Wusthof, Henckles, Cutco, Sabatier

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I did a LOT of research into kitchen knives soon after making the original post.
I checked into Spyderco, AG Russell, Boker, Wusthof Classic, Henckel, Cutco, Sabatier, Forschner, Global, Victorinox and a few I can't remember right now.
I had / have Spyderco set, Boker set, Wusthof set. I've handled or bought a single Henckel, Sabatier and Cutco knife - a 3 1/2 " paring knife from each company. The paring knife is the cheapest in each line, very much representative of the line AND you can never have enough paring knives! :)

Most of you know, I LOVE SPYDERCO! Unfortunately the kitchen line is made up of too few sizes of knives. Good steel, comfortable, easy to maintain / sharpen. Very reasonably priced per piece.

Boker is a fine line made from 440A, well finished, sharpen easily. I think the 13 piece set cost around $125 - $130.

Sabatier is another great line! They just felt "skinny" in my hand. A French design.

I chose to buy Wusthof Classic for the following reasons:
They "felt" right in my hand. The balance, the weight, the natural mechanics. This is a subjective matter. There is a very close resemblance between Wusthof & Henckel but even though I can't verbalize it, I could feel the difference - even with my eyes closed. Henckel is a great line too. And generally less expensive item per item.

My suggestion for choosing is to handle as many brands as you can. If you lend any credence to "expert opinion" check out Consumer Reports, Cooks' Illustrated, and EPinon.

Epinion is an on line "real reviews" site of various consumer items.

John
 
Please do not get me wrong either. I am NOT knocking CUTCO. but you sit down and have to go thru a whole dog and pony show. Then a magic pair of scissors appear, CUTCO scissors and the salespersons asks for a penny and cuts it in half. Oh the women oogle and AH-gle and ask how much. Oh just 48 bucks. I have a pair of 4 buck EMT shears that can do the same thing. But the key questions, about steel, grinds, and important stuff go unanswered. then the price....TWO GRAND!!!!! but it gets split 50/50 with the sales rep. great for a college kid in a rich Town if he can sell 10 sets over a summer. So in reality the CUTCO set is a grand. Now How much does CUTCIO pay to have them SAY "made in the USA". When did we buy Taiwan?.......wolf
 
Don't shoot the poster. I didn't mention too many negative points that I ran into in my earlier post.Since others brought it up though, I guess I AM knocking Cutco.

If there's someone who ISN'T SELLING CUTCO whotruly believes Cutco is the best knife in the company of those mentioned earlier, please chime in.

Regarding Cutco Cutlery:

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/kitchen/kitchen_knives/reviews.html

The consumersearch.com site feels that Cutco DEALERS have rated and reviewed the brand using numerous registration names per individual. Thus tipping the ratings
If this a wide spread thing then the guy or gal who is selling it was the one who rated it so highly. It can be ASSUMED that other ratings sites may be skewed likewise.

"The Cutco subheading on this opinion site has an amazing 200-plus entries, while no other brand has more than 40 comments! The reason for this outpouring of love? Cutco is sold exclusively via door-to-door salespeople. It quickly becomes apparent that the majority of the posters here are Cutco representatives. In fact, even in reviews of other brands, Cutco knives are recommended, leading us to suspect that the Cutco cult has infiltrated the site to the extent of writing disparaging reviews of other products to make Cutco look good."

Would you want to buy a product from a person (or more ominously, a company who instructs it's representatives to do so) who would resort to these tactics? Would you want to buy a product so dismally rated (see quote below from Consumer Report site Subscriber page) at 25% - 30% MORE than the highest rated knives?

Consumer Reports rated them 18th:
18.Cutco Classic $155
Stamped. Price is for 3 knives bought singly. Very sharp, long-lasting edges.
Slicing and utility knives, though serrated, are excellent. Manufacturer will resharpen knives. 9-in. chef's knife tested. Sold door-to-door or by mail order (800 828-0448). But: Uncomfortable handle. Lost points because more likely to corrode than most. Recommendation: Very good, but expensive.
 
yes i am a cutco sales rep. but i am also an owner which says a lot about cutco. no i don't make a 1000 on our Ultimate set. they are made in the usa. hey don't corrode. there nothing that could corrode. even if you think they do you can get it replaced for free. no i don't get paid to post on boards. i do it so i can learn more about knives so i can give my customers honest nd truth opinions. and i don't see how the handles are uncomfortable, they were designed to fit any hand.
 
Tiger:

Since you expressed a desire to learn about knives, I'll tell you how they corrode.

Iron, in the rpesence of harsh elements, produces iron oxide: RUST! Bad news for cutlery. Steel is made up of iron and carbon. Add other elements and you get different kinds of steels that behave differently. If you add enough Chromium such that there is 13" free Chrome (I think it is 13%, it may be 13.5) you get stainless steel. If cutco blades are made of steel, they can corrode. If they are made of Talonite, Stellite, or titanium, they cannot corrode. Stainless does not mean stain-proof.

Incidentally i thought the handles on Cutco knives were alright. THe material is nice and I though attractive. Also, they do fit the same in a righty's hand and a lefty's hand. Don't believe that since they were designed to fit everyone, they are the best handle. One size fits all doesn't apply to handles. The Cutco handles offer a good compromise. they should fit most hands reasonably well. But you can get a grip made on a knife that you use that would fit your hand MUCH better than a Cutco handle. For example, a Singe Finger Grip handle designed for your hand will lock your hand in for thrusts and slices. Change grips and it may feel funny. put it in the other hadn and it may feel funny. But put it in that oen grip and you can go to town all night with it! It is a compromise game.

Please keep posting, asking questions and informing us. Actually, it would be great if you could find out for us forumites what blade material Cutco knives are made of, how hard they are and the heat treat process as well. We would be very appreciative.
 
Welcome etiger!
The posting referred to was in a consumer rating site called epinion.com
I believe their point was over 400 posts from "Cutco owners" and yet only 40 - 50 each per Wusthof, Henckel, etc.

I don't have a figure to substantiate it but I 'm pretty sure Wusthof has more consumers worldwide. You can see where suspicion might arise.
The comment about rusting (actually corrosion which could mean discoloring or staining, I guess) is directly from Consumer Union (Consumer Digest). They develop a testing regimen and then put a representative item from each manufacturer through testing.

The statement of a set costing $2000 US to the end consumer for a Cutco Ultimate set has been used by other Cutco Sales Reps with the figure of $1000 US as the mark up confirmed by several Cutco Sales Reps. (Possibly EX & possibly DISGRUNTLED EX Cutco Sales people) You may not be the Cutco employee enjoying that profit margin entirely but someone, somewhere in the Cutco chain IS. You might want to ask your District, Area, Regional manager (your boss) where it is going.

My point to this is that it is my belief backed by my spending that there are better manufacturers of kitchen cutlery at better prices to me. The word of mouth, the "expert opinion" both agree with my experience.

I'm willing to pay for quality. I'm not willing to overpay. This is in no way meant to reflect negatively on you. You believe strongly in your company's product. And I respect that.

John
colobbfan
 
about cutco
it will cut your prep time in half as opposed to cheap crappy knives because it cuts better. most of you though probably have half way decent knives that cut pretty well. but yours constantly need sharpening and occasionally steeling right? ours only need to be sharpened once every 10-20 years(for the double-d edge) and 3-10 years for our straight edges. now most of you probably have one knife for everything. while that one knife can cut a lot, it will constantly need to be sharpened. now let me ask you, does a mechanic only use one tool? does a doctor only have 1 piece to perform surgery? no they use many different pieces to get the job done. that is the same with cutlery, there are different pieces for different jobs, and unless you have all those pieces, you are wasting time and energy. specialized pieces will get the job done quicker and easier.

saving money.
so basically you spent 200 on knives in the last 20 years? and what do you have to show for that, a lot of thrown knives and time spent sharpening, steeling, and replacing? good things aren't cheap and cheap things aren't good. if you had spent 200 on cutco 20 years ago you would still have the same cutco in great condition. but that is not the main way it saves you money. the main way is because with cutco are any other decent knife for that matter, you can save a lot of money by cutting things yourself. this includes whole bread(about $1-3 cheaper than precut), cheese(.5-5 cheaper in bulk), whole lettuce(2-5 instead of ready made salad), meat(.25- 10 cheaper than having the butcher cut it for you and in bulk becasue some cutco pieces cut frozen meat) and various other things that add up to lots of savings every time you go to the store.
The steel is 410 Stainless and the Rockwell hardness is 53-56.
with our guarentee, you will never have to throw your cutco away. you can always get it sharpened, or replaced. usually its free to get sharpened or replaced. to get it sharpened just call your local cutco office and they send someone out to do it for you becasue most of our pieces have the double-d edge. the straight edges you can do yourself whenever you feel the need to be manly. or if you want you can pay less than 10 bucks to send the knives back to the company to get sharpened there. if something is wrong with your cutco you can get it replaced for free unless you intentionally destroyed it, then it will only cost half the price to replace.
double-d edge. the dd edge is not a serrated or straight edge but a little of both. this picture explains it. it is a specially made and unique edge thats why no sharpeners sold in stores can sharpen it. you have to have some training to do it. but why do it yourself when someone else will do it for free?
DoubleD.gif

pricing- cutco cost anywhere from 540-2250 for the cutlery sets. there are only three sets over 1000. most are under 900. the 2250 set comes with 12 -4piece sets of flatware (silverware is the most commonly used term) and about 32 knives with a block, cutting board, straight edge sharpener, all-purpose scissors, and a 6-piece serving set plus some other things if you are nice to the sales rep.
i only get 30% commission and my boss gets 5%. the rest goes to the cost. all reps though start at 10% commission and then move up depending on how much they sell. the max you can get 50% which the company makes no money off of. they make the money off of new reps. because there sre some many new reps, the company can stay in business. becasue there is actually work involved in selling cutco, most reps quit because they think it is a get rich quick scheme, which it is not. it is a real job. for every 20 reps that start, maybe 1 or 2 will stay longer than a month. now i have no idea about the actually number that stay but there aren't that many that stay. so thats why cutcu can give 50% commission to its top reps. stores do the same thing. while i don't know their comissions i know they make one. plus stores add a lot of other costs, like other employees salaries, overhead like lights, space, displays, advertising, executive bonuses, and lots of other costs that drive prices up. so its the same thing cutco does but cutco explains things. if any of you have had problem reps then i am sorry. not all cutco reps are like that. i'm not.
if you gots any more questions just ask me
 
John- my recommendation, as usual, is to try one of George Tichbourne's line of kitchen cutlery. George has some well-designed, ergonomic knives to choose from. And he will take any of his standard models and dress it up the way you like- different handle materials, contrasting liners, he'll even etch your name on the blade. The blades have a fantastic polish, second to none. To top it off, you will be doing business with two of the nicest folks in the business, Carol and George!!:)
 
a word for sabatier they are awesome! but they do rust so you got to wipe'em dry right away or wash the rust off later.

cutco uses decent steel but they are stamped and charge as much as other forged knives, not my taste, plus the handles are replusively ugly.

henkels are no longer forged, they are welded in three pieces they some times rust along the weld I have winessed this many times.

wusthof are good though the edge geomentry is too round for my cutting style.

forschner are very good for the money.

japanese globals are pretty good only the forged ones.

kikuichi and masmoto are awesome as well but pricey.


an Usuba is an awesome addtition to a kitchen set.

in general though you have to cut a bit with them to get that feel which says it all. it is like trying on shoes.
 
etiger,
The info is much appreciated and again I respect your belief in your company's product. That is how it should be.

chrisaloia,
Very succinct and accurate (in my opinion) "reviews"! I haven't much handled Global stuff. I know it's lighterweight and "quicker" handling feeling. Forschner / Victorinox is a great line of very reasonably priced knives. Has anyone handled Lamson Goodnow? Opinions? I couldn't find a local store to check em out. Sabatier's "French" shape is just a little awkward feeling to me.

richard rosvall,
Thanks for the heads up / thumbs up on George Tichbourne's knives. I've heard alot of people say very positive things about Mr Tichbourne

John
 
tiger -

Your $4000 savings argument just doesn't hold water. First, although I have spent about $200 on kitchen knives in the last 20 years, I still have all of them and they are in good working condition, not thrown or wasted or no good any more. In fact, the only reason I have spent that much is that I have a weakness for knives and sometimes buy more than I really need. I do not spend an inordinate amount of time sharpening them. And the figures you give for saving -

Whole bread at $1-3 cheaper? Man, where did you buy the sliced bread? Besides, when I want whole bread I bake it myself, I do a lot of that. I already buy cheese in bulk, and I challenge anyone to give me a knife that works better on cheese than my wire cheese cutter. My meat-buying habits have more to do with my available freezer space, I don't have room to buy in large quantities. Of course, if that high price tag of the Cutco set included a freezer plus free utilities (I live in CA so I don't need another big demand for electricity) maybe it really would save me some money. I buy my lettuce whole, too, and have absolutely no trouble cutting it with my completely inadequate knives. Besides, the main selling point of the prepackaged cut lettuce for most people is not because they simply can't cut it with their bad cutlery, it is because they are simply lazy and want it alreay cut. That's the good old American way, and it has nothing to do with the quality of their cutlery. The list goes on and on. Again, your sales claims are based on complete stretches of the truth that any critically thinking person can realize doesn't apply to them.
Your double D edge is just a variation on the serration theme. The benefit is that the serration points may dull but the interior edges will stay sharp longer. But they will dull. The real benefit is that serrated edges will cut most materials better than straight edges when both are dull. But does the double d edge significantly outlast other serrated edges? I would bet that the dull serrated edge will not cut as well as a sharp plain edge in most food applications. Ever try to cut carrots with a dull serrated edge?

Sorry everyone for getting on my soapbox again, I just get a little worked up whenever I encounter a slick sales pitch that doesn't have any basis in fact.

Again, if anyone can give me actual demonstration of the superiority of these knives, I might be interested. The challenge is still there, but just give it to me straight without your "it will save you a lot of money" bull. I have been into knives for a long time, and my appraisal of a knife is based strictly on performance. Can these knives really give a significantly better performance than my kitchen cutlery? They may be better than the junk that most Americans have, but that is not a hard thing to do.
 
my sales claims are not based on complete strches of truth. everything i say i have done and tried out so i know they are truth. if you weren't so closed minded, you would see that the things i am say make sense. if you don't believe it, fine, but don't start beating on Cutco just because of things you have heard. if you have not tried something out, then how can you say it is not good or doesn't work. now if you had had Cutco for 30 years and was saying some of those things, then i might listen, but until then listen to the things you have said. the things i said do in fact apply to most people who actually eat food and have families. they will easily spend 100-200 on groceries every two weeks. i know because i live in a family with 7 people in the house. to save 4000 in 10 years is saving about 8 a week which isn't hard. our slicer will cut through bread without smashing or tearing it. it also works on the cheese to easily cut through it.
yes the doubled edge will outlast any most serrated edges. i say most because i have not yet seen all the knives out there on the market. but the ones i have seen, cutco is far superior to them. why would you be cutting a carrot with a serrated edge any way? our chef knife and vegetable knife would get the job done quicker. like i said knives work better in a set.
i would give you an actual demonstration but you're 5 hours away from me. i know i could sell you a set but thats a long drive. don't call your local office and ask for one though because most reps don't know as much as i do so they won't be able to answer some of your questions about the more technical aspects.
strictly on performance, Cutco is the best i have ever seen
 
Etiger,
My wife and I did in fact sit thru an entire CUTCO demonstration with one of my Son's college Roomates. He is an articulate, fine, educated young man and put on one hell of a demonstartion. As far as cutting, CUTCO does cut, I have said so in the other thread. I did match Cutco slice for slice with an LCC and a six inch henckel utility, but when it got to cutting cans in half, the ease in which cutco sliced thru plastic and wood, was simply amazing. I certainly did not try that with my knives. YOU BET I wanted a DELUXE SET. I had my wife go get her checkbook. I was absolutely convinvced that CUTCO was super quality and I was eager to pay the $500-$600 bucks I FIGURED they sold for. When this fine young man said "TWO THOUSAND", Sorry Bud, I VAPOR-LOCKED. it then went "Sir, if you pay for the complete deluxe set RIGHT NOW, you can have it for $1,600." Sorry my fine college roomie of my Son, That is flat out ROBBERY. The bottom line; he paid ONE-GRAND, SELLS THEM FOR TWO GRAND and I wonder what CUTCO pays for them?
the sole issue with CUTCO is that they are SERIOUSLY OVER-PRICED. No matter how well they really do work........Good luck, it is a fine product but the margain of profit puts them outta my class and there is NO BANG for my buck......wolf
 
etiger -

I think you have misunderstood me. I am not knocking cutco. Since I have never used one, I am not in a position to rate the performance. My issue is with the sales pitch and the price. Your sales pitch about savings just will not be a realistically honest statement for everyone. For some people maybe, but certainly not me. I know my own purchasing and using habits far better than you do. And when it comes to price...it comes to the law of diminishing return. Cutco would have to be far superior to other top brands (e.g., Wusthof, Lamson, Henckels, F. Dick, etc, all of which I have) to justify their expense. And for that I would have to see a convincing demonstration. I am not close-minded, I am just pragmatic, with a little disdain for overblown sales pitches thrown in the mix. The same issue of cost vs. performance applies to custom knives. I have seen a number of beautiful custom knives that I would love to have, but in my current economic situation the return in higher quality is not enough to justify the purchase. If you happen to know a qualified rep who could give me a demo I wouldn't be against it, but they would have to be warned that I know the difference between real performance and a slick demo that has no application in real life. And my wife says I'm tight. Otherwise, I think we have pretty much worn out this topic.
 
I own the Wusthoff Classic stuff, and I sell nearly everything else except Cutco and Sabatier. Seems every time you turn around, somebody else owns Sabatier and they change the styling so they don't match older stuff. Good knives, but getting harder to find. Last time my shop had 'em Cuisine de France was the vendor. If you like Japanese style knives, Kasumi are incredible. They're a 32 layer stainless damascus blade. Kikuichi is a great knife, as well, which has a carbon steel core and stainless sides, sort of like Cold Steel's San Mai III. Bang for the buck goes to Forshner/Victorinox, as they aren't the best edge holders, but they're very inexpensive. the new Meridian Elite line from Messermeister is great. There are a lot of thoughtful touches incorportated into this design. It has a partial bolster, which makes it a lot easier to sharpen over time, because a full bolster will need to be ground down at some point. They "break" the edges of the spine, which makes them really comfortable for use with a blade grip. Same on the handles: rounded edges. They have a lot of curve to the edge. If you like a flatter edge, go with Henckels. At the shop, our #1 seller is Wusthoff, and pricing is very good on 'em (e-mail me and I'll give you contact info. I won't post it here). Next is probably Henckels, but we also see more defctive pieces come back. Third would be either Forschner or Global. Global is a love it or hate it knife. Quality is great, but the handles are far to slim for me. People bring me Cutco to sharpen regularly. The serration pattern they use doesn't resharpen well, it needs to go back to the factory. My beef with them is that they are really uncomfortable, and way, way overpriced for a stamped blade knife. They sharpen like they're something along the lines of 440. I'll stick with Wusthoff. If I wanna spend that much, I'll buy everything that Kasumi has available. Incidentally, Global, Kikuichi, and Kasumi are all imported through Global USA. Sointu, Inc. is the parent company, I beleive. OK, you're falling asleep! I'm done!
 
Haji:

Thanks for that info! I wasn't falling asleep at all. I heard elsewhere on the forums that Cutco was made of 440-A. Tiger said 410. I suspect the 440-A is correct. I don't think 410 can be hardended anywhere near what a blade needs. 410 is used for guards and boldters on many a custom knife.

If I had the $$ I'd be getting Japanese knives. I love watching Iron Chef just to see the fancy blades that some of the Chefs use. I think I saw one chef use a blade with tigerwood (it was wood with an orangy background and black stripes) and wire inlay! That kicks ass on anything.
 
Instead of opinion let me provide some actual research. Last year we did a blind test using similar models of European bolstered and forged (some sintered) knives from Europe. The brands were Henckels, Sabatier and Wusthoff because they all had models that looked and felt the same as each other. To make a long story short, they all performed the same. The testers all had preferences and when they knew which knife they were using they had all kinds of nice things to say about their favorite. Blindfolded, they couldn't tell one from another. The test involved slicing, chopping, paring, abusing the blade on a cutting board and steeling. So my advice is not to buy what I like but to buy what you like. All of these high end knives will serve you well and will perform identically. Take care.
 
the company says cutco is 410.
i honestly don't know the differences between 410, 440a, 440 c and any others. could someone explain them to me so i can be further educated. lambertina if i find a rep in that area i think would be qualified to show you, i will let you know.
thanks everybody
 
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