You people

[Jsega51]

Just to throw this out there as well, as plainly as I can put it, if a patent expires for a lock mechanism, and you want to use it, it's one thing to adapt the lock to your knife design, it's another to copy the entire design of the knife.

 

[Spartan00]

Personally I'm looking forward to RXs upcoming thread in tech support asking Spark or demanding Spark remove some knives from his website as well as some sponsors of HIS forum. Please go make it now ..Again don't bother quoting me your on my ignore list .

 

[RX-79G]

The moral of the story is; It's OK to make a direct copy of someone else's intellectual property as long as you put your own name on it..That is what sets the counterfeiters apart from the "innovators".

Got it

I assume you aren't using a PC with "Windows".

It really has nothing to do with calling someone an innovator. It is a question of whether all copies are acceptable on BF, or just the ones sold by sponsors.


The reality of how technology develops is maybe not a discussion worth getting into since we can't even get the definition of words like "counterfeit" down correctly.

 

[kaotikross]

Copy, clone, whatever. If you enjoy it, it's your money, just be aware that if you post pics of it, everyone here will likely know it's a fake and roast you for it. I'm too busy to oversee somebody else's morality, and not enough of a hypocrite to decry anyone else for however they wish to spend their earnings. I will say you get what you pay for, most times, and you probably shouldn't expect a $30 clone to perform to the same standards as a $400 original.

 

[stonproject]

Your complete and massive over simplification of knives and automobiles all being copies of each other is absurd. No one would ever confuse with or call a Dodge Challenger a Ferrari 458, but they are both 2 door, 4 wheel, rear wheel drive V8 automobiles that run on gasoline so one must be a copy of the other....correct?

So is this knives similarity to a Sebenza 25 subjective? Is it "merely" a copy since it doesn't have a CR logo, or is it a reprehensible clone? Does an item have to be passed off as the original to be bad? If that knife is sold as a "Happy Knife Co. Silver Locker" is it ok then?

I would consider that a counterfeit/clone because of how identical it is to the original, and yeah that's bad.

What about balisongs. Is it immoral to buy a BM bali, BRS, microtech, or any other brand of butterfly knife? They are copies of the Filipinos knife, and buying from the above companies directly effects the income of families in the Phillipines who are still making a living off making balisongs, when its their people who invented that style of knife.

Its super difficult to draw a line when it comes to copies and say what is, and isn't ok. Its too subjective .

I just buy what I like and move on with my life. People should just buy what they enjoy, and carry on!

 

[Wilsonhome]

Patents aren't renewable.

What you just said quoted above is accurate, but also a meaningless statement without context. Companies build patent estates around their technologies, multiple patents, patent continuations, design patents, utility patents, extension grants due to delays at the USPTO, etc.

When you don't know, just say you don't know. It's no big deal, really. I don't know the exact state of the axis lock patent coverage and unless I get more bored I am not going to read them all. I do know that patent term is more complicated than you have stated it to be and patents don't always (or even usually) end exactly 20 years after their initial issue date.

 

[RX-79G]

What you just said quoted above is accurate, but also a meaningless statement without context. Companies build patent estates around their technologies, multiple patents, patent continuations, design patents, utility patents, extension grants due to delays at the USPTO, etc.

When you don't know, just say you don't know. It's no big deal, really. I don't know the exact state of the axis lock patent coverage and unless I get more bored I am not going to read them all. I do know that patent term is more complicated than you have stated it to be and patents don't always (or even usually) end exactly 20 years after their initial issue date.

They don't, but the pertinent reason for an extension is due to a delay caused by the USPTO. BM has been selling Axis lock knives for nearly 20 years, so there wasn't a delay.

I'm sorry to make this sound not complicated, but this is not complicated. Any extensions become part of the patent, and no one has found an extension in any of the patents they've read. It's a 20 year design patent and it has been producing income the whole time. So I'm not sure where this idea of renewing patents comes from.

 

[bhyde]

I assume you aren't using a PC with "Windows".

It really has nothing to do with calling someone an innovator. It is a question of whether all copies are acceptable on BF, or just the ones sold by sponsors.


The reality of how technology develops is maybe not a discussion worth getting into since we can't even get the definition of words like "counterfeit" down correctly.

No, you are changing your tune..Kilgar came up with BHQ and such selling copies, you are merely clinging to that as YOUR point now..

As far as innovators, explain the innovation that is exemplified with nearly exact copies of products such as the obvious Spyderco knives with the Ganzo stamp on them? Feel anything other than the name changed on that? If they can make such good copies, what is stopping them from making something different OR staying away from copying and making designs that are purely their own? It must be easy? Another company already spent time, materials and their own money on designs being copied or counterfeited. Pretty thin line between the two in my opinion.

 

[RX-79G]

No, you are changing your tune..Kilgar came up with BHQ and such selling copies, you are merely clinging to that as YOUR point now..

As far as innovators, explain the innovation that is exemplified with nearly exact copies of products such as the obvious Spyderco knives with the Ganzo stamp on them? Feel anything other than the name changed on that? If they can make such good copies, what is stopping them from making something different OR staying away from copying and making designs that are purely their own? It must be easy? Another company already spent time, materials and their own money on designs being copied or counterfeited. Pretty thin line between the two in my opinion.

Not sure what you mean. SRM has a very good reputation for their own designs - HK even sold one for awhile. One might wonder what Reate was doing a few years ago.


Beyond that, knife design is simply not something so complex or difficult that making an original design is a big deal. Ganzo sells knives shaped like popular knives because they are popular knives. They don't work the same or are constructed the same, but they aren't going to win a Bladeshow award either way. If someone living in Asia like the shape of a Lionsteel knife but prefers G10 and an axis lock, Ganzo makes that. Just like some folks have preferred the Schrade DB7 over the Buck for 40 years.

I don't see knives as sources of incredible innovation. Do you? The Axis lock actually got a patent, but then so did Sog's nearly identical soluation and Spyderco's ball lock.


Innovation is nice, as far as it goes. But service, price, value, reputation and quality is what a company is made out of. I haven't found CRK to have done any mindblowing development work in a long time, but that doesn't mean they are irrelevant.

 

[Gaston444]

What you just said quoted above is accurate, but also a meaningless statement without context. Companies build patent estates around their technologies, multiple patents, patent continuations, design patents, utility patents, extension grants due to delays at the USPTO, etc.

When you don't know, just say you don't know. It's no big deal, really. I don't know the exact state of the axis lock patent coverage and unless I get more bored I am not going to read them all. I do know that patent term is more complicated than you have stated it to be and patents don't always (or even usually) end exactly 20 years after their initial issue date.

You say his statement is accurate, but then you say it is meaningless... I really doubt the simplicity of knife patents allows for building "patent estates" around so simple a "technology"...

What many fail to realize is that in parts of the world where a $6 copy is not available, there will be no $100 "original" for sale... Because $100 is what they make in months...

According to this logic, the rest of the world should be deprived of sound design because in markets where Spyderco will never compete, or be available at any cost, it would be wrong to "copy" a sound design that is not even protected in that foreign country?

I agree it would be nice if they just changed the design a bit, instead of slavishly copying it, but as long as the correct origin is clearly printed on it, it hardly is the outrage of the year...

Americans often have very strange ideas as to what is available overseas... I remember a thread here where someone from the US said to an Egyptian, actually living in Egypt: "Egypt is not the dark ages, you can find, if you really try, some specialized slow-setting boat-repair two-part epoxy resin glue for your project..."

Yeah, like an American knows better what is available in Egypt than an Egyptian... Insert rolleye here...

And the predictable answer from the guy actually living in Egypt: "Egypt is more the Dark Ages than you think..."

Gaston

 

[Wilsonhome]

They don't, but the pertinent reason for an extension is due to a delay caused by the USPTO. BM has been selling Axis lock knives for nearly 20 years, so there wasn't a delay.

I'm sorry to make this sound not complicated, but this is not complicated. Any extensions become part of the patent, and no one has found an extension in any of the patents they've read. It's a 20 year design patent and it has been producing income the whole time. So I'm not sure where this idea of renewing patents comes from.

As I noted above, you are correct that patents aren't renewable. Why go back to a straw man argument?

However, what does the amount of time BM has been selling the product even have to do with when the patent was issued? People sell patent pending products. Was the axis ever sold as PP?

Also, extensions become part of the patent? Where exactly are those extensions recorded? Do they change the priority date or the issue date? What do they do exactly? Hypothetically, let's say I have a 1999 issued patent that has an ~2.5 USPTO delay extension. What is the issue date recorded as? Would it be 1999? Or something else? How do you count the term and where is it recorded? I've heard that it isn't complicated, so I bet you can explain it to me off the top of your head.

Look, I'm not saying you are absolutely, completely wrong, without looking into it much, I would guess the patent is likely to expire sometime in the next several years.

Anyway, this thread is wandering too much. Maybe I will get off here. Final words on counterfeiting and copying intellectual property, during any protected period, is that I don't like it.

 

[Wilsonhome]

You say his statement is accurate, but then you say it is meaningless... I really doubt the simplicity of knife patents allows for building "patent estates" around so simple a "technology"...

What many fail to realize is that in parts of the world where a $6 copy is not available, there will be no $100 "original" for sale... Because $100 is what they make in months...

According to this logic, the rest of the world should be deprived of sound design because in markets where Spyderco will never compete, or be available at any cost, it would be wrong to "copy" a sound design that is not even protected in that foreign country?

I agree it would be nice if they just changed the design a bit, instead of slavishly copying it, but as long as the correct origin is clearly printed on it, it hardly is the outrage of the year...

Americans often have very strange ideas as to what is available overseas... I remember a thread here where someone from the US said to an Egyptian, actually living in Egypt: "Egypt is not the dark ages, you can find, if you really try, some specialized slow-setting boat-repair two-part epoxy resin glue for your project..."

Yeah, like an American knows better what is available in Egypt than an Egyptian... Insert rolleye here...

And the predictable answer from the guy actually living in Egypt: "Egypt is more the Dar Ages than you think..."

Gaston

Yes, I believe that it is wrong to copy a sound design that is not even protected in that country. Not illegal, but wrong. It is illegal to sell those copies in a protected territory which I think is what we are talking about here.

Also, what is with the generalization on Americans? What on earth does that have to do with anything. I was talking about patents and intellectual property protection. That is another straw man, let's attack something completely unrelated to the topic.

 

[RX-79G]

As I noted above, you are correct that patents aren't renewable. Why go back to a straw man argument?

However, what does the amount of time BM has been selling the product even have to do with when the patent was issued? People sell patent pending products. Was the axis ever sold as PP?

Also, extensions become part of the patent? Where exactly are those extensions recorded? Do they change the priority date or the issue date? What do they do exactly? Hypothetically, let's say I have a 1999 issued patent that has an ~2.5 USPTO delay extension. What is the issue date recorded as? Would it be 1999? Or something else? How do you count the term and where is it recorded? I've heard that it isn't complicated, so I bet you can explain it to me off the top of your head.

Look, I'm not saying you are absolutely, completely wrong, without looking into it much, I would guess the patent is likely to expire sometime in the next several years.

Anyway, this thread is wandering too much. Maybe I will get off here. Final words on counterfeiting and copying intellectual property, during any protected period, is that I don't like it.

The PP starts the clock. It is a real patent and either becomes a regular one or expires. The clock starts with its issue.

USPTO delays are the kind that impact the release of a product or the beginning of a license. The fact that a licensed product was sold since the PP days indicates there was no delay.


Find me an extended patent and I'll find the extension dates. But I have never seen one.

Straw?

 

[Rhinoknives1]

And what is the truth? You are one of the people saying that Ganzo is counterfeiting. What counterfeiting?


If your thing is "to hell with people that love them some counterfeit "whatevers", why don't you define what the hell it is you're talking about? Making an argument personal is also a great way of making truth go out the window.

 

[Danke42]

You say his statement is accurate, but then you say it is meaningless... I really doubt the simplicity of knife patents allows for building "patent estates" around so simple a "technology"...

What many fail to realize is that in parts of the world where a $6 copy is not available, there will be no $100 "original" for sale... Because $100 is what they make in months...

According to this logic, the rest of the world should be deprived of sound design because in markets where Spyderco will never compete, or be available at any cost, it would be wrong to "copy" a sound design that is not even protected in that foreign country?

I agree it would be nice if they just changed the design a bit, instead of slavishly copying it, but as long as the correct origin is clearly printed on it, it hardly is the outrage of the year...

Americans often have very strange ideas as to what is available overseas... I remember a thread here where someone from the US said to an Egyptian, actually living in Egypt: "Egypt is not the dark ages, you can find, if you really try, some specialized slow-setting boat-repair two-part epoxy resin glue for your project..."

Yeah, like an American knows better what is available in Egypt than an Egyptian... Insert rolleye here...

And the predictable answer from the guy actually living in Egypt: "Egypt is more the Dar Ages than you think..."

Gaston

You sure hit this one out of the park. Do you really think someone who makes $100 in "months" is out buying Clone Spyderco's because they really want a sound design?

That's not how the decision making process works out there.

 

[bhyde]

Not sure what you mean. SRM has a very good reputation for their own designs - HK even sold one for awhile. One might wonder what Reate was doing a few years ago.


Beyond that, knife design is simply not something so complex or difficult that making an original design is a big deal. Ganzo sells knives shaped like popular knives because they are popular knives. They don't work the same or are constructed the same, but they aren't going to win a Bladeshow award either way. If someone living in Asia like the shape of a Lionsteel knife but prefers G10 and an axis lock, Ganzo makes that. Just like some folks have preferred the Schrade DB7 over the Buck for 40 years.

I don't see knives as sources of incredible innovation. Do you? The Axis lock actually got a patent, but then so did Sog's nearly identical soluation and Spyderco's ball lock.


Innovation is nice, as far as it goes. But service, price, value, reputation and quality is what a company is made out of. I haven't found CRK to have done any mindblowing development work in a long time, but that doesn't mean they are irrelevant.

I didn't mention SRM did I? Perhaps Ganzo and SRM are the same? I can't keep up on that. Could be a full time job?

Incredible innovation? Not really..Fairly simplistic for the most part, but you have to agree that there are some clever designs built into some of these knives. Bottle openers notwhithstanding of course.
Anyhow, I understand alot of what you posted in this quote, and I don't agree with making copies.. Probably ne'er will.



Thanks for the response

 

[Jsega51]

do you shop at knifecnter or Blade HQ cuz if you do then you're supporting dealers who sell copies

There's a big difference between a company producing a knife as a competing an comparable product. It's a different story when a company is producing a cheaply made and inferior product yet making it look and describing it as a competing and comparable product.

As it's been mentioned, the Schrade was a comparable and competing product to the Buck 110. That's the point of a patent expiring, to promote competition.

Some company producing a replica of a $400 knife, yet making it cost $10 is just that. A copy and a crappy product made to look like more than it is.

 

[Wilsonhome]

The PP starts the clock. It is a real patent and either becomes a regular one or expires. The clock starts with its issue.

USPTO delays are the kind that impact the release of a product or the beginning of a license. The fact that a licensed product was sold since the PP days indicates there was no delay.


Find me an extended patent and I'll find the extension dates. But I have never seen one.

Straw?

You contradict yourself in the first line, first you say the PP starts the clock and then you say the issue date. Are those somehow the same thing? If the patent is pending but has been issued, how is it pending? Patent pending just means a patent has been applied for, nothing else. It starts no clock.

How many patents have you investigated without seeing an extension granted. Extensions are common.

 

[stonproject]

There's a big difference between a company producing a knife as a competing an comparable product. It's a different story when a company is producing a cheaply made and inferior product yet making it look and describing it as a competing and comparable product.

As it's been mentioned, the Schrade was a comparable and competing product to the Buck 110. That's the point of a patent expiring, to promote competition.

Some company producing a replica of a $400 knife, yet making it cost $10 is just that. A copy and a crappy product made to look like more than it is.

What do you think of cold steels exact copy of striders popular fixed blade tanto? That's intellectual theft right? So is it immoral to buy cold steels because they blatantly copied strider?

edit; not meaning you said copies make people immoral I'm just curious because that's the general consensus here.

link to cs copy

www.coldsteel.com/Product/80PGTK/G_I_TANTO_W_SECURE-EX_SHEATH.aspx

 

[Danke42]

What do you think of cold steels exact copy of striders popular fixed blade tanto? That's intellectual theft right? So is it immoral to buy cold steels because they blatantly copied strider?

OK as a concession to this well formed post the majority of the site will develop a distaste for both of those brands (just to be fair).