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ZDP-189 vs S30V
- Thread starter greenstuffs
- Start date
Because of comments posted in another thread I've decided to withdraw my offer of sending SODAK my Jess horn to use. I guess I'll just try and sell it or leave it sitting in my drawer. Sorry. It really is very cute to see Cliffs sheep start acting and posting just like him.
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Let's leave it alone. I am not Cliff's sheep, I am quite able of forming my own opinions out of study, use, and common sense. However, the work that Cliff and many others on this board have done and some scientific texts on metallurgy do greatly shape my opinions on knives. I freely admit I am very new to knives, and I have a long way to go to even be considered knowledgable, but I do have some level of intelligence and common sense. You were basically taunting me to chip the hell out of a knife Cliff lent me, and a ZDP Jess Horn that I thinned out and paid good money for. When I call you out on it and offer to have you test your knives (Caly Jr. and Jess Horn)in the same manner you all of the sudden go to the sheep card and are above it all. Did you notice the winking smily and "just kidding" in the post? Either way, I think you proved you would rather watch other people do damaging testing to their knives than you would do on your own. I clearly agree with you on that point, I think I said it about 20 different ways. It is just very hypocritical of you to get on a high horse about testing edge properties of thin and brittle knives cutting metal in your posts (basically using a taunting "apology" to get me to do it, and saying my using an endura to test on the metal and the fact that people use disposable razors and wire cutters to cut twist ties like that justified the testing), then not do the same tests yourself with your knives when offered the opportunity to do comparitive testing with the same twist tie. All you seem capable of doing lately is arguing with anything Cliff says and anyone that agrees with him, which is a shame, because I think you do have a lot of knowledge on knives and especially sharpening (much more than me) that could be very valuble to many of us on the board. I will take my share of the blame for letting the discussions go downhill, but I think you should look at how some of your posts read.
Like I already told you in that thread I have already cut the same type of twist ties with an M2 blade that was ground very very thin, much thinner and also harder than either the Jess Horn or the Caly JR. I find it very funny that you just assume the small wire tie will destroy the U2. Unlike you I don't assume that a little wire will damage a hard thin steel edge as much as it does to a thicker softer one. I personally think the U2 would cut the tie with little to no damage. People have been testing edges and yes even thin edges by cutting much thicker metal like hangers and nails for a very long time. SO I guess the scope of work for the U2 is cutting only paper and cardboard. If that makes me a hypocrit in your eyes I guess that is fine. I can take it I've been atact by Cliff and his sheep before and probably will be again. Glad to see you've learned from Cliff how to tell me what the hidden meaning behind my posts are. You learn well.
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Your quote from the other thread
Yeah those little wire twist ties on toys are edge killers. I even chipped a all hard M2 blade I made cutting a toy out. A small wire cutters is the best for those things.
edited to ad.
That DMT D8xx is worth every cent.
Yeah, you really show that you believe knives are the best tool for those thick twist ties with that quote, don't you? Really a ringing endorsement for using high hardness, thin, brittle knives on those little twist ties. Maybe that's why you won't test any of your other knives on them? Maybe the U2 or Jess Horn will handle it, but with your prior experience and the words from so many others in that thread I will just use the Byrd meadowlark that is thinned out to test on the twist tie. Much cheaper and easier to replace than if I butcher the U2 or Jess Horn, when I still have a lot of other testing I want to perform on them before I get to the harder testing. Either way, have a good one, and keep on doing whatever you do to stay happy. By the way, is there a hidden meaning in your post that wire cutters are the best thing for those ties, as your thin full hard M2 knife chipped out on those twist ties? Or am I missing some code message in there? You do say I read too much into what you say.
BAAAAAA! Cliff, please herd me! I am off from the flock!
WOW! Where did I ever say a knife was the best thing to cut wire ties? I think I said in that quote of mine you reposted that small wire cutters were the best thing to cut them. Again you are telling me what I mean in my own posts. Just like you continued to go after me in the other thread more than 2 different posts after Iinformed you I was done posting in the thread. Then you come here and do the same. You don't wander far from the flock do you? I'm not real sure how you have perceived any ill intent or taunting from my posts. I even said I was sorry for suggesting the test but that even had some other meaning according to you. I'm sure Cliff is very proud.
cliff how do there 2 compare when you want to pry stuff apart, like opening metal cans of paint etc, not really cutting but still...
i´d guess zdp is harder so its stronger but when it snaps it snaps without giving a warning because of the higher carbon content and higher hardness, less flexible, is this correct you´d say?
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You said you were done with the other thread, then you come into this one later crying about things posted after you were "done" with it, saying things in that thread caused you to reconsider donating one of your knives for this test, and personally attacking me by calling me one of Cliff's sheep. That is what prompted me to respond. Do whatever you want with your own knife, that is your right. And maybe I should call you one of Thomas' sheep, as you seem to blindly agree with him on everything to do with 13C26 and Kershaw's use of it. That wouldn't piss you off, would it? Or are you able to form your own opinions, like me, and just because you often agree with someone you aren't their sheep, you just agree with them. And I would like to apologize to all for sidetracking this thread so badly, but sometimes my buttons can be pushed. Lets leave it alone. We won't agree on this, and according to you I took your comments the wrong way. I don't think so, but whatever. I took them as sarcastic and taunting, and I usually respond to stuff like that, and I did. You moved on to another thread to call me Cliff's sheep. Maybe I need to get thicker skinned or use the ignore fuction. Again, sorry to all for the sidetrack, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Sodak,
I haven't decided yet which model but it will come from the Titan Series.I just don't know if I want a small knife like the B06 or if I want to go with the B12,B15 in the larger folders. I wish I could afford one of each! That would solve the problem. Which series are you looking at?
MPE
I haven't decided yet which model but it will come from the Titan Series.I just don't know if I want a small knife like the B06 or if I want to go with the B12,B15 in the larger folders. I wish I could afford one of each! That would solve the problem. Which series are you looking at?
MPE
WOW! GunMike I'm sorry . I now see where the problem is if you think that is crying about another non named thread and if you feel that is a personal atack on you even though your not named or even refered to. Kind of like me just simply asking you if you tried cutting the twist tie with the U2 or JH, somehow thats taunting you. I even said I was sorry for suggesting such a thing, and that wasn't even good enough for you. Well I am sorry that you feel that way. Please feel free to ignore my posts and move on.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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Yes, however both of them would be really bad in that respect and have little to no ductility. The main benefit to ZDP-189 is that it is being promoted as a cutting steel whereas S30V was promoted strongly as a tough tactical steel (which it isn't) and that creates the problem.
Generally, for metal cutting you want the cutters to be as hard as possible to prevent deformation. The critical point is to have the cutter geometry stable under the lateral forces, or shape it to minimize them directly, or cut in such a way to prevent them. Having the steel softer just means it will bend more under the loads, it won't crack, but it will deform and is just as broken.
Alvin discussed this awhile ago using one of his knives to cut a bunch of wire. You would want to do solid press cuts with a very hard cutting board, mild steel is good. It is really tricky with hollow grinds due to the way they "pinch" in such materials and why in general, unless you have jedi level skills, I would tend to recommend a flat grind. I spent some time cutting up tv cables to check method, you want a very fluid and fairly fast cut. Hesitate and you leave the edge in the cable.
If you are checking knives for durability for such work you had better do a LOT of samples, at least a dozen and make sure you are getting some kind of stable mean/median behavior. Otherwise you are not going to be making inferences on the steel but just the random influences due to method.
-Cliff
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I don't know what you guys are talking about.
But I do use my EDC, to cut plastic wire ties, instead of going to get the snips at work, all the time.
A twist tie with a .032" piece if steel wire through the middle of it. Not your average plastic Zip tie.
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Thanks for the info, Cliff. Like I have said, I am new at this, and metal cutting isn't a field I have much experience in, except for my fun with that pesky wire in that twist tie. My technique sucks, but maybe my POS beaters I got for Christmas, and the Meadowlark (after ruining the POS's from Christmas, first) will help me to improve my technique. The beaters are probably so soft as to be useless, and make the AUS 6A in my CRKT look like full hard ZDP 189 in comparison, but I may as well attempt to get some useful info out of them. Four of the 6 knives have liner locks that don't even engage, so I may put the handles in my vice, tighten the pivots until the blades don't move (that I know they can do, because I tried that when I noticed the locks didn't work) and beat the blades through the wire with a mallet, using a quick, medium power smack. If the first one breaks from that then I will refine my technique. With the Byrd I will probably try to just use my paws for the cut, and we will see how it works. I will try to use the quick, decisive cuts you mentioned. However, considering that one was already beat around pretty good, maybe the mallet would work well on it, also. Sodak is also sending me a couple blades in SR101 and INFI, amongst others, so I will use those on the twist tie. They definately seem suited for the job. Frankly, his blades will probably go through the wire like it's thread with a quick chop, but I will find out. He mentioned batonning the cut to make sure you cut straight through the wire, so I give him full credit for the spine smacking idea. Much thanks, Sodak. Not many people are trusting enough to send off their high dollar knives for an idiot newbie like me to test, I thank you for it. Oh yeah, enjoy the Spyderco R2 I sent you and feel free to review it with your likes and dislikes. Don't worry about scratching it up or dinging it some, those are beauty marks! The only mod from stock is the splinter picker tip by STR, as the factory tip was slightly thicker with a little drop to it. If you want to borrow anything else just drop me a line, but my collection isn't nearly as extensive or nice as your's is.
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OK, I'll let it go, pardon me for jumping to conclusions. I guess I can let the guilt of feeling responsible for a Jess Horn ZDP not being involved in this test go off my back. If you can't find a seller for it I highly recommend you use it, though. I thought I would hate it when I saw the pictures of it, and I only bought it for the steel. But it fits the hand well, disappears in the pocket, and cuts like hell with it's thin stock and thin edge. The main thing I didn't like on mine was that the choil and tip area were a bit thicker and more obtuse than the center of the blade, but it has a nice, pointy tip that pierces great and cuts with great precision. I think you would like it as a user, and as a guy who like to thin out blades I think you would enjoy using your D8XX to thin it out.
It’s good to see now that the shepherd Cliff has now posted, basically the same thing I have been saying, that cutting a small wire tie isn’t such a evil thing after all. The only part I minorly disagree with him on is unless the edge bevel is a lot smaller than .023” wide there isn’t any difference between a hollow, flat or any other type of blade grind cutting it.
As for my Jess Horn I thought I'd like it alot by the pics, and the steel was another big plus. But, when I got it and held it I knew I didn't like it at all. Therefore I haven't used it and tried to sell it with no luck. It's a great knife and really the type of knife I look for but it just didn't fit me well.
As for my Jess Horn I thought I'd like it alot by the pics, and the steel was another big plus. But, when I got it and held it I knew I didn't like it at all. Therefore I haven't used it and tried to sell it with no luck. It's a great knife and really the type of knife I look for but it just didn't fit me well.
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is that like the ones that they use to hold down all the kids toys in the dam boxes
xmas i bet i cut 20-30 of them off with both my zdp delica and my cpm154 boxcutter
i had ever so slight nick /bend ing th eedge of both after the fact
realy nothing i would ever care about even being a nut about having a nice edge
could i have made my boxcutter so there would have been no problem sure but thats the tradeoff
BTW im still not sold on the zdp stuff yet