You can't do THAT with a ZT...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yo Mama said:
stabman, I like the review

On a serious note, I know little on framelocks, but I thought the most valid argument against zt is the angle used between lockface and tang? Basically along the lines of Chris Reeve did it perfect, and others haven't gotten the angles down right?

Again, I know little about this lock, but obviously yours has the correct angle man!
Click to expand...

Wish there was a like button
 
Sell enough knives and some will have issues, including with the locking mechanism. In today's world a disproportionate number of those examples will end up either on YouTube or talked about on forums like this. None of this yammering is anything but noise. Whether any knife or knife manufacturer has more or fewer issues with lock failure than any other company isn't going to be established by internet anecdotes.
 
HappyDaddy said:
Sell enough knives and some will have issues, including with the locking mechanism. In today's world a disproportionate number of those examples will end up either on YouTube or talked about on forums like this. None of this yammering is anything but noise. Whether any knife or knife manufacturer has more or fewer issues with lock failure than any other company isn't going to be established by internet anecdotes.
Click to expand...

I agree and disagree. Agree, in that even if we collected every reported failure and took them all at face value our sample size would likely still be way too small to make a truly informed judgement. Disagree, in that internet anecdotes and backyard testing is pretty much the best we're gonna get. It's far from ideal, but you have to work with what you have.
 
Dude... don't you know that in the last 6hrs, 10 ZTs exploded in their owners' hands!!!

Troof!!!
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Disagree, in that internet anecdotes and backyard testing is pretty much the best we're gonna get. It's far from ideal, but you have to work with what you have.
Click to expand...

I agree - that's the best we get. My point is that it's useless noise. It proves nothing beyond - "this particular knife performed this way." It says absolutely nothing about the relative reliability of the brand or model (whether ZT, Cold Steel, Benchmade, or any other). It's meaningless nonsense.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Disagree, in that internet anecdotes and backyard testing is pretty much the best we're gonna get. It's far from ideal, but you have to work with what you have.
Click to expand...

Personally, Internet videos testing locks or edge retention are pretty much useless. You have no idea what else was done to the tested knives beforehand. They're not scientific and mostly for entertainment or in some cases agenda-driven.
 
Are you sure that's a genuine ZT? They're not supposed to be able to handle that so I suspect it's a fake. :p
 
RamZar said:
Personally, Internet videos testing locks or edge retention are pretty much useless. You have no idea what else was done to the tested knives beforehand. They're not scientific and mostly for entertainment or in some cases agenda-driven.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but as I said, do we have anything else?
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Agreed, but as I said, do we have anything else?
Click to expand...

Mass hysteria?

Seriously do any of you anti ZT zealots even own a ZT? If you do, has the lock failed? If you don't than WTF do you care and what do you contribute? Nothing. No data, not tests, no experience, nada.
 
stabman said:
Probably safer than toads for a snack. :)
The huge numbers of toads out where I was got my interest up as to their edibility.
Common consensus seems to be that it's best not to try eating them.
Click to expand...

Some people like to lick them though. (File under "wtf did I just watch") :D

[video=youtube;5SuZMwe-XRc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SuZMwe-XRc[/video]

You can baton just about any folder if you do it right, and ya' don't even need to undo the lock if you're careful about where force and resistance are both being applied.
 
Geneo said:
Mass hysteria?

Seriously do any of you anti ZT zealots even own a ZT? If you do, has the lock failed? If you don't than WTF do you care?
Click to expand...

Got anything besides random ad hominem? ZT doesn't make much I like, but I don't think they have huge issues nor would I hesitate to buy one if they came out with something I liked and priced it right. Doesn't change the fact that videos like the OP posted (which is an impressive showing by a ZT) are all we have to go on.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Agreed, but as I said, do we have anything else?
Click to expand...

Hmm. The only way to really get to the bottom of it is to look at the knives that were returned for warranty work from a large selection of companies. That'll never happen so the only thing to go on is a bunch of guys saying their knives fail and a bunch of guys who say their knives don't and that the guys who say their knives fail are lying because theirs didnt.

Edit : beat me to it.
 
HappyDaddy said:
I agree - that's the best we get. My point is that it's useless noise. It proves nothing beyond - "this particular knife performed this way." It says absolutely nothing about the relative reliability of the brand or model (whether ZT, Cold Steel, Benchmade, or any other). It's meaningless nonsense.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think some people put far too much stock in such videos. I think you're going too far the other way. Lock strength tests/failure videos will always be pretty worthless because even a 'common' lock issue will be rarely discovered because, as people love repeating ad nauseam, most knife tasks don't stress the lock. When it comes to edge retention, fit and finish and other measures of quality it gets much more reliable as we can begin to establish certain trends. I think it's a mistake to take any of this stuff without a grain of salt, but I don't think tossing it all out the window is a solid approach either.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Got anything besides random ad hominem? ZT doesn't make much I like, but I don't think they have huge issues nor would I hesitate to buy one if they came out with something I liked and priced it right. Doesn't change the fact that videos like the OP posted (which is an impressive showing by a ZT) are all we have to go on.
Click to expand...

I Have two ZT knives, one a frame and one a liner lock., The locks work fine. I have a high-end Spyderco and two Benchmade Griptillions. I first bought the Benchmade because of their axis lock seemed pretty foolproof. But my $165 ZT 550 is 1000 times better in quality and materials and fit and finish than my $100+ Benchmade. The Benchmade may survive a much more forceful spine whack than my ZT, but I can't imagine any use case where enough force in the direction opposite of cutting could happen where it fold any of my knives. I have given all, including my Ti framelock Spyderco, a few good whacks and none have failed. All of these videos of spine whack tests with very high forces have no grounding IN THE REAL WORLD.

I have heard of 2, count them, two, cases where a ZT has folded under light taps. How many knives do you think they sell? To the zealots show me more than two! That is just a QC and warranty issue with ZT. I have had QC issues with my Benchamde and Spyderco as well (though they were cosmetic and ergonomic in nature), and had my Spyderco replaced.

Any high tech mass produced product is going to have some bad samples. I once had to return a $5500 Canon camera lens because of internal dirt contamination. Shit happens.

Anyhow, back on topic, lock failures of the spine whack type could only come into paly with batoning when you are trying to extricate the knife from the wood IMO, which does not take that much force. So why did this even come up in the context of this thread? I think some people don't want to see anything positive said about ZT.
 
Last edited:
Excellent post Stabby, thanks for the share and the laughs too. Mod approved thread; keep it on track guys...
 
Geneo said:
I Have two ZT knives, one a frame and one a liner lock., The locks work fine. I have a high-end Spyderco and two Benchmade Griptillions. I first bought the Benchmade because of their axis lock seemed pretty foolproff. But my $165 ZT 550 is 1000 times better in quality and materials anf fit and finish than my $100+ Benchmade. The Benchmade may survive a much more forceful spine whack than my ZT, but I can't imagine any use case where I enough force in the direction opposite of cutting could fold any of my knives. I have given all, including my Ti framelock spyderco a few good whacks and none have failed. All of these videos of spine whack tests with very high forces have no grounding IN THE REAL WORLD.

I have heard of 2, count them, two, cases where a ZT has folded under light taps. How many knives do you think they sell? That is just a QC and warranty issue with ZT. I have had QC issues with my Benchamde and Spyderco as well (though they were cosmetic and ergonomic in nature), and had my Spyderco replaced.

Any high tech mass produced product is going to have some bad samples. I once had to return a $5500 Canon camera lens because of internal dirt contamination. Shit happens.
Click to expand...

You keep quoting me, but your responses have had nothing to do with my statements. It's great that you've had good experiences with your ZTs. However, your statement that it's fantastic has even less impact than a video or pictures of testing as we're now just supposed to take your word for it. Part of the problem with these discussions is that people have very different standards of evidence for things that make them feel good and things that make them feel bad. If we want to acutally evaluate knives instead of taking stands on emotion consistency is very important.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Personally, I think some people put far too much stock in such videos. I think you're going too far the other way. Lock strength tests/failure videos will always be pretty worthless because even a 'common' lock issue will be rarely discovered because, as people love repeating ad nauseam, most knife tasks don't stress the lock. When it comes to edge retention, fit and finish and other measures of quality it gets much more reliable as we can begin to establish certain trends. I think it's a mistake to take any of this stuff without a grain of salt, but I don't think tossing it all out the window is a solid approach either.
Click to expand...

"most knife tasks don't stress the lock..."

So by that logic, some do. And those circumstances are where a lock is beneficial. And if having a lock is beneficial, I'm sure you'd probably want it to work like it's supposed to. The problem is that those circumstances are really not that prevalent so locks aren't always tested. And since locks aren't always tested in the real world, people devise tests for the lock. And here we are. Some people don't ever need a lock and cry about people saying a lock should work. That causes people to say things "well then why have a lock at all" and the cycle continues. What it comes down to is if the knife has a lock, it should work. If it doesn't, then it should be returned and repaired or replaced. If it happens quite a bit, then there's a problem with manufacturing. Knife nuts should stick together and demand the best quality possible, not defend the companies doing it. They're a company and do what their customers demand if they want to stay in business. As long as they have a base of people that defend inconsistent locking mechanisms, then it will continue. If they have a customer base demand that they fix the problem, then it will be fixed. There's no personal vendetta or agenda or anything like that. People who want to care about ZT and want to like ZT want ZT to fix the issue. Some others go so overboard that they're OK even with all the video proof showing the failures.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Some people like to lick them though. (File under "wtf did I just watch") :D

[video=youtube;5SuZMwe-XRc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SuZMwe-XRc[/video]

You can baton just about any folder if you do it right, and ya' don't even need to undo the lock if you're careful about where force and resistance are both being applied.
Click to expand...

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt!
beb157e6-e261-4929-98a3-7f33e8ba0306.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top