ZDP-189 vs S30V

[db]

Yup. those are the ones we are talking about.

 

[sodak]

Sodak,

I haven't decided yet which model but it will come from the Titan Series.I just don't know if I want a small knife like the B06 or if I want to go with the B12,B15 in the larger folders. I wish I could afford one of each! That would solve the problem. Which series are you looking at?
MPE

I'm looking at the Titan also, either the 12 or 15. I like the looks of the 12, but WH owners tell me the 15 is a more useful design... I wish I could get both also...

 

[gunmike1]

It’s good to see now that the shepherd Cliff has now posted, basically the same thing I have been saying, that cutting a small wire tie isn’t such a evil thing after all. The only part I minorly disagree with him on is unless the edge bevel is a lot smaller than .023” wide there isn’t any difference between a hollow, flat or any other type of blade grind cutting it.
As for my Jess Horn I thought I'd like it alot by the pics, and the steel was another big plus. But, when I got it and held it I knew I didn't like it at all. Therefore I haven't used it and tried to sell it with no luck. It's a great knife and really the type of knife I look for but it just didn't fit me well.

Yes, it's not an evil thing, but it chips out your all hard M2 knife and you suggest using wire cutters for cutting it. It also chipped out my S30V, VG-10, and AUS 6A blades. You don't seem to want to test out your newer blades on it, I obviously don't want to test out a 1 of a kind (though it can be duplicated for about $100) U2 and my $70 Jess Horn that I thinned out on it. We can do whatever we want with our own things. As has obviously been proven I don't know much about cutting metal with knives. Remember that whole newbie thing? If I was so much Cliff's sheep I would have spouted out line for line what he said before he had to, right?

Generally, for metal cutting you want the cutters to be as hard as possible to prevent deformation. The critical point is to have the cutter geometry stable under the lateral forces, or shape it to minimize them directly, or cut in such a way to prevent them. Having the steel softer just means it will bend more under the loads, it won't crack, but it will deform and is just as broken.

Agrees a lot with what you said, however SGPS at a reported 62 RC (I think Sodak can attest that sometimes knives aren't nearly as hard as they are reported) doesn't seem to be in the ideal range, though it should do better than S30V.

How hard is your all hard M2 blade? I've personally never used the steel, especially in custom heat treated form. What grind is your all hard M2 knife? What is the thickness of the edge, and what is the edge angle? Just trying to get a feel for the geometry. Also, what technique did you use to achieve your chipping, and how large were the chips?

Alvin discussed this awhile ago using one of his knives to cut a bunch of wire. You would want to do solid press cuts with a very hard cutting board, mild steel is good. It is really tricky with hollow grinds due to the way they "pinch" in such materials and why in general, unless you have jedi level skills, I would tend to recommend a flat grind. I spent some time cutting up tv cables to check method, you want a very fluid and fairly fast cut. Hesitate and you leave the edge in the cable.

Yes, db, you provided plenty of detail on technique, cutting board, ect., didn't you, just like Cliff did here. You especially went into detail on the technique, as that would be the critical factor involved in cutting metal. That was obvious from your posts. Since I lack any and all metal cutting technique, I fear my technique may lead an otherwise capable blade to "leave it's edge in the cable", or in my case, just chip it out bad because I laterally load the edge. The comments on the hollow grind (which you disagree with) also bother me, considering how thin and high the hollow grind of the U2 is.

Edit to add: What references do you have or testing have you done on metal cutting with that leads you to disagree with Cliff's recommendation of using a flat grind instead of hollow unless the edge gets well under .023" (assuming non jedi skills, here)? With a thicker edge it would make some sense to me that the primary grind becomes less important, but I am speaking from ignorance on the subject here. How thin does the edge have to be before the primary grind becomes critical? Under .020", or .017", or .015", or .010"? The U2 is around 4 degrees per side (but currently with a 15 degree microbevel) with an edge bevel under .005", for reference, so that would seem to be thin enough where it's hollow grind becomes important in your mind, or I am offbase with that? Also, when the edge starts getting thinner, how much does the angle and width of the microbevel effect the performance on cutting metal? I am trying to study up on metal cutting with knives now, as these threads have got me interested in it, and whatever sources you have used or work you have done on it interest me.

If you are checking knives for durability for such work you had better do a LOT of samples, at least a dozen and make sure you are getting some kind of stable mean/median behavior. Otherwise you are not going to be making inferences on the steel but just the random influences due to method.

-Cliff

Oh yeah, this is exactly the same thing you were saying db, wasn't it?

Either way, it is a moot point since I will not be using the U2 or my Jess Horn to test on metal, as my technique sucks and even if the knives are capable of making the cuts I would probably screw them up. They are harder to replace than the meadowlark or the turd knives I plan on using. My perogative, just like you can do whatever you want with your stuff. Sodak was nice enough to send me off a herd of knives, including some in INFI and SR101 that he said I can use on that little bugger. I have a feeling they will laugh at that twist tie if I use a quick chop.

 

[db]

WOW you really are becoming just like Cliff with your postings. Yes my M2 blade did chip cutting one of those twist ties getting a toy out of its box. I was trying to avoid scratching or cutting the toy or my self as most of my attention was really focused on my excited 4 year old who didn’t seem to care at all that I had a very sharp knife, he just wanted his toy very badly and quicker than I could free the damn thing from it’s box. For that reason alone a wire cutters is a better choice, even if there wasn’t any edge damage. The edge chip was small and sharpened right out.
As for the hollow flat or any other type of blade grind affecting a cut. I have no proof no resources no published papers no links no Cliff telling me what to think nor do I need any. It’s my view that if the edge bevel is, lets just say, 1/8 high and the thing you are cutting, doesn’t matter what it is really, is only 1/16 thick the item is cut before it is ever touched by the blade grind. This really is just like posting with Cliff. Do I really need references to have a valid viewpoint? Why all the questions if it’s a moot point? It really doesn’t matter I guess what I post you just give it the meaning you want anyways. I surely didn’t say I had said the exact same thing as Cliff. Just like all I did was simply ask you if you had tried cutting the twist tie with the U2 or Jess Horn and some how to you that was me taunting you to destroy your knife. I even said I was sorry for suggesting such a thing. And that wasn’t even good enough for you. The sheep just charge when the big bad wolf sticks his nose out.
I’m glad to hear you found your sponsor for your knife hobby. I haven’t even had the pleasure of trying any INFI, or even to handle a Busse.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How thin does the edge have to be before the primary grind becomes critical?

The primary grind should always be critical because otherwise the primary grind is inefficient. Even when the material being cut is light, the contact forces cn be of significant width due to supporting material. The plastic and synthetic wrap of a tv cable for example.

Of course most knives are not so ground, the Strider hollow grind for example is much better at opening cans than the Opinel flat grind, but this isn't comparing hollow vs flat it is comparing thick vs thin. In the above I am assuming both have been force responce optomized.

The main difference comes from a basic consideration of the purpose of primary grinds. The easiest way to understand it is to compare the extreme hollow grind, shaped like a "T" compared to a flat grind with both of them in a material and now bend one of them sideways.

Note the "T" shape will concentrate the force at the apex of the "T" and break easy. You can notice the behavior easily in wood choppers but the same principles holds in all cutting.

You can also see if if you cut into softer materials with hollow/flat and then gently pry sideways and watch how the flat grind will tend to roll/pop out of the cut but the hollow can be locked into the cut. You can note similar behavior in tips.

I have an all hard M2 blade, flat grind, right to the edge, 0.005" thick, which is out on passaround. Once you get some slack time with your current work then drop me an email and I can arrange to have it sent to you. Also, if you go into rec.knives and start talking about your work then Alvin will likely make you a 1095/M2 full hard blade anyway.

I'll also be getting some M2 blades made for the evaulation group anyway so you will have the chance to use one there, but you will never know when it is the M2 one.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Whatever, db.

My Manix was chipped in a similar way to your M2 knife. I was in a hurry to open the toy for my daughter, used improper technique, and chipped it. I agree wire cutters are best used in situations like this. I then used improper technique again and chipped 2 other knives. If I used proper technique I may well have not chipped the Manix or the other knives. I now have a better concept of proper technique for cutting metal, however I got none of that information from you. My inexperience with cutting metals made me a little gun shy about using much thinner and more brittle knives to cut the same metal that chipped my other knives.

Instead of offering suggestions about using proper technique and the proper way to cut metals with knives, you just suggest I use the U2 and Jess Horn. I am reluctant. Then, you spout off how you thought I was into testing knife edges, and you "apologize" for suggesting I use the Jess Horn or the U2 to cut metal. At that point I still had no concept of proper technique of cutting metal, as was obvious by my posts of how I had cut the twist ties. You then state you don't assume anything about how knife edges will cut metal, but you think the U2 will fare fine. If you had offered some sort of example of you using a similar knife to cut a twist tie like that without suffering damage, or anything useful like the technique suggestions Cliff gave, maybe you could have been taken seriously and given me informative and useful advice. All you had offered to this point was that your all hard M2 knife chipped, not very reassuring. Then I am Cliff's sheep. Funny how the only thing you really offer is name calling and a couple anecdotes, but nothing that in anyway would help me to come around to your viewpoint that the U2 would have no problem cutting that metal.

Then Cliff posts, you actually agree with him, almost completely, except for the primary grind type not mattering unless it is below a specific edge width, to the thousanth of an inch. Since you down me for being Cliff's sheep, I figure you must have independant knowledge to verify what Cliff is saying, because you almost always disagree with him, and were specific about the grind type not mattering unless the edge was significantly thinner than .023". You would be one of his sheep if you just accepted his post on blind faith, but you profess that isn't so. I only asked where you learned that from, and how much thinner than .023" does the edge have to be before the grind type matters (in your mind). I also asked about edge angles and microbevels, since you seemed so sure about your knowledge of metal cutting with knives in that post. And by your own statement, logic says you believe the primary hollow grind would be an issue on a knife like the U2 with an edge at 4 degrees and under .005", as most would consider that well below .023". Seemed like a fair question, and as I actually try to learn from reading about what others have done I asked for your references or personal experiences so that I can gain knowledge. If liking the fact that Cliff backs up his assertions with real numbers, science, pictures, and references to verify what he is saying makes me a sheep, so be it. Anyone with half a brain knows the real sheep is the one who doesn't ask for references, and who just accepts a person's statements on blind faith without requiring any proof, just anecdotes and "I said so". To not require any form of evidence or proof of a person's statements is to be naive at best, and just plain gullible. Those are the types that infomercials are made for.

The explanation you then give about the grinds not mattering seems to go off of a lot of assumptions, which you say I shouldn't do about the cutting ability of knives on metal. Yeah, your edge may be a 1/8" long, and the item you are cutting might only be 1/16" thick, but wouldn't it seem an ultrathin hollow grind would chip all the way out to the primary grind easier under lateral loading, while a flat grind with a thicker edge may not? Again we are talking about humans making these cuts, not a jedi level masters, so some minor lateral loading is bound to happen. Wouldn't it then reason that a flat grind may give you a little more room for error, and be a better overall choice for cutting metal? (sorry, I just noticed Cliff's post covering this, but I have already put some work into this paragraph so I will let it ride). This is the type of discussion I was looking for so maybe I could learn something from you, but all you have to offer is insults and B.S. when someone asks you to back up your assertions. You just go on a rant like a child throwing a tantrum when you are asked for any details beyond your anecdotes.

Have fun, and keep on trolling, db. You sure are good at hooking me in!

 

[db]

Whatever, db.

My Manix was chipped in a similar way to your M2 knife. I was in a hurry to open the toy for my daughter, used improper technique, and chipped it. I agree wire cutters are best used in situations like this. I then used improper technique again and chipped 2 other knives. If I used proper technique I may well have not chipped the Manix or the other knives. I now have a better concept of proper technique for cutting metal, however I got none of that information from you. My inexperience with cutting metals made me a little gun shy about using much thinner and more brittle knives to cut the same metal that chipped my other knives.

Instead of offering suggestions about using proper technique and the proper way to cut metals with knives, you just suggest I use the U2 and Jess Horn. I am reluctant. Then, you spout off how you thought I was into testing knife edges, and you "apologize" for suggesting I use the Jess Horn or the U2 to cut metal. At that point I still had no concept of proper technique of cutting metal, as was obvious by my posts of how I had cut the twist ties. You then state you don't assume anything about how knife edges will cut metal, but you think the U2 will fare fine. If you had offered some sort of example of you using a similar knife to cut a twist tie like that without suffering damage, or anything useful like the technique suggestions Cliff gave, maybe you could have been taken seriously and given me informative and useful advice. All you had offered to this point was that your all hard M2 knife chipped, not very reassuring. Then I am Cliff's sheep. Funny how the only thing you really offer is name calling and a couple anecdotes, but nothing that in anyway would help me to come around to your viewpoint that the U2 would have no problem cutting that metal.

Then Cliff posts, you actually agree with him, almost completely, except for the primary grind type not mattering unless it is below a specific edge width, to the thousanth of an inch. Since you down me for being Cliff's sheep, I figure you must have independant knowledge to verify what Cliff is saying, because you almost always disagree with him, and were specific about the grind type not mattering unless the edge was significantly thinner than .023". You would be one of his sheep if you just accepted his post on blind faith, but you profess that isn't so. I only asked where you learned that from, and how much thinner than .023" does the edge have to be before the grind type matters (in your mind). I also asked about edge angles and microbevels, since you seemed so sure about your knowledge of metal cutting with knives in that post. And by your own statement, logic says you believe the primary hollow grind would be an issue on a knife like the U2 with an edge at 4 degrees and under .005", as most would consider that well below .023". Seemed like a fair question, and as I actually try to learn from reading about what others have done I asked for your references or personal experiences so that I can gain knowledge. If liking the fact that Cliff backs up his assertions with real numbers, science, pictures, and references to verify what he is saying makes me a sheep, so be it. Anyone with half a brain knows the real sheep is the one who doesn't ask for references, and who just accepts a person's statements on blind faith without requiring any proof, just anecdotes and "I said so". To not require any form of evidence or proof of a person's statements is to be naive at best, and just plain gullible. Those are the types that infomercials are made for.

The explanation you then give about the grinds not mattering seems to go off of a lot of assumptions, which you say I shouldn't do about the cutting ability of knives on metal. Yeah, your edge may be a 1/8" long, and the item you are cutting might only be 1/16" thick, but wouldn't it seem an ultrathin hollow grind would chip all the way out to the primary grind easier under lateral loading, while a flat grind with a thicker edge may not? Again we are talking about humans making these cuts, not a jedi level masters, so some minor lateral loading is bound to happen. Wouldn't it then reason that a flat grind may give you a little more room for error, and be a better overall choice for cutting metal? (sorry, I just noticed Cliff's post covering this, but I have already put some work into this paragraph so I will let it ride). This is the type of discussion I was looking for so maybe I could learn something from you, but all you have to offer is insults and B.S. when someone asks you to back up your assertions. You just go on a rant like a child throwing a tantrum when you are asked for any details beyond your anecdotes.

Have fun, and keep on trolling, db. You sure are good at hooking me in!

Please tell me again who is going off on rants and who is insulting who. I've been putting up with your personal atacts on me ever since I just simply asked if you tried cutting with another knife that was harder than the knives you were testing on a twist tie. I even quit posting in the thread and said I was sorry as to prevent an arguement. And then you keep insulting and atacking me even by name. Then you come into this thread and do the same. And you then demand I should explain every little detail on every little small point so you can argue even more? Do you really need someone to tell you how to do every little thing? Seems like Butcher-Block had no trouble with cutting the same type of ties. Just for you I did search for a twist tie today to cut with my Caly Jr, does that make you happy?

 

[db]

GunMike you are pretty good at rewriteing what really happened almost as good as Cliff.
Funny I never did suggest that you try cutting the twist tie with the U2 or Jess Horn, I just asked if you did.
Oh yeh and you had no idea on proper technique. I guess I should just repete everyone elses post for you until I'm sure you got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dog of War
Wire, even copper when it's bigger than like 20 ga., can be hell on knife edges. I'm sure it's due to lateral stress right at the apex, which is very hard
to control unless you're deliberately cutting the wire held securely on a solid surface and carefully applying force straight down.
Yeah, I still held the twist tie in one hand, looped it around the knives, and then cut, so there was definately some lateral stressing going onto the edges.
When cutting braided speaker wire that was flat on the table there were no chipping issues at all with the Manix, so technique is very important.

No, I don't want you to finance my knife hobby, and if you took it that way you are way too literal in your readings of things. You gave a sarcastic, baiting "apology" , or at least it seemed that way, and I was in a bad mood at the time. I apologize for being pissy.

I think I will test my ZDP Horn (I'm 90% sure I will right now), and I will talk to Cliff, and if he gives the OK I will do the test on the U2 also, probably at a 20 degree microbevel, but only if my Horn doesn't have a really bad experience, even if he does give the OK. He may well call me an idiot and revoke my priveleges with the U2 for asking, but we'll see. Considering the relatively brittle steels and the fact that cutting .032" metal isn't really in the scope of work I pictured for the knives, it seems to me like chopping a cinder block with a ZDP Endura, just way out of the scope of work for the knife and asking for trouble. Why don't you e mail me your address, and I will send you a piece of the twist tie in the mail and lets see how your Caly Jr. does, too. I would be interesting to see the difference in performance of VG-10, ZDP, and SGPS at thin angles. Test to consist of laying the tie flat on a cutting board, then push cutting straight through. Hopefully I can get my sharpness levels up again now that my fingers are a little better, I know I will need it and good control to not twist a chunk out of the edge.

 

[db]

Well, I now see if you attack and go after me for long enough Papa Cliff will reward you with the offer of another knife. You’ve done well young Jedi. You really are just what this forum needs, another smart as s, know-it-all poster who acts just like Cliff.

 

[gunmike1]

Whatever, you are going on my ignore list so we don't drag down anymore threads with our bickering, db. We obviously have very different perspectives on things, and you like to continually troll by calling me Cliff's sheep and son, and I can't let it go, so the ignore function will be my salvation from you. I came to these boards to try to learn, and I have a couple years of college engineering under my belt before I stayed in the workforce for good (going back and forth from school to the workforce to pay my way through school took it's toll on me, and I was making better money than my buddies who got degrees, but I digress) which taught me a bit about experiments in my labs, proofs in math, and citing sources for your conclusions, so sorry if I like seeing results from your work or references when you make statements about knife performance as if it is fact. You must have studied about the stuff you are writing about, or have much personal experience to be saying primary grinds don't matter at all unless the primary grind is "well" under a specific edge width, which you specified to the thousanth. Either that, or you made that up, or must just be someone's sheep, spouting off what they told you. If you have limited experience with a subject, profess to have knowledge, then resort to your childish name calling when I ask for references and your experiences to back up your assertions it is hard to take you seriously. If asking for specifics makes me Cliff's sheep, Baaaa!. Hell I even tried to put an end to it in this thread by letting it go and suggesting you use the Jess Horn if you can't sell it, but you just went back to calling me Cliff's sheep and made assertions on metal cutting that I questioned. Sorry for suggesting you actually have details on your experience or where you have learned such knowledge instead of being your sheep and blindly accepting your answer. We will obviously not agree on any of this, as it has degraded to the point of you just baiting me woth more sheep and child comments. So you will now be on my ignore list, and I won't bring down other threads by dealing with you. We obviously can't have a good discourse, and brought this thread so far off topic as to almost forget the whole point of it. I apologize to all for that. So, farewell, db. May your edges be convex and pretty and even, or however the hell you like them.

Children will be children, idiots will be idiots, and as my brother in law learned yesterday when you roll around in crap with pigs, you only get covered with their crap. Just a couple general observations, not an attack on anyone or anything.

Sodak, free to use the Spyderco R2 I lent you in the test to see how VG-10 does compared to ZDP and S30V. The edge is polished up to Spyderco ultrafine now, so it definately isn't optimized for the uses you are going to test, but I am guessing you are going to give them all a sharpening before the tests, anyway. Since you have an edge pro you can probably get them all to a pretty consistent angle and finish, much better than I can. Anyway, it already has a couple scratches and dings, so don't worry about stuff like that. It is a user, and I would be interested to see how it does.

 

[db]

Good, I’m very glad you will be ignoring my posts from now on. It has been very tiring trying to correct all of your posts that are full of wrong meanings of what I’ve posted and rewriting of what was really posted. I hope you also will quit insulting me, calling me names, attacking me, or referring to me in any way. Since your ignoring me it should be easy for you to do. However, with your track record of continuing to do so to me in the other thread I will not be surprised to see you continue with your attacks on me. Here"s hoping for the best.

 

[sodak]

Gunmike1,

Thanks, I'll include it in the test. I'll start another thread about that soon.

 

[aberg]

I am not talking about db or anyone specifically but could someone please enlighten me about all the Cliff attacks I have read here (the forum not the thread)? I am fairly new here but I have read many of Cliff's archived posts as well as his website and so far have seen nothing offensive or attacking from Cliff to anyone. I have seen many discussions (arguments if you like) between Cliff and others but they all seem to me to be exactly like what took place between me, as well as other students, and the better college professors I had. I don't have very much knife knowlege compared to Cliff or many others on this forum but my knowlege increases sligthtly each time I read an intelligent discussion. Isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about? I agree that some of Cliff's findings at first seemed counterintuitive to me but since he always has actual findings from experiments he or others have done (and he regularly cites them) it was easy for me to be convinced that it was my intuition which was wrong. I have never met or corresponded with Cliff except on this forum (and signing up for his newest passaround experiment) but I believe that if he were to post something which directly contradicted my findings and I presented mine with accompanying supportive numbers which were correctly arrived at, that Cliff would at least double check his own and freely admit he was wrong if that were the case. What is so terrible about being wrong? The only way to advance knowlege is through experimentation and then arguing a point. That is one person posits something someone else with a differing opinion attacks that position and back and forth it goes until one argument is overcome by the facts of the other. Then both sides win since knowlege is the goal not being correct. Please correct me if I am wrong (again). Thanks

 

[gunmike1]

Gunmike1,

Thanks, I'll include it in the test. I'll start another thread about that soon.

I look forward to it.

Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... I believe that if he were to post something which directly contradicted my findings and I presented mine with accompanying supportive numbers which were correctly arrived at, that Cliff would at least double check his own and freely admit he was wrong if that were the case.

Yeah, it happens on a fairly regular basis, the critical aspect is the facts/logic part. This was founded by Socrates a few thousand years ago, some people however have still have not caught on with the idea of critical thinking and rejection of authority based propogration of ideas. It doesn't matter who says something, it only matters what was said. The minute someone says listen to me because of who I am then they should be ignored.

Similar, I would strongly suggest that the minute you see anyone use a personal attack them you immediately put them on the ignore list, assuming your purpose here is to actually learn about knives. Don't feed the trolls, they thrive on attention, any attention. They are happiest when they drag you down to their level because they know they have no ability to participate at yours.

Concerning the evaluation group, your goal should actually be to contend what is currently "known" to determine if it is actually a fact and then to extend what you have shown. With a current user group of several dozen it would be highly unlikely that there will be no conflicting data. In general most scientific work is published at a 1/20 chance of false conclusions which means that if everyone did the same type of work you would expect at least 1-2 to propose ideas which are not actually supported by the data but are just a statistical fluke.

This of course is why you check work because while there is a 5% chance (for example) you might be wrong, the chance that two people will be randomally wrong is 5% * 5% which is 0.25% . So only 1 in 400 times will two such supporting conclusions both be wrong. If you extend it to just a few more people it quickly become basically impossible. This is why it is very important to adopt an approach like gunmike has where he shares his work, finds out what others have done, rechecks, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Similar, I would strongly suggest that the minute you see anyone use a personal attack them you immediately put them on the ignore list, assuming your purpose here is to actually learn about knives. Don't feed the trolls, they thrive on attention, any attention. They are happiest when they drag you down to their level because they know they have no ability to participate at yours.
-Cliff

I have learned this the hard way, and was too thick headed to catch on quicker. Click one little ignore button, and now my Bladeforums experience is much more useful and enjoyable. This is excellent advice.

 

[Thomas W]

It doesn't matter who says something

Well I have been accused of not being much of a critical thinker by a few on this board, but when men like A.G Russell, Chris Reeve, Sal Glesser, (and others), men who are leaders in this industry speak up, I tend to give them the respect they have earned, and actually believe what they say. Their character and past accomplishments have more than proved themselves as the kind of professionals we all can trust. Their words will alweays be golden in my book.

If that makes me less than a critical thinker, I'm ok with that.

 

[geneepi]

Well I have been accused of not being much of a critical thinker by a few on this board, but when men like A.G Russell, Chris Reeve, Sal Glesser, (and others), men who are leaders in this industry speak up, I tend to give them the respect they have earned, and actually believe what they say. Their character and past accomplishments have more than proved themselves as the kind of professionals we all can trust. Their words will alweays be golden in my book.

If that makes me less than a critical thinker, I'm ok with that.

I have to agree with you. These are people who are widely repected in the knife industry unlike some people who, outside of their followers on this forum, are unknown or not taken seriously at all by the people in the field

 

[geneepi]

This of course is why you check work because while there is a 5% chance (for example) you might be wrong, the chance that two people will be randomally wrong is 5% * 5% which is 0.25% . So only 1 in 400 times will two such supporting conclusions both be wrong. If you extend it to just a few more people it quickly become basically impossible. This is why it is very important to adopt an approach like gunmike has where he shares his work, finds out what others have done, rechecks, etc. .

-Cliff

Assuming they are evaluating data produced by identical experiments, conditions, etc...rarely, if ever, the case when comparing anything related to knives.

 

[db]

Thomas and Geneepi those men do have my respect and it’s well earned. In fact I respect everyone and their views and opinions, new comers, people that have been hear for a year and more, and pretty much everyone until they start attacking me and my views, and accusing me of things I didn’t do, pointlessly and for no real reason. I think this forum is a great place and is more than just a learning tool. We can learn have fun and yes even BS and bragg without hopefully being attacked. Unfortunately even I who has no stake in much of anything have even become much more guarded in what I post because of some, very few, members. It’s an internet forum after all not a class room, at least to me.