ZDP-189 edge chipping test:

jimnolimit said:
i think im going to test the buck 420HC (vantage select large) right now. im going to start another thread showing what happens to the edges after cutting a sneaker into 25-28 pieces.

p.s. there is a fairly thick piece of plastic (1.5+mm) in the back half of the sneaker to give shape and support around the heel.
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If you're not losing a lot of metal or time, do you think you could do a versus thread like this one. There's a Buck Vantage Pro vs Kershaw Leek thread running now too. Just sayin....

It might be better or less time consuming to turn out one knife at a time if you're doing some testing threads. Thanks for the time - I like this thread a lot! :thumbup:
 
cziv said:
If you're not losing a lot of metal or time, do you think you could do a versus thread like this one. There's a Buck Vantage Pro vs Kershaw Leek thread running now too. Just sayin....

It might be better or less time consuming to turn out one knife at a time if you're doing some testing threads. Thanks for the time - I like this thread a lot! :thumbup:
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im not sure what you mean buy a versus thread? so far i have tested four different knives/steels cutting under nearly the same conditions.

i never started either thread to see which knife or steel is better. IMO these "tests" i do aren't designed for that. my tests are set up and intended to see how these steels react under a very particular set of conditions.

in case you didn't see the link, here it is: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/841501-sneaker-cutting-edge-chipping-test
 
jimnolimit said:
im not sure what you mean buy a versus thread? so far i have tested four different knives/steels cutting under nearly the same conditions.

i never started either thread to see which knife or steel is better. IMO these "tests" i do aren't designed for that. my tests are set up and intended to see how these steels react under a very particular set of conditions.

in case you didn't see the link, here it is: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/841501-sneaker-cutting-edge-chipping-test
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You already did a good one there. That's what I meant - a comparative. Some see the word versus as a fight or something I see it as a comparison and not a battle of steels when used in our forum which isn't the UFC..lol Thanks nice work!
 
cziv said:
You already did a good one there. That's what I meant - a comparative. Some see the word versus as a fight or something I see it as a comparison and not a battle of steels when used in our forum which isn't the UFC..lol Thanks nice work!
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thanks man.

i know you didn't use "versus" as in a fight. i didn't want the thread to be "this steel is better than that steel" type of thread. my goal for these tests was to see how these steels behaved under a certain type of hard use. i am mostly interested in how the steel at the edge wears (as in chipping, rolling, bending, size of damage, etc). as far as a comparison, the only actual conclusion i could come to is that 3 out of 4 knives/steel's could still cut cardboard pretty easily after cutting the shoe.
 
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mogmz said:
With S30V being the "tougher" of the two steels, its interesting that it took more damage during the shoe cutting test. I would have thought the opposite to have happened.
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I do not see this question answered. Anyone has an explanation? Just interested to know.
 
bchan77 said:
I do not see this question answered. Anyone has an explanation? Just interested to know.
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this is part of the mystery. the s30v took on less visual damage when cutting the metal cans, but took on more visual damage cutting the sneaker. i can speculate (educated guess if you will) a reason for this.
 
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this is just a guess:

being that ZDP is harder than S30V, this might have contributed to ZDP chipping more than S30V while impacting metal. in general, a softer metal will flex more than a harder metal before breaking. the sneaker is softer (during impact) but it seems more abrasive (look at the score lines on the steels after cutting the sneakers). this could reasonably explain why both tests show different outcomes. again, this is just a guess.
 
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Jimnolimit, many thanks for your quick reply, your answer seems reasonable to me. So, it is possible that steel A will outperform steel B when cutting one medium, and vice versa when cutting another medium?

When Ankerson said that S30V is tougher than ZDP-189 in post #37, what characteristic is he referring to exactly? Is 'toughness' a relative term, depending on what you are going to cut?

Sorry to be a pest. It is obvious that I am metallurgically challenged.
 
bchan77 said:
Jimnolimit, many thanks for your quick reply, your answer seems reasonable to me. So, it is possible that steel A will outperform steel B when cutting one medium, and vice versa when cutting another medium?

When Ankerson said that S30V is tougher than ZDP-189 in post #37, what characteristic is he referring to exactly? Is 'toughness' a relative term, depending on what you are going to cut?

Sorry to be a pest. It is obvious that I am metallurgically challenged.
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we're all still learning.

there are many factors involved in how a steel will behave. grade of steel, type of heat treat, blade geometry and purpose are the main factors.

i interpret "tougher" as more impact resistant (but tough is a wide term). this was the case when you compare the metal can cutting to the shoe cutting. if you look at ankerson's rope cutting thread, ZDP is in a different (higher) category compared to S30V. this further adds to my some-what educated guess. like i said, pieces of a larger puzzle. between my test and ankerson's test, you can start to see a pattern developing. the more proper tests are performed, the more clear that pattern becomes.
 
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some people think the more sideload an alloy can stand w/o chipping or breaking means tougher. the charpy index sometimes is referred to as a good indicator of toughness. it inyolves impacting a certain amount of weight from a measured distance to the metal . i may not have all the specs correct but this seems to be accepted by many engineers. formite [mete] is a retired metullurgist & maybe he can explain toughness & methods better. --dennis
 
do you think the overall impact in the s30v was caused by some debris or other abrasive that was not in the other shoes thus affecting it more?also I thought that the vanadium carbides in the s30v would have been the very reason it should have held up the best?I'm just here to learn as well-thanks jimnolimit for all your effort
 
DennisStrickland said:
some people think the more sideload an alloy can stand w/o chipping or breaking means tougher. the charpy index sometimes is referred to as a good indicator of toughness. it involves impacting a certain amount of weight from a measured distance to the metal.
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I am one of those people. Laterally flexing a knife is a more practical, real-world test for toughness than the Charpy standard. Knives are often used for prying, but don't undergo impacts from a pre-determined distance after notches are cut into them. Of course, for steel which is not turned into knives, Charpy numbers have relevance.
 
BITEME said:
do you think the overall impact in the s30v was caused by some debris or other abrasive that was not in the other shoes thus affecting it more?also I thought that the vanadium carbides in the s30v would have been the very reason it should have held up the best?I'm just here to learn as well-thanks jimnolimit for all your effort
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IMO: s30v has 4% vanadium carbide. even though 4% is a high amount for steel, 96% of the edge isn't vanadium carbide. the 4% of vanadium carbide will help the steel with some abrasion, but once the material being cut starts wearing out the other 96% of the edge, the vanadium carbide won't help.

i'll tell you this, cutting a sneaker into 26-28 pieces isn't as easy as people might think. part of me want's to re-test the ZDP because i didn't start oiling the blade until late in the test. the blade was getting gummed up with glue causing me to exert more force to make the cuts. with every other steel, i was oiling the blade after each piece was cut.

i didn't do these tests to see which steel would hold up better, i did them to see how each steel behaves under similar conditions. im more interested in how these steels wear out and what happens to the edge to cause it to dull. if i wanted to see which steel was better i would have tested how sharp each knife was after each cut..
 
BITEME said:
do you think the overall impact in the s30v was caused by some debris or other abrasive that was not in the other shoes thus affecting it more?also I thought that the vanadium carbides in the s30v would have been the very reason it should have held up the best?I'm just here to learn as well-thanks jimnolimit for all your effort
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Vanadium carbides at 4% volume can't compare with the 20% chromium content in ZDP-189. Not that all the chromium goes into carbides, but I'm guessing maybe 15% of it just to be generous. The annoying thing about steel datasheets is that they never really tell you what % of chromium is actually carbides and how much is left free in the matrix. Though I assume it's difficult to determine because the heat treatment can alter that percentage. In any case, if you assume it's 15% chromium carbides in ZDP, it wouldn't compare to the 15% vanadium content in CPM-15V. The latter is far more difficult to machine/grind/sharpen and the edge lasts far longer in abrasive cutting tests.

And while S30V is harder to grind than ZDP(at least from my experience), there's more to edge holding than pure wear resistance. I would assume that S30V could have comparable edge holding if it were run at Rc 61-62, but that's very difficult to achieve. As for the damage to S30V cutting the sneakers compared to ZDP, again while both sneakers step in the same dirt, both could have different amounts(or sizes) of stones, glass, and other crud stuck to the soles. From my experience, the steel with the higher carbide volume will be more brittle, especially if it's harder. It's effectively why carbon steels are tougher than stainless steels(having more iron in the matrix helps too).
 
noctis brings in a important variable mentioning the amount of debris varying tread styles might contain. the lateral stress of some mediums certainly impacts the cemetation of the carbides. regardless of carbide hardness, the matrix ability to contain these carbides certainly contributes to edge stability. we ca'nt really surmise a lot of metallurgical information from cutting tests in only one medium.--dennis .. however i really appreciate all efforts to demonstrate alloy abrasion resistance.
 
cool tests, I used my tenacious on a couple cans at work because I had no opener and the edge took plenty of visible damage to the naked eye. then I used my spyderco Wayne Goddard with ats 55 steel, the edge didn't look nearly as bad, but it still dulled it quite a bit. that one has a chunkier saber grind, though. I think the tenacious had both a weaker flat grind, and a slightly more acute edge angle.

mine were far less scientific than yours, it was a couple years ago. but interesting for me none the less.
 
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