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Been there, done that, got the t-shirt!
Awesome.
Next demonstration needs to be with the War Toad, now.
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You can't do THAT with a ZT...
- Thread starter stabman
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Awesome.
Next demonstration needs to be with the War Toad, now.
All ribbing and posturing aside, IMO this thread brings up 3 perennial, cyclic topics:
+ Outdoor use vs "hard use"
+ Knife as pry bar and lock failure
+ Hard cutting and lock failure (Ok, this hasn't come up specifically, but should...)
Outdoor use vs "hard use" - With all due respect to Nutnfancy, Mors Kohanski and Ray Mears, there is never a "need" to baton a knife in the woods. Way too many expeditions have been completed in places with no wood available. Stoves and tents/tarps suffice. Outdoor recreation is a choice and so long as nobody is getting hurt and the land is not being scarred for future users, people can do whatever they want in the woods; ranging from balancing a Sierra cup on tent stakes over an Esbit tablet to building a Kohanski style bonfire. 'Zall good.
This said, outside of recreational outdoor wood processing, I can't think of a single current "hard use" application that would happen. The historical exception had to do with cutting rope and cables in the early 1900s using Elephant Toenail knives, aka Sunfish or Vest Pocket Axes. See: http://www.mclemoreauction.com/auct...he-Vintage-Elephant-Toenail-Sunfish-Knife.pdf
But I don't see guys in the trades or in tactical situations talking seriously about batonning a knife through rope or cable as a common "hard use" need. Usually, "hard use" means...
Knife as pry bar and lock failure - There are times and activities where a knife blade is stuck in something and needs to be pried back and forth to get it out. This can happen when splitting wood but in a work context it can happen from something as mundane and prying apart something like a crate. Mors Kohanski (and others) sometimes calls a knife a "sharpened pry bar" and opening crates was one of the design goals of the Ka-bar. I think this is a legitimate way to use a knife but I see it a fundamentally dangerous to do with any folding knife. I'm fine and happy that people want to spend their time on this topic, but for my hands.... I need to pry with a knife, I'm using a fixed blade.
To related this back to OP, spine whack tests of any kind seem to be trying to get at the reliability of locks against accidental closure. Best not to rely on the lock, imo.
Hard cutting and lock failure - One thing the thread hasn't discussed, but should I think, is the type of failures that various locks can suffer from hard cutting. By hard cutting, I mean cutting something using extreme opening force on the blade. There are 2 kinds of failure here, I think.
The first is the development of vertical blade play. Knives that rely on stop pins can develop play as the pin deforms and wears. Lock backs can and generally do develop play as the mating faces between the blade and lock bar wear down and as pivot pins wear and deform.
The second form of failure is what I call the rebound or release failure. This happens when cutting through something (like a branch) that requires very strong cutting (opening) force but once the blade passes through the material, the violent rebound or release causes the lock to fail and the blade to close on one's fingers. This is not an unknown failure mode with lock backs, as the strong cutting force can push the lock bar up high enough so as to disengage, allowing it fail at the moment of sudden release.
I'm very, very picky about which lock designs I'll trust for this kind of "hard use". I trust the Opinel, so long as I keep track of the position of the lock ring. I won't trust any lock back to this kind of work, although I can see the merit of the Triad lock design to prevent this type of failure (so long as the stop pin isn't damaged). I am more prone to trust a frame lock than a lock back for this type of cutting.
+ Outdoor use vs "hard use"
+ Knife as pry bar and lock failure
+ Hard cutting and lock failure (Ok, this hasn't come up specifically, but should...)
Outdoor use vs "hard use" - With all due respect to Nutnfancy, Mors Kohanski and Ray Mears, there is never a "need" to baton a knife in the woods. Way too many expeditions have been completed in places with no wood available. Stoves and tents/tarps suffice. Outdoor recreation is a choice and so long as nobody is getting hurt and the land is not being scarred for future users, people can do whatever they want in the woods; ranging from balancing a Sierra cup on tent stakes over an Esbit tablet to building a Kohanski style bonfire. 'Zall good.
This said, outside of recreational outdoor wood processing, I can't think of a single current "hard use" application that would happen. The historical exception had to do with cutting rope and cables in the early 1900s using Elephant Toenail knives, aka Sunfish or Vest Pocket Axes. See: http://www.mclemoreauction.com/auct...he-Vintage-Elephant-Toenail-Sunfish-Knife.pdf
But I don't see guys in the trades or in tactical situations talking seriously about batonning a knife through rope or cable as a common "hard use" need. Usually, "hard use" means...
Knife as pry bar and lock failure - There are times and activities where a knife blade is stuck in something and needs to be pried back and forth to get it out. This can happen when splitting wood but in a work context it can happen from something as mundane and prying apart something like a crate. Mors Kohanski (and others) sometimes calls a knife a "sharpened pry bar" and opening crates was one of the design goals of the Ka-bar. I think this is a legitimate way to use a knife but I see it a fundamentally dangerous to do with any folding knife. I'm fine and happy that people want to spend their time on this topic, but for my hands.... I need to pry with a knife, I'm using a fixed blade.
To related this back to OP, spine whack tests of any kind seem to be trying to get at the reliability of locks against accidental closure. Best not to rely on the lock, imo.
Hard cutting and lock failure - One thing the thread hasn't discussed, but should I think, is the type of failures that various locks can suffer from hard cutting. By hard cutting, I mean cutting something using extreme opening force on the blade. There are 2 kinds of failure here, I think.
The first is the development of vertical blade play. Knives that rely on stop pins can develop play as the pin deforms and wears. Lock backs can and generally do develop play as the mating faces between the blade and lock bar wear down and as pivot pins wear and deform.
The second form of failure is what I call the rebound or release failure. This happens when cutting through something (like a branch) that requires very strong cutting (opening) force but once the blade passes through the material, the violent rebound or release causes the lock to fail and the blade to close on one's fingers. This is not an unknown failure mode with lock backs, as the strong cutting force can push the lock bar up high enough so as to disengage, allowing it fail at the moment of sudden release.
I'm very, very picky about which lock designs I'll trust for this kind of "hard use". I trust the Opinel, so long as I keep track of the position of the lock ring. I won't trust any lock back to this kind of work, although I can see the merit of the Triad lock design to prevent this type of failure (so long as the stop pin isn't damaged). I am more prone to trust a frame lock than a lock back for this type of cutting.
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I am not applying my own standards to anything. Someone visibly moving and pushing on a lockbar is not a matter of opinion. And a refusal to redo the video and the a subsequent disappearance after his excuses werent accepted. I know it was a 056X knife. But I am not going to rummage through a year or two of back posts to satisfy your suspicions.
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- Feb 28, 2011
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Yes, you are. If videos are unreliable, then they're unreliable and video of someone pushing on a lockbar means nothing (for whatever reason). When the video supports your thesis it must be believed and you state it as fact, when it does not you dismiss it as a possible fake and bring up predisposing factors that we cannot know about. That's not a consistent position.
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I love how this thread brought out all the ZT haters. "That couldn't possibly have happened! Well, well, well, your knife isn't proof that OTHER ZT knives don't suck!!!" LOL So much butthurt in this thread, I am loving it.
Also, EXCELLENT idea, Stab. :thumbup:
Also, EXCELLENT idea, Stab. :thumbup:
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Or brings out the above fan boys who cannot take criticism. ^^^
Bottom line, this test shows nothing and is in no way the final "proof" that ZT's are awesome.
BTW, I love how picture #3 shows the tree a little >5-10% cut and like magic it is down in #5. Maybe he had a Becker to finish the job.
GronK
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I never tire of fanboy vs. haters threads. No. Wait. I take that back. I do get tired of them. Oh well, it keeps the kiddies minds occupied so they don't get up to something really sinister.
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- Jan 22, 2011
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In a ZT spine whacking thread
"Well it only failed because of gross abuse of the blade. These tests are indicative of nothing"
In a ZT lock stability thread + ZT batoning thread
"Yup. I knew it. ZT's can totally take the abuse, nothing wrong with the locks. Just as I thought"
Lolwut???
"Well it only failed because of gross abuse of the blade. These tests are indicative of nothing"
In a ZT lock stability thread + ZT batoning thread
"Yup. I knew it. ZT's can totally take the abuse, nothing wrong with the locks. Just as I thought"
Lolwut???
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Bingo!
stabman
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BTW, I love how picture #3 shows the tree a little >5-10% cut and like magic it is down in #5. Maybe he had a Becker to finish the job.
Well, there is the video, although it only shows the final batonning.
Plus I had two witnesses of whom one is a professional engineer...but since he's related to me, I'm sure that isn't good enough for a random internet dude.
I suppose I'm not invited to the Screwdriver family reunion and pig roast?
stabman
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The elusive knife that gets used on Bladeforums.
This thread has been a good read so far. Stabby, you're one of the few Canadians that are ok in my book.
All the other Canadians I know ride bikes, wear ties and try to teach me about the Bible.
Or is that Mormons?? I'm so confused
We have Canadian Mormons...perhaps you're thinking of them.
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Well, there is the video, although it only shows the final batonning.
Plus I had two witnesses of whom one is a professional engineer...but since he's related to me, I'm sure that isn't good enough for a random internet dude.
I suppose I'm not invited to the Screwdriver family reunion and pig roast?
I think his quoted texted was more of a commentary on how negative ZT stuff "has to have more behind it and probably not true" but positive ZT stuff is swallowed up no questions asked, than serious accusations.
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We have Canadian Mormons...perhaps you're thinking of them.
Lol perhaps! I'm glad your ZT took care of business.
stabman
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I think his quoted texted was more of a commentary on how negative ZT stuff "has to have more behind it and probably not true" but positive ZT stuff is swallowed up no questions asked, than serious accusations.
Quite likely, yes...although lately the reverse seems to be more prevalent round these parts.
Indeed; if it had exploded on me, I'd have had to find out if those Mormons were right about the afterlife or not.
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Or brings out the above fan boys who cannot take criticism. ^^^
Bottom line, this test shows nothing and is in no way the final "proof" that ZT's are awesome.
BTW, I love how picture #3 shows the tree a little >5-10% cut and like magic it is down in #5. Maybe he had a Becker to finish the job.
Your opinion isn't a huge concern for me, since your own fanboyism has been well shown. So, hey, you keep on doing your thing, bruh. :thumbup:
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Well, there is the video, although it only shows the final batonning.
Plus I had two witnesses of whom one is a professional engineer...but since he's related to me, I'm sure that isn't good enough for a random internet dude.
I suppose I'm not invited to the Screwdriver family reunion and pig roast?
You had a professional engineer? Wow...proof right there. Sorry, I doubted you.
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What bladeforums have you been on? Lol.
To be honest, when I first read your OP my first thought was "hah! These ZT's CAN take the abuse that all the fanboys cry about. After reading the thread I was a bit shocked to see the fanboys using this post as proof that ZT's are infallible. Abuse = proof when the knife doesn't fail. Abuse = irrelevance when the knife does fail.
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