WIP: Designing and building the new Resolute with the help of CNC.

[aarongough]

What I don't like about any of the software deals where you rent the program on a monthly basis is this: What will you do when they say that instead of $130 a month, it's now $150? $200? $500?? You'll pay or you will have no access to any of your own work anymore. I downloaded it when it came out, then canned it pretty soon.

I also won't go for Adobe's CS software anymore for the same reason. They won't give a contract for more than a year and after that they can raise the price to whatever they want.

Also $130 a month is $1560 a year. I bought Solidworks a long time ago and paid it off in a few years. Now I own the software outright, am off of maintenance as I still use XPpro on 2 Dell Workstations and have zero desire to ever buy another box with a MS OS. If Solidworks comes out native on the Mac OS, I will upgrade at that time.

When you use your machines and software to make a living you have to think about the longer haul.

Well right now I have Fusion free for 12 months, so I have that time to make my mind up. I was previously using an older (2011) version of solidworks and it had it's share of bugs and so on, things that were fixed in newer versions. I agree that it's nice to actually 'own' the software, but it keeps getting better over time and I think it's useful to keep up to some extent.

The $130 version of fusion is only really different in that it has 3D CAM. The $30/month version has nearly all the same features but only includes 2.5D CAM. I think $30/month is a pretty hard price to argue with for a tool that so integral to the process.

 

[aarongough]

Pure wizardry. I'm just awestruck by that thing, and these processes.

Me too man, the machine completely amazes me! And I really hope I never lose that fascination with it! Even though it's an older and simpler machine it really is an amazing piece of technology!

 

[aarongough]

Neither water jet nor laser produce finished contours for high quality knives. They *are* both much more efficient for blanking knives than directly milling the blanks from big plates of steel. Both waste a lot less steel, especially when combined with automatic positioning software – you get the maximum number of parts from the sheet with a minimum of waste. Laser cutting requires annealing before final contour milling which you save with water jetting. Both are up to +/- 0,2mm tolerances though, maybe even better depending on the material thickness.

If you buy steel in narrow bars, it doesn't pay to use either one, might as well use the mill or the bandsaw.

One thing I will note:

When I was buying 6x36" sheets of steel and having knives waterjet from it I was getting 16 blanks per sheet.

If I buy 4x 1.5x36" bars, chop them up to 9" lengths on the bandsaw and then run them through the mill I will get 16 blanks. Same number of blanks from the same amount of steel either way.

Waterjet/laser *can* be more efficient, but I think you only really get the benefit if you're able to change your design to nest better. If you're taking an existing design and having it blanked via waterjet I reckon the yield will likely be the same either way.

 

[aarongough]

To be clear: my focus is not on maximizing yield, nor minimizing cost. Overall my focus is on refinement of the knives I make with the help of the consistency of CNC. Being able to focus on refining repeatable processes is something that really appeals to me, and will hopefully let me make even better knives than I could by hand!

This statement is not intended to contrast myself against anyone else, I just wanted to clarify my goals because we were getting into some efficiency-oriented topics.

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

There are bunch of CAD programs on the market, many that are good and not all that are too expensive. CAM software is also a whole world in itself.

It's not the $30 a month, it's the fact that you can be cut off from all of your work and means to make a living at any time by a company that you have no control over. To me, that is a very unsound business decision. But then, I try and earn my living making knives and grips, so that is my perspective; your situation may be quite different.

I use Solidworks 2012 as that is the last version that runs on XP. Never found a bug in the software or needed any features it doesn't have and I can always go back on maintenance and update any time I want. For designing knives you need about 10% of what that software can offer. My main concern is always learning how to use it better.

But again, there are many different reasons why folks on this forum make knives and that will influence their personal choices. For example – while I have enjoyed watching you work on that CNC mill – in the condition it was in, I would not have picked it up and taken it to my shop if someone had given it to me for free. Because I would never be able to make any money with it once I had invested all that was needed to even get it running. I lack your ability to fix and restore the machine and even if I had it, my time is better spent designing and making knives and gear rather than restoring old machines. I have to check my plans against the realities of business where I am. I do hope you will keep posting your experiences as they are fun to read!

 

[JCaswell]

Yeah, Kevin. The OP did a fantastic job on this Fadal. I wouldn't have touched it either, but it looks like he's got it going, cleaned up and doing nice work---a significant achievement all by itself.
I have SW 2012 too, but am running it on Windows 7 on Bootcamp (partitioned drive of my 2009ish IMac). It's nothing short of amazing that my old Mac can run SW and HSM works (which is even more massive), but it does.
I'm gonna upgrade to a new computer soon, because this poor little workhorse has been pulling more than intended for years and as time goes on, something tells me I'm tempting fate.
But anyway, I have had zero issues running SW on Windows 7 even with the seriously taxed resources of an older computer, so it you wanted to upgrade (very little reason to do so, I know), I wouldn't expect trouble going with the later Windows.

 

[JCaswell]

Aaron,
I use waterjet a lot...for blanking.
I just waterjet the profile (no holes) about .03inch oversize and plop the oversize blank into a softjaw (aluminum jaws machined with the oversize profile of your blade machined into them so when you squeeze the vise, it clamps down on your blank) in one vise. Drill holes and maybe machine one edge to finish in one operation (usually a sacrificial edge like the bulb on the point you might add so your point won't round off in tumbling). Then I move it to a fixture in the next vise that locates the part accurately by the machined hole(s) (or a hole and a finished edge). That way you can machine the entire profile in one operation and in proper relationship with your machined holes, while only having to remove about .03inch or so around the profile (a couple quick passes using a contour routine) rather than having to remove a lot of material all around the blade. It's two operations total per blade, but it seems like an acceptable way to do a few hundred pieces or so. Even with two ops, it'll be faster than machining the knife from a block and will save you big on cutters, and material, and in the end, you have the precision holes and profile that you got the machine for in the first place.:thumbup:

 

[aarongough]

Guys,
I think it's fairly disingenuous to speak against the idea of buying a second hand mill without knowing all the context. If I'd been able to swing getting a new HAAS that is probably what I would have done, but my lack of credit history in Canada made that a no-go.

However, I personally think that would have been a poor choice given what ended up actually happening. In Canada a fairly entry-level HAAS MillMill will run you about USD$55,000. After the exchange rate, sales tax and financing cost, total cost over 5 years would have been something on the order of CAD$80,000. That's around $1,300/month for 5 years which is a serious fixed expense...

$80,000!! And that doesn't even include tooling! That's a BIG investment to make on an untested hobby-turned-business...

My Fadal cost me $6,780 including sales tax.

Despite it's very poor appearance in the photos it did actually run when I bought it. In fact it ran just fine which is why I bought it! Most of the work I did to it was to prevent any possible deterioration, the busted grease system and spindle motor fan in particular were good catches because those could have gone on to become very expensive problems.

Before I started working on restoring the Fadal I had never touched or run a machining center. In fact that Fadal was the first machining center I ever saw in operation! These machines in particular are fairly simple beasts (at least from a mechanical perspective) and if you want to fix one you can, online resources make it much easier than it used to be.

I only worked on the machine part time (a few days per week) which is why it took several months to do the restoration. If I'd been more focused and worked on it full-time I reckon I could have done it in 2-4 weeks.

I did my research, the guys on PracticalMachinist helped a lot, and it worked out well. I wouldn't discourage others from doing the same, particularly with an older Fadal or a HAAS as they're well supported with parts and service even now.

 

[aarongough]

Kevin:
I thought your name sounded familiar from some context other than the forum... Today what I was at the shop it dawned on me why! When I was looking at HAAS the sales guy said they had a knifemaker in Germany using their machines, and handed me this:

That and a few other issues of 'CNC MACHINING' are still sitting on my bookshelf at the shop!

 

[aarongough]

Ok, so back on topic!

Today I worked on the fixturing and toolpaths for my handle scales! The fixture making went well, I used it as an opportunity to run some more aggressive toolpaths, and boy did they ever make a mess of the shop!

I was cutting some 1018 bar stock for the fixture using a 3/8" variable flute endmill running at 6,787RPM. The cut was 0.625" deep and 0.1" wide at 60 inches per minute. It fired a rooster tail of chips clear across my shop! The High Speed Machining toolpaths are very quick and effective (and easy on tools) but if I'm going to keep using them I'm going to need an enclosure for the machine ASAP!

At least it made very pretty chips:

The fixture itself is fairly simple in this case, just a relieved top surface and some bolt holes:

The toolpath for the handle scales is turning out to be a bit trickier than I anticipated. Fusion's CAM didn't want to treat any of the large angled cuts as chamfers. After battling it for a bit I ended up programming them as 2D contours with my chamfer mill pretending to be an endmill. This should give me nice clean chamfer all cut in a single pass that will look exactly like the ones I do by hand on the grinder (which is very important to me). Here's what the model looked like that I used for the chamfering program:

Next I'll be programming a 3D roughing toolpath over the top of the handle scales, then finally a pass with the big 1" radius cutter to get the exact handle shape I want. When they're done they should look exactly like the ones I make by hand, which is the primary goal!

I had to load a bunch more tools into the machine today, I need to keep all my tools for G10 separated from my steel cutting tools as G10 dulls tools very quickly. My toolchanger is nearly full at this point! 12 out of 16 spots full of tools:

I'm looking forward to seeing the first scales come out of the machine!

 

[rustyrazor]

Pure wizardry. I'm just awestruck by that thing, and these processes.

lol... I'm in the same boat. nerd magic at it's finest! I wish I had the time to actually go to school and learn how to run a CNC machine.

another great thread Aaron. keep up the good work.

 

[aarongough]

lol... I'm in the same boat. nerd magic at it's finest! I wish I had the time to actually go to school and learn how to run a CNC machine.

another great thread Aaron. keep up the good work.

Thanks mate!

If you're interested in learning more about CNC there's lots of ways to get started! Reading the threads at CNCZone and PracticalMachinist is good. You can also muck about with a CNC simulator to get your feet wet without having to buy equipment:

http://cncsimulator.info/ (Note that I haven't tried this one!)

At some point when I get more time I'd like to do some videos covering the basics of CNC. It all looks somewhat scary but it's actually reasonably simple if you approach it one step at a time!

-Aaron

 

[Salem Straub]

Your approach to knifemaking and the cleanliness of your shop are so opposed to mine... that I really enjoy watching your vids. Somehow I almost find the modernity and precision of it comforting. I often work with a CNC plasma cutting table in my life as a fabricator, and another friend of mine runs a couple of monster vertical machining centers in his mold making shop- your threads are inspiring me a bit to explore that world farther. I like manual processes, but for some things it would be SO cool to be able to CNC mill parts.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[JCaswell]

Aaron,
Never meant to disparage your choice in buying a used machine. Your logic is sound and you obviously have the temerity to take on the challenges.
The reason I wouldn't touch it is that I know people that have bought used machines that ended up costing (no joke) tens of thousands to get up to snuff, and I don't have the bandwidth to chase all that down (too busy keeping my own stuff together enough to keep things moving to deal with questions about the machine).
But your results are inspiring, and I'm happy for you.

An enclosure would be a real plus, if you can swing one---especially if you plan to ever use flood coolant.

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

Kevin:
I thought your name sounded familiar from some context other than the forum... Today what I was at the shop it dawned on me why! When I was looking at HAAS the sales guy said they had a knifemaker in Germany using their machines, and handed me this:

That and a few other issues of 'CNC MACHINING' are still sitting on my bookshelf at the shop!

Haha! That is me back in 2005 when I bought my brand new TM1. I had never run or programed a CNC machine and had only seen one once in real life. The Haas dealer was kind of hesitant to sell it to me in fact. The German government has programs to provide financial assistance to businesses who upgrade and I was able to qualify for such a program. That helped a lot back then and thanks to that I am still in operation. If I had not bought the TM1 I would most likely have had to close my business by 2008 at the latest. But it all worked out and now I also have a Haas Mini Mill to keep it company. You can check out some of the older posts on my Google News Blog for pics of the machines getting moved in and out of high windows! http://wilkins-knives.blogspot.de/2014/03/the-eagles-have-landed-along-with-lot.html

One really good thing about Haas machines – and one of the reasons to buy one – is the way they hold their value for resale. I could still sell my TM1 now after 10 years and get a substantial portion of what it cost me back. Particularly considering that my machine has seen very light duty compared to what such machines are subjected to in normal industrial operation. The performance of both Haas machines plus the 10 years of excellent support for every (dumb) question and with the very, very few real problems I have had, would make it very hard for any other machine salesman coming to my shop. The Haas folks are always welcome!

When I saw that Fadal machine of yours, it looked to me like one of those "barn-find" cars you see on some car show on TV ... I was happy for you that it also turned out in the end like on TV: where they drive off into the sunset in a totally restored vehicle! Like I said before, I plain don't have the skills to restore your machine and would not even have tried. For me, your machine would have been more expensive in the end than a new one. And I suspect it would be for most folks too, unless they already have the skills to tackle a project like that. Hell, if I could do that, I know it would be more lucrative here than making knives, because I know they have a very hard time finding good machine techs. So if you want to come live and work in Germany, I will try and hook you up!

@Joe
Buddy ain't no way I am "upgrading" to Windows 7 ... from one obsolete OS to the next! My Dell Workstations run rock solid with XP pro and are set up to at least try and make me money. ;-) I still also run a Mac Power PC Quicksilver! Still also cranks along with some software I own and use. I just hope as Apple gains more market share, that more "industrial" software gets ported to run native on it. I bought a new Retina Macbook pro a short while ago and would have bought a new monster Mac if Adobe still sold CS outright. Take a look at Infinity Designer on the Mac, it is a real alternative to Illustrator and the company is perhaps working on one to compete with Photoshop. Adobe may have taken their monopoly position too far. I always loved their stuff and have runs Macs since 1984.

 

[aarongough]

Aaron,
Never meant to disparage your choice in buying a used machine. Your logic is sound and you obviously have the temerity to take on the challenges.
The reason I wouldn't touch it is that I know people that have bought used machines that ended up costing (no joke) tens of thousands to get up to snuff, and I don't have the bandwidth to chase all that down (too busy keeping my own stuff together enough to keep things moving to deal with questions about the machine).
But your results are inspiring, and I'm happy for you.

An enclosure would be a real plus, if you can swing one---especially if you plan to ever use flood coolant.

No worries Joe! I too have heard horror stories unfortunately... I've also heard lots of good stories regarding used machines! One of the reasons I was willing to take a bit of a gamble on this machine is because Fadals are still very well supported, pretty much all the parts for my machine are still available new or remanufactured for reasonable prices. That's not necessarily the case with other brands... For instance when I was looking for machines I looked at a Matsuura MCV510. Beautiful machine, but when I looked into the availability of parts I was told they were hard or impossible to find, and expensive when you did get them, so I let that machine go by.

I think it's interesting how we all approach a similar goal in very different ways! I appreciate you following along on the thread!

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

I totally agree. There is NO comparison between Waterjet/laser and CNC.
At best and "intermediate precision" process. Iffy finishes. Kerf taper. Loose tolerances .... WJ is a convenient blanking operation.

Just a quick derail.

I agree with some of your comment. There are lots of waterjet shops who produce poor quality. There are also some shops like Leading Edge Fabrication who produce parts with excellent quality.

Mark at Leading Edge consistently meets and/or exceeds our quality expectations. Their shop has a dynamic head on the waterjet so there is no taper on the edges. The holes are spotted with excellent accuracy and consistency. Their turnaround time is excellent. They have hit every schedule date they quoted. I highly recommend LEF.

Grouping all waterjet companies together with regards to quality is like saying all knifemakers have the same quality. It is not a correct statement.

Chuck

 

[JCaswell]

Chuck,
Yes, I've heard great things about Mark. I'm sure he's a top-tier operator.
With respect, I wasn't commenting on the relative quality of the vendor, but rather the limitations of the process. I would never expect even a top-notch waterjet vendor to hold precision-machined tolerances.

 

[aarongough]

Your approach to knifemaking and the cleanliness of your shop are so opposed to mine... that I really enjoy watching your vids. Somehow I almost find the modernity and precision of it comforting. I often work with a CNC plasma cutting table in my life as a fabricator, and another friend of mine runs a couple of monster vertical machining centers in his mold making shop- your threads are inspiring me a bit to explore that world farther. I like manual processes, but for some things it would be SO cool to be able to CNC mill parts.

Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for following along Salem!

 

[Storm Crow]

Very cool! Are you planning on using the CNC to mill your bevels? Or are you going to grind them?