Wusthof, Henckles, Cutco, Sabatier

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etiger -

As was stated above, 410 probably wouldn't be what is used in Cutco knives, it is not suitable for hardening to the point that is needed for decent edgeholding. Many stainless knives are made from 440 series stainless, with the only real difference between 440A, 440B, and 440C being the carbon content. Of these, 440C has the highest carbon content and can be hardened the best, but has lower corrosion resistance. Most cheap knives that say surgical stainless are 440A. If you are interested in the alloy compositions I think there is a FAQ here, and there are a number of websites that have tables of the composition of various cutlery steels. I don't recall any off the top of my head, but if no one else pipes in with them, let me know and I will dig them up. All steel alloys are a mix of various alloying elements, with each element giving particular properties to the steel. What works well for one application might not work very well at all for another.
 
I have an old Consumer Reports magazine from Decemeber 1998 in which they tested 4 blade shapes of each of the major knife manufacturers. No personal opinions in this magazine-they don't even have advertisers so I put a lot of faith in their judgements. Knives were judged on how clean and precise knives moved through various foods (no tin cans or pennies,who cuts these with knives anyway?), balance, comfort and corrosion resistance. In order of their choices, they chose Wusthof Trident Grand Prix knives, Wusthoff Trident Classic Knives, Henckels Professional "S" knives, Henckels Four Star Knives.

I have mostly Grand Prix and love'em.
 
Originally posted by colobbfan
I need some input on higher end kitchen cutlery. Do you have a preference of these brands? Or other brands to add to the list?
I know that the older Wustof & Henckles used virgin steel.
Full tang GOOD, three rivets GOOD. Forged GOOD. What else to look for?
Any good purveyors? Good prices?
Any & ALL input is much appreciated!
Thanks
John
colobbfan
Click to expand...
 
Just a quickie. What year was Sabitier knives first put into production?....wolf
 
This is only my opinion, but I will stand behind it 100%. Cutco knives are a rip off. If you want Cutco, buy Ginsu. They are the same quality, and cost a whole hell of alot less.

Cutco makes its money off of milking younger (normally college students) people who are truely trying to make an honest living. Most of the salesman have little or no knowledge of knives before going to a Cutco rally (their sales meetings are nothing more than pep rallies for the products). They require there salesmen to buy a basic set to use in door to door demos. This salesman who just sat through the brain washing siminar, and truely believes what he is told about the product, is then told to try out his sales pitch on friends and family. These friend and family will of course buy one or two knives. Then the victom of Cutco (the salesman) tries his hand at door to door sales. After a few weeks of no sales, he will of course cut his loses and move on to a new job. But what does Cutco care. They sold a basic set and one or two more. And they have ten other kids waiting to get rich off this fantastic product. Makes me sick! Cutcos mother company has also been investigated time and time again for these practices and have been found several time to be in violation of CAs new sweat shop laws (requiring their saleman to buy a product that is only availible from the employer).

Cutco is no better than the companies in the 40s and 50s who played off the general populations ignorance of the product to push the handy dandy do it all vacuums.

Cutco needs to be shut down and be forced to refund the money of every salesman who purchased his sample pack.

Tiger, this is nothing against you. And please do not take it that way. But I really hate this company, I hate the product and I hate the way it conducts itself. If you really want to now about a product ask the people who make their livings in the industry (not a Cutco sales manager who needs news salesmans purchases to feed his pocket). I am a full time professional knife maker. I make a very good living off knives. I have to have a very good knowledge of materials and products.

Hate to say it, but a Cutco knife is no better than a Sears hacksaw.
 
thats great clark but before you go shooting your mouth off, why don't you get your facts straight. if you had been following this board at all you would see how cutco really works. there is no door to door and the company even says to not do it. i feel it is a very legite job and i personally have sold quite a few sets. you only have no sales if you don't work at the job. it is a real job that you have to work at in order to succeed. i would say i am doing good at this job and hope to continue with them for a very long while. you are attacking cutco and on this board i do take it personally so think before you go start talking and look like an idiot, what you arlready are. now that was a personal attack.
 
I'm no moderator, but gentlemen, please act accordingly. No personal attacks please.

Tiger, you are new to the board and are learning the ropes, so that is cool. R.W. listed his reasons why he didn't like the company and the product. And he asked you not to take this as a personal attack. You said in an earlier post that you came ehre to talk abotu knvies and to learn abotu them. You can't take it personal if someoen writes negative comments about something you like. I don't care for Stag. Phil loves the stuff. But we get along :D R.W. doesn't liek Cutco and gave his reasons. And there wasn't anything that looked like a personal attack there. What is it that he said that you found personally offensive?

I said earlier that yes, Cutco works. Indeed, it does. But as stated by other forumites, many find that the mark-up is too much. And I have yet to hear definitively what the blade materials are. If the knfie was made of 410 it would lose its edge after the first few swipes on a penny.

Please, everyone, get along! And please don't take honest knife discussion personally. Address points rationally and provide counter-arguments if you want, and have fun. That is what this community is for.
 
Of course it is a legit job, I never said that it wasn't. If you are making sales I am sure you are working your butt off. But that does not take away from the fact that the majority of Cutco sales are made only to the salemen themselves. And yes I know how your sales actualy go, yes I know the Cutco "frowns" on cold calls. I know alot more about this company than you think. And no I never worked for them. But that does not change the fact that the Cutco company and its mother company operate a barely legal scam. That does not change the fact that they are way over priced.

Now lets see, I know how much I have in one of my knives materials. I sell them for $150 and up. I actually make very little. Now Cutcos material costs are far far below mine. I would say for a 10" chefs knife that materials would be around $0.90-$1.25, now how much does that knife sell at final retail. What around $90? Gimme a brake.

If you came to this forum to learn, then please start doing so. As to your attacks on me, water off a ducks back. Idiot? Ya some might say so. After all, I have only spent 15 years learning about knives, and ten years making them. I have another hundred of so to go before I really know knives.

So why don't you educate us on the finer points of Cutco. Heh, I have an open mind. So answer the following questions.

What is the steel? (410 stainless, not likely)
What is the Heat Treating process?
What is the Rc?
Are they cryoed?
What is the manufacturing process?
Where EXACTLY are they made?
What is the handle material?
How are the handles attached?
What form of adhesive is used?
Have they been evaluated by a valid third party?
What industry experts stand behind the company?
What do companies such as Consumer Reports have to say?
What does the BBB have to say about Cutco (I already know this one, so why don't you give them a call and find out)?
Why are Cutco salesmen so defensive?

Back in 94-95 there was a Cutco saleman on rec.knives. When he started getting booed off the newsgroup by people who really did know knives, he started issuing death threats. Really, he was e-mailing people saying he would kill them if they did not support Cutco. He was using a college e-mail account and was tracked down. He was thrown out of the college.

So truely, right here in front of some of the most knowledgable guys and gals in the knife world, convince me that Cutco is anything other than a POS. If you can, through science and real life testing not company hype, I will be Cutcos biggest supporter. Convince me how Cutcos knives are better then a BG-42 or 420V or hey even a Talonite custom paring knife. Convince me how Cutco is better then a custom fillet made by Bill Herndon. Convince me how a mass produced stamped steel blade is better then a handforged blade by a Master Smith.

I'm listening.........

Better still, bring your favorite Cutco hunter out to my shop. We will put it up against one of my ATS-34 Model 10 custom hunters. Good ol' fashion rope cutting and 2x4 chopping. First knife to break loses. Who wants to come out and be a judge? We can video it and post photos on the forums. If I lose I will buy a Cutco Hunter from you,and proclaim the quality of Cutco knives. If you lose you will buy a Model 10 from me, and never again say Cutco is the best.

If you really believe in Cutco, here is your chance to prove how good they are and make alot of sales from everyone who will review the challange!
 
Cutco sales reps DO go door to door. The only difference is they use friends, relatives, and others to establish a "one foot in the door" method. There is the initial phone call, to see if it would be "OK if Joe, my college roomate who sells CUTCO knives, shows you their products" Of Couse, as it it your SON that made the first call, Joe from CUTCO calls, and the Sunday, no obligations, no strings, no heavy pressure "demonstration" (have that shiny penny) is scheduled and JOE knocks on the door.
Etiger, I have sat thru CUTCO's demonstration. The young man is a VERY CLOSE friend of my son, and was welcomed into my home with his CUTCO case, and would STILL BE welcomed into my home without it. He is a wonderful young man.
THE ISSUE WITH CUTCO IS SIMPLE. Too much money for their deluxe set!!!! Two Thousand to start, then $1,600. $48 for a pair of scissors. You KNOW the info you supply, maggots that live under wood handled kitchen knives. the never needs sharpening, the complete deluxe set, to include steak knives. As a sign of friendship, I was prepared to pay about $500 for the complete shooting match of the 'custom deluxe set", but $2,000???? E,tiger, the PRICE is INSANE.
After it was absolutely clear and there was NO CHANCE my Son's roomie was gonna make ANY money we talked. He HAD to BUY his first set at $1,000. He hooked a relative for $1,850, and then moved around HIS family tree UNTIL CUTCO awarded him a FREE super duper set. THIS is the set he was selling!!! HE offered this: HE pays CUTCO $1,000 for each deluxe set FIRST, Sells for between $1,600-$2,000 and uses each demonstration to get "contact names". So, no blind "door to door", he is smarter than that. He gets some background on his "targets" BEFORE, then he adjusts his CUTCO moderated sales pitch". He KNEW I was a knife Junkie and modified his pitch to include having me get some of my collector knives to go up against CUTCO. My Spyderco Standard cut thru a coke can just like his super-duper CUTCO's, but he used the fact I refused to use a MT or a Carson to cut a plastic sheet as proof CUTCO is superior. No, ETiger, that was not the case,I have nothing to prove, HE DID, and at two Grand a set, CUTCO fails miserably at giving the Customer, WHO BY THE WAY IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!, the best bang for his buck. Please, do NOT get offensive, you seem intelligent, articulate, and sincere. It is NOT you, it is CUTCO!!!!!
Good Luck and please maintain calm, this is not to discredit, just my opinion of a $500 complete kitchen cutlery set sold at for times it's maximum value.......wolf
 
I don't see Mr Clark's comments as a personal attack on you etiger13. I seevalid points from someone who is a KNOWN expert (albeit a modest one) on steel, hardening and what to expect from materials.

There are numerous reports from highly respected consumer organizations (Consumer Reports, BBB, Epinion, etc) who report poor performance, and less than steller sales techniques.

There are numerous individuals who are very knowledgable about knives here. There are some who have been approached by Cutco reps with the sales spiel. Door to Door, buy a set then try to recoup your money techniques, etc.

There are known methods of testing knives. There are known results when certain manufacturing techniques are used. One ploy of less than quality manufacturers is to keep secrets - steel type, etc ( mentioned in Mr Clark's last post). If Cutco is using quality material & technique for manufacturing wouldn't they be PROUD to tell potential customers? And where it was made with pictures of their skilled workers, etc, etc etc?
Every other QUALITY maker does. Every CUSTOM maker does. Every article in knife publications brings up and explains material and process. And educates knife buying potential customers about quality & workmanship. Wouldn't Cutco want to sell more product by going head to head with Wusthof, Henckel, etc by offering their product at retail outlets?

Just some points to ponder. NOT a personal attack. But, attacking Mr Clark's intelligence & knowledge was a step in the wrong direction if you're trying to learn about knives OR sell me a set of Cutco.
John
 
You have received a lot of advice about different manufacturers, but the most important advice is to see if you can try a knife out before you pay a lot of money for it. I bought a nice bowie knife from a custom maker and I really like it a lot. I mistakenly assumed that a chef’s knife from the same maker would be a good next purchase. The chef’s knife is beautiful, but it cuts like an ax. When I slice vegetables, the knife cuts into the first part really nicely. Then because of its incredible thickness, it rips down the rest of the way. Mushrooms, potatoes, etc. all have a jagged side as I complete the cut. I sharpened it a got an edge on it that is shaving sharp – still the same problem because of the thickness.

I can’t blame the maker – I should have tried it or at least looked at more than a picture before I assumed anything about the knife. Other chefs use this knife I’m told and like it. This just shows that one size doesn’t fit all. So when you consider the advice you are getting about knives from various manufacturers, make sure that when you narrow your choices down, you try to look at the knives or try them if you can. Just remember that a knife that one person prefers isn’t necessarily one that you will prefer.


Originally posted by colobbfan
I need some input on higher end kitchen cutlery. Do you have a preference of these brands? Or other brands to add to the list?
I know that the older Wustof & Henckles used virgin steel.
Full tang GOOD, three rivets GOOD. Forged GOOD. What else to look for?
Any good purveyors? Good prices?
Any & ALL input is much appreciated!
Thanks
John
colobbfan
Click to expand...
 
Cutco knives are the running joke of the restaurant industry...basically the Franklin Mint of kitchen knives.

Yes I've used them, and yes they rip rather well. Only in a bad dream would I have to use them to make a living.

My current choices:

Murray Carter
Doc Gundersen (Arizona)

and these beautiful knives (at a good price!)
http://premiumknives.com/ShopSite/Kasumi_Forged_Damascus_Kitchen_Cutlery.html

$0.02

-Michael
 
if you like the euro, style go with wustof trident. i am a custom maker that works with a few 5 star chefs as well as lots of home chefs, i do a fair amount of sharpening work as well. henkel knive use to be the benchmark of quailty about fifteen years ago. i can tell is its a wustof or henkel while i am sharpening. henkels are soft, even the german ones. one other brand i suggest you look at is Global from japan, in my book the best production knives on the market the buzz is about half the chefs in germany use global, 25% use wustof and almost none use henkel.
 
I went through this same exercise about a year ago, including trolling the forums looking for suggestions. I had finally decided to build a block around the then new Falkniven K1, and went about finding one. I searched high and low for a b&m in my area w/ the knife and purely by accident picked up a 6" Chef's from Lamson & Goodnow. That's all it took, perfect fit. Every so often I think I'd like something more exotic, maybe one of those Hattori damascus jobs or a set of George Tichborne or Ed Storch customs. I always enjoy using the knives though. I did find a need to have accessory, Spyderco's TriSharp, some days you could shave with the darn things.

jcmitch
 
...What about Fallkniven kitchen knives? The VG-0 should set them apart, but I have not seen them mentioned yet (I could be blind). So, what about the rest of the knife? I have never seen one in person so I thought I'd ask for some opinions while we are giving them out.;)
Jeff
 
Originally posted by 2REDUCK
MMMMMMmmmmmmm.....

:barf:
Click to expand...

I realize I'm new, but hey, don't knock it. These are pretty good. WMF is one of the top three mass produced brands in Germany. They're usually not available in the US. The set at COSTCO is the "Spitzenklasse": forged steal (marked x45 Cr Mo V15), full tang 3 rivet handles. The blades are harder and hold their edges better than my Henkles Pro-S.
 
Hello!

This post has been edited. It is improper form to link from here to an auction. If you want to sell on Bladeforums, get a membership and post the item in non-auction form in the for sale forum section.
Dave
 
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