probably been around for years) steel from uddeholm.
STAVAX/POLMAX (one of them is an ESR steel (electroslag remelt i guess), (the 2 got the same composition tho) C-0,38 Si-0,9 Mn-0,5 Cr-13,6 V-0,3. ultimate tensile strenght 2050 N/mm2 @ 52hrc. max as quenched hardness is
57+-2 ( @ aus temp 1050°C, maybe 59 with oilquench..)
tempering: temp at 470C (when austenized at 1050C) will give 55hrc (retained astenite should be somewhere between 4-8% ´im guessing tho since i can only see data (retained austenite data that is) for a lower austenizing temp, 1030C)
and some cryo on that and you got 57-58 hrc or so on the finished blade (another guess from my side)
i bet this steel is "tough as nails". what do you guys think?
like a 12c27m but even tougher
STAVAX/POLMAX (one of them is an ESR steel (electroslag remelt i guess), (the 2 got the same composition tho) C-0,38 Si-0,9 Mn-0,5 Cr-13,6 V-0,3. ultimate tensile strenght 2050 N/mm2 @ 52hrc. max as quenched hardness is
57+-2 ( @ aus temp 1050°C, maybe 59 with oilquench..)
tempering: temp at 470C (when austenized at 1050C) will give 55hrc (retained astenite should be somewhere between 4-8% ´im guessing tho since i can only see data (retained austenite data that is) for a lower austenizing temp, 1030C)
and some cryo on that and you got 57-58 hrc or so on the finished blade (another guess from my side)
i bet this steel is "tough as nails". what do you guys think?
like a 12c27m but even tougher
for ease of machining and polishing i think, its mostly used for making tools for pressing cd´s iirc
Cliff Stamp
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Thomas, this seems to be a stopping point to you so I will clearify it in detail. It is fundamental that the arguement is never evaluated on the merits of the speaker. I don't respond to what you write, I respond to what is written.
The only time the speaker would present himself as the arguement would be when the audience is so ignorant that they are incapable of understanding the details of the arguement. I am sure you would never suggest that any readers of this forum would be so characterized.
Thomas, I am well aware of the influence of compromise. It is always the case that money and time restrict academic research. There is always better equipment you could buy, more expensive materials to work with, more support staff, etc. . It is also often the case that someone else will not be so constrained and that is life . You produce the best you can with what you have available. Knowledge, imagination and desire will go a long way.
Generally they know the details, but if they don't then they will ask the cook. The above details on heat treating I cited were not from the person who did the heat treating, it was from a representative of the company. They just asked for the information requested. You really think that Thomas never checks with others at Kershaw for details on questions he is asked?
The steel isn't designed to do that STR. The razor blades you are talking about are not made out of 13C26 because it would be an absurd steel for that application. It would be like making a fillet knife out of S7. It you wanted to use a sandvik steel for that then you would use the higher carbon steel because what you are describing is highly dependent on wear resistance.
Yes, these are all air hardening steels (sandvik stainless) so you don't need to fully quench them to room temperature to avoid the diffusion reactions. However you want to cool them down to the Ms point quickly because when they are very hot they will precipitate chromium carbide along the grain boundries and this will deplete the chromium and carbon in the steel so it will reduce the hardness and the corrosion resistance and weakens the grain boundries which will make it more prone to edge damage and as well less efficient in sharpening.
This by the way isn't something which is inherent for those steels, it happens to all stainless (and similar alloyed tool steels). It will just be noticed more in these steels because of how they are typically used which is in very acute profiles at a high polish. If you have obtuse / coarse edges then you tend to see mainly the wear resistance so if the steel has lots of carbides then you will be fine regardless. Plus, such steels are inherently brittle anyway so no one really expects much of them in that regard.
They are generally simple carbon steels with a very basic heat treatment. No one expect much of them besides the fact that they are very sharp initially. I have worked with, and literally seen thousands of such blades worn dull, broken and quickly replaced. They are $0.25 or so and almost no one resharpens them.
Recently higher performance ones are available, some are HSS and are much more suitable for the type of work you noted because the wear resistance is many times greater and the individuals don't want ultimate sharpness they want to work for a long time with a decently sharp edge.
-Cliff
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Cliff. In conclusion to this discussion for me, as I too grow tired of it. You said that 13C26 is a razor blade steel. I see others use and I use razor blades for all the above things I mentioned. That is all I can state. As to the steel these are made of. I don't know that you know for a fact that some of the blades we are using are not made of that steel. For all I know it is and that you are just guessing that it is something else.
No Cliff. Again. What I see is a request, no make that a demand on your part for specific quality and quantity of information in a specialty. When you want that kind of detailed specifics about a specialty it deserves to be asked of the source. When I see a maker doing a particular thing or technique I go straight to the maker for the questions not his wife, confidant or co worker unless he simply cannot or will not give me an audience.
Of course Thomas is knowledgeable, as is Sal and myself, and many others. Of course we check with others and they check daily with their people. That was never my point. In order to satisfy the need for this information and the detail you want it is not only less strain on relationships to go to the source rather than try to repeatedly get it from a second or third party but a better way to satisfy the need rather than recieve it second hand, translated, interpretted, or as the case may be mistranslated or misinterpretted where you end up then sharing information that was in err down the road because someone only thought they heard or understood something about what was said. That is all I was pointing out. You get very specific and you often times take what you learn and share it elsewhere. For this reason and more the information should be first hand when at all possible.
Otherwise its been real. I appreciate everyones input here.
STR
No Cliff. Again. What I see is a request, no make that a demand on your part for specific quality and quantity of information in a specialty. When you want that kind of detailed specifics about a specialty it deserves to be asked of the source. When I see a maker doing a particular thing or technique I go straight to the maker for the questions not his wife, confidant or co worker unless he simply cannot or will not give me an audience.
Of course Thomas is knowledgeable, as is Sal and myself, and many others. Of course we check with others and they check daily with their people. That was never my point. In order to satisfy the need for this information and the detail you want it is not only less strain on relationships to go to the source rather than try to repeatedly get it from a second or third party but a better way to satisfy the need rather than recieve it second hand, translated, interpretted, or as the case may be mistranslated or misinterpretted where you end up then sharing information that was in err down the road because someone only thought they heard or understood something about what was said. That is all I was pointing out. You get very specific and you often times take what you learn and share it elsewhere. For this reason and more the information should be first hand when at all possible.
Otherwise its been real. I appreciate everyones input here.
STR
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Larrin, when you say "it" is the 'it' you are referring to the 13C26 or is 'it' the other steels Cliff mentioned. I forget what he called it.
Again specifics help. All this talk of 'cheap' vs expensive steel, what it was designed for and mention of razor blades made me think, ok, cheap, disposable razor blades and since the topic is 13C26 I naturally put the two together.
STR
Again specifics help. All this talk of 'cheap' vs expensive steel, what it was designed for and mention of razor blades made me think, ok, cheap, disposable razor blades and since the topic is 13C26 I naturally put the two together.
STR
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So then my guess that a 13C26 class of steel is being used in cheap disposable razor blades and utility blades is correct from the sound of things. That sounds like a 'beater' steel to me for sure then and certainly a good choice for a sound everyday carry knife as well as a genral utility steel.
STR
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STR - can't vouch for how accurate all this is, but here's one description of AEB-L:
http://www.devinthomas.com/pages/faq.html
Sounds like a high quality cutlery steel to me.
http://www.devinthomas.com/pages/faq.html
Sounds like a high quality cutlery steel to me.
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Yes it is sometimes difficult to separate fact from assumed fact or educated guess work. That is my point here exactly. We cannot go around stating things we do not know for certain as if we do. State that you don't know when you don't know is all I'm saying. Some take everyword as gospel without asking first is that correct.
I have utility knives designed to hold the same razor style blades as a Gillette disposable razor you shave with which are very similar if not identical to the ones in every garage in town that are used to scrape off inspection stickers as well as the typical Stanley blade knives and no where can I find definitive proof that these blades are not made of the same steel as the ones we are discussing or reading about from the AEB-L and 13C26 steels.
The information I do find contains limited detail. Stuff like mention of and short statements like "Stanley blades are made of a surgical strip steel with good toughness", and other such comments almost sound to me exactly like the info you provide about AEB-L in your link above to describe it. I can only assume they are the same or a very similar class of steel that must be cheap, relatively 'clean' (for surgical steel) and of a fine grain or carbide size from what I've gathered.
I just like to separate fact from guess work to point out that we can only take assumption as just that. I am guilty of this myself and simply learned a good while ago that when you read something or hear it stated as fact and then take it elsewhere stating it again as fact that its a good way to find out you are about to taste your foot because someone was not correct in a statement you took as gospel. I prefer to know when I can and not just believe it. When I don't know, I say I don't know I don't pretend to. An expert is an expert only when he knows what he knows, what he doesn't know and then knows the difference.(Bernard Levine said that not me.) Not that this part of the thread is all that important to anyone else but me. Once again I am just spinning my wheels here. I'm going somewhere else now. Promise.
Thanks for the link.
STR
I have utility knives designed to hold the same razor style blades as a Gillette disposable razor you shave with which are very similar if not identical to the ones in every garage in town that are used to scrape off inspection stickers as well as the typical Stanley blade knives and no where can I find definitive proof that these blades are not made of the same steel as the ones we are discussing or reading about from the AEB-L and 13C26 steels.
The information I do find contains limited detail. Stuff like mention of and short statements like "Stanley blades are made of a surgical strip steel with good toughness", and other such comments almost sound to me exactly like the info you provide about AEB-L in your link above to describe it. I can only assume they are the same or a very similar class of steel that must be cheap, relatively 'clean' (for surgical steel) and of a fine grain or carbide size from what I've gathered.
I just like to separate fact from guess work to point out that we can only take assumption as just that. I am guilty of this myself and simply learned a good while ago that when you read something or hear it stated as fact and then take it elsewhere stating it again as fact that its a good way to find out you are about to taste your foot because someone was not correct in a statement you took as gospel. I prefer to know when I can and not just believe it. When I don't know, I say I don't know I don't pretend to. An expert is an expert only when he knows what he knows, what he doesn't know and then knows the difference.(Bernard Levine said that not me.) Not that this part of the thread is all that important to anyone else but me. Once again I am just spinning my wheels here. I'm going somewhere else now. Promise.
Thanks for the link.
STR
Cliff Stamp
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I have been asked to perform evaluations with the companies that use those blades and develop means for them to improve the quality control methods they use in manufacturing, I am well aware of the steels they use. A typical Olfa blade does not use 13C26 stainless steel, they are in fact not stainless.
As for Thomas, he interjected himself into the discussion of the steel and heat treating and both specifically asked for my opinion on their heat treatment and then disputed it. It is absurd then to state that he should not be asked for details to support his position. If he isn't qualified to speak on that subject then where is your criticism for him interjecting himself in it in the first place?
The double edge razor blades are meant for a high initial push cutting sharpness, i.e., to shave with. The are not meant to perform well cutting carpet and similar work. They are often used for such work but it is NOT because they actually do it well. It is because they are cheap and you just use another one when it stops working, which is very quickly if you use if for the tasks you noted which demands a high wear resistance and has no requirement for a high edge stability. If Kershaw was making a knife for such work it would be much more optimal to use a high carbide steel.
Kershaw of course isn't selling the Storm and similar knives to be used in a similar manner, use it a little and then throw it out and buy a new knife and thus it is invalid to extrapolate as you have done because the conditions of use are not even similar. Again, as I have noted, 12C27M is more of a beater steel designed for high toughness and corrosion resistance where the blades are not as well cared for and the high carbon 19C steel that Sandvik makes is much more suitable for extended cutting in abrasive materials like cardboard and carpet.
To be very clear, if Kershaw starts promoting that steel, 13C26 for that class of work, a beater knife used very harsh on abrasive material it will very quickly destroy the reputation of that steel because it is not designed to do those tasks and you are not helping the steels reputation nor Kershaw by advocating such use. It will not compete with high carbide steels for such work and is significantly inferior. This will quickly lead to the steel being judged as low quality as soon as people start performing direct comparisons. This is not a theory it is exactly what destroyed the reputation of the steel many years ago because it was not used according to its strengths. You can in fact still find this steel dismissed in many steel FAQ's because it has a low wear resistance and it was never evaluated based on how it was designed.
Again, this is a highly focused steel which is designed to hold a very high polish at very acute edge angles. It has near optimal edge stability and should be used accordingly. This is why it is simple to design for because it is so specific. This doesn't mean you can't use it in the wrong way, it simply means it has a very narrow range of uses where it performs well. In contrast something like A2 isn't such a niche steel. It is designed to be a moderate toughness/wear resistant steel and thus basically be adequate over a wide range of abilities which is why it can work ok in both large and small blades for various functions.
-Cliff
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What Kershaw is really doing, Cliff, is beginning to replace 440A steel with 13C26 in most large folders. That is it, and it is a good thing, no matter how bent over backwards we get from discussing hypothetical heat treatments, suitable only for custom, small operations.
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Ok so much for the promise. 
People are using it now as a beater. I know them. I think the only way it will not hold up as you describe is if it were heat treated as you say you would like it; as it appears to be holding up quite well at the current hardness and tempering they currently use Cliff.
As for my advocating the use as a beater. Not really my intention. I am simply reporting the uses I see the steel being applied for in the hands of those using it. At the $30 price point it is a no brainer that the steel is being used daily by those that bought it and most likely at least some of those are 'beaters.'
Olfa blades are not one I even know where to buy here local. I'm not saying they are not available, just not what I was referring to. They may be more popular where you are but most guys I see are using some kind of a stainless blade and thats what all mine contain to the best of my knowledge as I've never seen one rust.
Sorry for the sidetrack I just had to point those final things out.
STR
People are using it now as a beater. I know them. I think the only way it will not hold up as you describe is if it were heat treated as you say you would like it; as it appears to be holding up quite well at the current hardness and tempering they currently use Cliff.
As for my advocating the use as a beater. Not really my intention. I am simply reporting the uses I see the steel being applied for in the hands of those using it. At the $30 price point it is a no brainer that the steel is being used daily by those that bought it and most likely at least some of those are 'beaters.'
Olfa blades are not one I even know where to buy here local. I'm not saying they are not available, just not what I was referring to. They may be more popular where you are but most guys I see are using some kind of a stainless blade and thats what all mine contain to the best of my knowledge as I've never seen one rust.
Sorry for the sidetrack I just had to point those final things out.
STR