Why is flicking damaging to the Reeve knives

Trying to think about it from a mechanical perspective, when you wrist flick you momentarily over-open the blade causing some deflection beyond the normal stop point which allows the lockbar to go just a little further than it should. The bar is under greater pressure causing accelerated wear to the bar tip, and increased loading to the bar hinge.

Although it wouldn't matter done a couple of times, doing so over and over again would be detrimental in the long term.

I can quite understand why Chris Reeve wouldn't want to warranty knives that have been treated like that.

It is not the stop pin that is being destroyed.
Watch the video that has been posted in this thread...at the very end they show a picture of a severely damaged lock face, which means the entire lock side scale needs replaced at around $125 or more.

We'd need high speed video and some destructive testing to really be sure, but I would be the issues are both peening of the stop pin and over-engagement of the lockface due to permanent and temporary deformation of the stop pin. I could be wrong... :)
 
We'd need high speed video and some destructive testing to really be sure, but I would be the issues are both peening of the stop pin and over-engagement of the lockface due to permanent and temporary deformation of the stop pin. I could be wrong... :)

I searched General and the CRK sub forum and didn't really find any information on damaged / deformed stop pins, only conjecture.
Not saying that it doesn't occur, just that there doesn't seem to be a history of it.
Even in the video posted they only address the damaged lock face and no mention of stop pins.

Either way, it seems that the only people who are concerned about damage and (non) warranty coverage are those who aren't CRK owners.
 
Let's be reasonable and honest here: if you haven't handled one, you probably shouldn't comment.

I've never bought an Apple MacBook, but it isn't because they don't offer high degrees of quality, performance and reliability. It's because they tend to use proprietary components and are very low on the user-service/upgrade scale - which means that, unlike a Sebenza that I can reasonably expect to last a lifetime, a MacBook may last only several years.

To be fair, I wouldn't expect any computer to last a lifetime, meaning the comparison between a quality knife like a Sebenza and a PC isn't a very good one. Most people who buy a computer are likely shopping for a new one after 3-5 years. As far as someone commenting on a knife without actually having handled one goes, it seems to be par for the course when it comes to CRK. All I know is I wouldn't sell any of mine, they're that good.
 
Social status has nothing to do with it because the knives are built as work tools, no ups no extras. Very purpose built and very functional. It's too bad people feel compelled to express opinions not based in fact. CRK's, in particular, seem to be magnets for bashers.

Knives are made to cut things. CRK knives do not cut any better than most other knives. That's just a benign fact.

There are no such thing as CRK bashers. There are those, however, who don't nod their heads like idiots when told that CRK knives are "built as work tools, no ups no extras". That's when the rest of us call bull. Titanium and big shiny pivots and exotic wood inlays and colorful graphic and big pretty medallions and extravagant pricing are 100% about the bling factor and nothing else. When CRK fans enjoy the bling factor, its all good, and we can all relate to how smooth a Sebenza opens. But when they start pretending that CRK are mere work tools that cut better than everything else, and that people who don't agree are stupid, unsophisticated and unable to discern what a close tolerance is - that's when a cold bucket of reality gets poured on them. CRK folders have tons of the cool factor. Arguably the most of any folder. But here in the real world, they don't objectively outperform a $30 Buck 110 as a "work tool". That is not bashing - its just reality.
 
Thats why i dont lend my knife to novices; they think right away they need to blast it open. many of todays knives are so smooth, its hardly necessary. even my flippers i open just enough to lock em open, i do not & have never felt the need to blast open a knife.ive seen more threads about abusing knives & which ones can be abused then i care to see.Knives are meant to cut things,not to be beaten to a pulp....
 
Knives are made to cut things. CRK knives do not cut any better than most other knives. That's just a benign fact.

There are no such thing as CRK bashers. There are those, however, who don't nod their heads like idiots when told that CRK knives are "built as work tools, no ups no extras". That's when the rest of us call bull. Titanium and big shiny pivots and exotic wood inlays and colorful graphic and big pretty medallions and extravagant pricing are 100% about the bling factor and nothing else. When CRK fans enjoy the bling factor, its all good, and we can all relate to how smooth a Sebenza opens. But when they start pretending that CRK are mere work tools that cut better than everything else, and that people who don't agree are stupid, unsophisticated and unable to discern what a close tolerance is - that's when a cold bucket of reality gets poured on them. CRK folders have tons of the cool factor. Arguably the most of any folder. But here in the real world, they don't objectively outperform a $30 Buck 110 as a "work tool". That is not bashing - its just reality.
Wow, no such thing as CRK bashers? Perhaps you should have bothered to read this thread as nobody in this thread stated anything about CRKs cutting better than any other knives. Only you stated anything about that.Funny how you stated CRK fans nod their heads like idiots, though.
No such thing as CRK bashers???
 
I searched General and the CRK sub forum and didn't really find any information on damaged / deformed stop pins, only conjecture.
Not saying that it doesn't occur, just that there doesn't seem to be a history of it.
Even in the video posted they only address the damaged lock face and no mention of stop pins.

Either way, it seems that the only people who are concerned about damage and (non) warranty coverage are those who aren't CRK owners.


Not arguing with you, but it's not certain that people would ID deformed stop pins without precision tools and techniques (your forte, but not mine). I don't think posts here are a reliable indicator.

I think your last point is probably very telling. :eek: :D
 
To be fair, I wouldn't expect any computer to last a lifetime, meaning the comparison between a quality knife like a Sebenza and a PC isn't a very good one. Most people who buy a computer are likely shopping for a new one after 3-5 years. As far as someone commenting on a knife without actually having handled one goes, it seems to be par for the course when it comes to CRK. All I know is I wouldn't sell any of mine, they're that good.

I don't expect any computer to last a lifetime, certainly. But my desktop and one of my laptops are 2007 machines.
 
Just want to add my macbook lasted almost a decade. Dell lasted 2 years, struggled too haha.

it seems crk owners need not worry about it, there would be 1st hand accounts and stories of quality issues, the haters would of made that popular already.
 
The flippers I've seen disassembled do have stronger stop pins, yes, and that makes a difference.

Interesting as I have never seen this. Ive pimped, repaired and sold many knives in my 20 years of collecting knives. I have never seen a flipper with stop pins that look to have been increased in size for the sole purpose of taking the force of a blade opening with force. In fact many flipper knives I have seen require a smaller pin than you would see on a typical folder as many makers switched to the beg style internal stop pin the doesnt require you to design your flipper protrusion around the stop pin and still fit a bearing race. Which flipper have you seen with this feature and are you speaking in direct comparison to the stop pin used in Chris Reeve knives?

I'll tell you what, if you want to let me borrow a Bradley alias, I will head over to locutus' house and sit down with one of his sebenzas and take detailed pictures and do a write up on why a sebenza costs more to produce than an alias.

Here are three off the top of my head:

Crk's production capacity is much smaller than benchmade so they don't get the big bulk discounts.

Crk crowns the spine of the sebenza

Crk uses a pivot bushing

Now remember that manufacturers (in most retail business so I am just assuming for knives) cost is usually 25% what the retail price is (it's sold for twice what it cost to make to a wholesaler who then doubles it again).

If those 3 items alone add $20 to the cost of making the knife, that knife will now cost $80 more.

Im pretty sure all of the bradley knives have crowned spines. But I think the major thing being missed as to why CRK knives are more expensive than an alias is one of tolerances. CRK is known for some of the most strict tolerance allowances in the industry. Much of the hidden cost in their products is due to how much materials get scrapped from not passing QC. CRK throws away what many makers would consider top shelf parts. Its a costly way of doing business. But it also ensures less lemons getting into the pond.
 
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I did not know flicking wasn't allowed so explicitly with CRK.

Does anyone know of a knifemaker that builds knives who are tough enough to withstand the apparently tremendous strong forces that come with the puberal flicking of one's tool?
 
Im pretty sure all of the bradley knives have crowned spines. But I think the major thing being missed as to why CRK knives are more expensive than an alias is one of tolerances. CRK is known for some of the most strict tolerance allowances in the industry. Much of the hidden cost in their products is due to how much materials get scrapped from not passing QC. CRK throws away what many makers would consider top shelf parts. Its a costly way of doing business. But it also ensures less lemons getting into the pond.

The alias does not have a crowned spine and the blade is similar to those found on your off the shelf griptilian. The mayhem balisong by Bradley might have a crowned spine is I remember correctly...
 
I did not know flicking wasn't allowed so explicitly with CRK.

Does anyone know of a knifemaker that builds knives who are tough enough to withstand the apparently tremendous strong forces that come with the puberal flicking of one's tool?

I dont think theres a steel that will withstand humans stupidity.
 
There have been very few threads on BFC with regards to actual experience of CRK refusing to honor their warranty.

I could be wrong, but two that I do recall were started by guys who bought their CRK second or even third hand and knowing that a problem existed but still expected CRK to service them for free, which they would have done except that the knife was obviously abused.

I bought 2 Sebenzas new this year and have no issues with either, but 99.9% of the threads regarding CRK's warranty / repair are positive, and I don't abuse my knives so I have no doubt I will be taken care of should a problem ever arise.

The bottom line is this: CRK seems to be honest and up front about what constitutes abuse, and very few CRK owners are disappointed with their knives.

The good news is that there are several other companies (KAI and Strider seem to pop up frequently) who cater to wrist flickers and prayer bead users and people who have never sharpened a knife but need warranty / repair work because they have worn out the lock mechanism, so flick away!

:barf:

I love Kershaw's customer service. They replaced the torsion bar on one of their SpeedAssist models after I just blatantly wore it out. I sure must be an idiot... Or I spent $40 on a knife and can do whatever I please with it, and if the company offers a warranty service it's stupid to NOT take them up on it. And I've sharpened my knife so sharp I could shave your face with it! :p

I don't think it says anything about the quality of CRK or Sebenzas if they won't warranty a knife that's been damaged by flicking for a couple of reasons... Basically, if you actually manage to damage a knife significantly, flicking probably wasn't the case unless you were trying to fling the thing open with significant force, and even then you'd have to be practically trying to test it. That bit is important, because if the knife is without defect, it shouldn't take any force to "flick" it open with your fingers, so there is frankly no good reason to do it. You'd flick marbles harder to get a blade deployed on a folder in good shape; so if you have to apply much force to it, then there's probably something else wrong with it entirely and they'll probably take care of you. So really, I can only imagine the reason why they did this is because they do high precision work, and to repair that high precision work under warranty costs a lot more money. Meanwhile, people who buy a $500 knife are more likely to send a knife in for warranty if they see an issue, but having money to spend doesn't necessarily mean they know any better so they might go around wrist-flicking it like it was a gas-station special and tear up the lock, put a bunch of play in it. Then they'll get the notion, "I spent $500 on this, and it can't even handle that?" and then because they don't offer the repair services for this people think they're somehow stingy.

The comparison between KAI is interesting, because think about it... If you send in a knife to CRK and you have seriously screwed it up, how much more does it cost them to repair it versus what something at a much lower level of manufacturing and labor costs? It makes me think of Benchmade not offering to warranty knives people take apart and don't assemble right, because they put it back together incorrectly and a lot of people don't like that, think it's because they feel people are too incompetent, and just don't want to take the hit for costs on it. Then on the other hand, some comanpy's manufacturing costs are cheap enough where the extra cost is worth the rep for good customer service.

Ultimatley though I think with something like a $500 knife from CRK, the warranty is built into the price in the fact that they're not trying to SAVE any more money. They have taken a lot of money from you, and their product is basically the proof in the pudding and they should be able to have whatever discretion in their warranty they want. I don't really see myself ever getting one, don't like all the "hype" around them, but I do understand the difference between a precision made knife like the ones Chris Reeves makes, and pretty much 90% of other "mass produced" knives.

tl;dr: People really shouldn't worry about wrist-flickin not being covered, if for some earnest reason you actually have to flick it open that hard there's probably something wrong with it, and they probably will fix it. Otherwise, you probably did something completley obviously and likely intentionallty abusive to it, and expect them to warranty your ignorance/stupidity instead of their craftsmanship. Moral of the story: Pay for craftsmanship, respect craftsmanship, be happy.
 
Not arguing with you, but it's not certain that people would ID deformed stop pins without precision tools and techniques (your forte, but not mine). I don't think posts here are a reliable indicator.

I think your last point is probably very telling. :eek: :D


In my experience stop pin deformation isnt really an issue. What I have seen be an issue is the holes in which the stop pin sits. Those usually being made of a much softer material than the actual stop pin deform and allow some play so that the stop pin no longer makes positive contact. This is rare though and usually in cheaper knives that are poorly designed. Lockbar deformation is much more common. For a fair amount of proof of why this isnt a major issue one only needs to look at a modern day balisong knife. These knives have usually one or more stop pin either affixed to the blade or one in each handle. The ones in the handle being smaller and fixed into (Usually) softer materials. These knives undergo tremendous amounts of stress and impact yet manage to last many many years without deformation and failure. the ONLY times I have ever heard of a pin in a balisong needing to be replaced it was due to it coming unscrewed and falling out. The majority of these pins are the same size if not smaller than your average stop pin.

The alias does not have a crowned spine and the blade is similar to those found on your off the shelf griptilian. The mayhem balisong by Bradley might have a crowned spine is I remember correctly...


yeah my mayhem for sure has it. I could have swore at least the earlier alias knives had them too. Seems odd that they went after CRK with the design of those knives yet never crowned the spine. Maybe they were trying to tread lightly as to avoid a lawsuit.
 
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You say there are no CRK bashers then commence the bashing?:confused::rolleyes:

Knives are made to cut things. CRK knives do not cut any better than most other knives. That's just a benign fact.

There are no such thing as CRK bashers. There are those, however, who don't nod their heads like idiots when told that CRK knives are "built as work tools, no ups no extras". That's when the rest of us call bull. Titanium and big shiny pivots and exotic wood inlays and colorful graphic and big pretty medallions and extravagant pricing are 100% about the bling factor and nothing else. When CRK fans enjoy the bling factor, its all good, and we can all relate to how smooth a Sebenza opens. But when they start pretending that CRK are mere work tools that cut better than everything else, and that people who don't agree are stupid, unsophisticated and unable to discern what a close tolerance is - that's when a cold bucket of reality gets poured on them. CRK folders have tons of the cool factor. Arguably the most of any folder. But here in the real world, they don't objectively outperform a $30 Buck 110 as a "work tool". That is not bashing - its just reality.
 
My Combative edge M1 has a good detent when utilizing the thumb studs. The blade will lock up with authority. The flipper...requires a small wrist flick to deploy. This could be due to the flipper in relation to the pivot.

I assume with the wrist flick action needed, it's going to prematurely wear out.

My point about Nutnfancy...Like him, or hate him. He's a knife aficionado like the rest of us. If you've seen his videos, he almost always applies a slight wrist flick upon deployment.

My worries about the Umnumzaan have been mostly laid to rest. I'll just use the knife as I see fit. It seems like it will be more than capable, so long as I'm using it for work only, and not as a toy.
 
Moved them to this new thread. :)

I have to say, I've learned a lot from this thread, as well as the thread our friend Mr. Esav linked to here. I won't be flicking my folders anymore (no, not even my super tough Cold Steels) unless I have to. I don't flick a whole lot, but even some of my more expensive folders have already developed some slight vertical wiggle.
 
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