Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

[SpySmasher]

I've never had a knife close on my hand even those without "locks", never shot a weapon except aimed where I wanted it to hit, I could go on and on. When using a deadly weapon of any kind, stay out of its "line of fire". Blades should be "aimed" only at what you intend to cut, and your eyes should be on the blade.

Welcome to the forum, Jesus.

Unfortunately, the rest of us are not perfect.

 

[marrenmiller]

How you liking that concierge btw? That is a really awesome looking knife! It’s not assisted I hope.

I kind of want to get the Natrix with the cf inlays (non assisted) in hand to check out its construction too. If it has minimal steel liners and the knife is mostly built out of g10 I think it could be interesting. Also wanna check out the bareknuckle if its not assisted and aluminum frame.



Those concace radiused lockfaces are hard to get right too. Strider’s entire lock rock issue in the past was due to the concave lockface being a portion of a too small hypothetical circle. For the radiused lockfaces to work it seems like one needs to have the curve be very slight.

Also the shorter the lockbar the tighter the circle the end of the lockbar’s motion is a portion of will be. The motion of the end of the lockbar traces a section of an imaginary circle. A longer lockbar means a bigger circle. A shorter lockbar means a smaller circle and thus the lockface of the lockbar will pull down (towards the butt direction) more quickly as it moves to a higher % of lockup. Apparently it was the very short lockbar on the Spyderco Tuff that caused lockrock issues for that knife.

I get all that, and I'm not saying they are easy. I'm actually really impressed with how well Spyderco normally does it. Add that to the long list of things they do well.

I'm just pointing out that it's the geometry that's causing the issues here. There's several ways to do a liner/frame lock correctly, and it doesn't seem like zero tolerance does any of them consistently.

 

[jill jackson]

The theme here from many seems to be, my ZT's are just fine so there's nothing wrong. Despite some having a number of ZT's with extremely weak lockup that ZT does nothing to fix when sent in. I have some too that seem fine and a couple that aren't, so I'm not giving them a pass because they managed to get most of mine right. For what they cost all of them should be and if not they should make it right.

 

[DRLyman]

The theme here from many seems to be, my ZT's are just fine so there's nothing wrong. Despite some having a number of ZT's with extremely weak lockup that ZT does nothing to fix when sent in. I have some too that seem fine and a couple that aren't, so I'm not giving them a pass because they managed to get most of mine right. For what they cost all of them should be and if not they should make it right.

Yep, it doesn't matter if you have a pelican case and a dehumidifier to show off all your ZT knives to impress your friends or own just one, they should not fail like those in the videos. No excuse for it. My 0392s passed the test and I trust them, but I will not be purchasing any more ZT knives.

 

[DRLyman]

Welcome to the forum, Jesus.

Unfortunately, the rest of us are not perfect.

And yet another post that needs a like x 10 button

 

[craytab]

The theme here from many seems to be, my ZT's are just fine so there's nothing wrong. Despite some having a number of ZT's with extremely weak lockup that ZT does nothing to fix when sent in. I have some too that seem fine and a couple that aren't, so I'm not giving them a pass because they managed to get most of mine right. For what they cost all of them should be and if not they should make it right.

Mine all pass. That said, if one didn't I'd expect it to be made right.

 

[jill jackson]

Sending back a 0450 and it still fails tapped on your hand, yet they say this. They should be ashamed. Stand behind your product 100% if you want to make claims like this.

"Zero Tolerance Knives were created to serve military, law enforcement and professional customers who sought the toughest, rock-solid built folders and fixed blades on the planet. This offshoot of Kershaw/KAI has been nothing short of a phenomenon. In addition to a cult like following from law enforcement and military users, civilians have found Zero Tolerance knives to exceed almost any expectations and many models now cannot be built fast enough for the demand.

A waiting list for production ZT knives? Pre-order and wait six months or more for some models? Are ZT knives really that good? The simple, truthful answer is YES! Built from the best materials in existence including CNC milled G-10 handle scales, rock solid titanium mono locks, ultra premium blade steels such as S30V, S35VN & Elmax, Zero Tolerance Knives are worth every penny. Zero Tolerance simply out-performs almost any production knife made and are built like a tank.

If your life depends on your gear or if you simply prefer to buy only the best quality knives that are designed to last, a Zero Tolerance blade needs to be in your future.

American made of only the highest quality components, you could easily pay twice as much and still not have the quality of a Zero Tolerance. Simply put ZT knives are built to perform and last. You can buy quality and pay a little more with a Zero Tolerance or you can buy a cheap imitation and buy again and again and never be happy with the product."

 

[MSchott]

The theme here from many seems to be, my ZT's are just fine so there's nothing wrong. Despite some having a number of ZT's with extremely weak lockup that ZT does nothing to fix when sent in. I have some too that seem fine and a couple that aren't, so I'm not giving them a pass because they managed to get most of mine right. For what they cost all of them should be and if not they should make it right.

I'd say that it depends on your point of view. I have 3 ZT flippers and none of them have any issues. From reading this thread, my point of view is the large majority of owners are not having issues and that the "problem" has been greatly conflated.

I will say that there is a great deal of knowledge here but there is also a huge amount of speculation and innuendo. KAI has a reputation for excellent customer service but some are saying that they are conspicuous by their absence in this thread. We have no idea if they even monitor internet knife sites like Blade Forums. Also remember that like any internet forum, the members are a small subset of the true market so I doubt that any negativity here will effect ZT.

 

[jill jackson]

I'd say that it depends on your point of view. I have 3 ZT flippers and none of them have any issues. From reading this thread, my point of view is the large majority of owners are not having issues and that the "problem" has been greatly conflated.

I will say that there is a great deal of knowledge here but there is also a huge amount of speculation and innuendo. KAI has a reputation for excellent customer service but some are saying that they are conspicuous by their absence in this thread. We have no idea if they even monitor internet knife sites like Blade Forums. Also remember that like any internet forum, the members are a small subset of the true market so I doubt that any negativity here will effect ZT.

Tell that to the man that owns 7 with lock problems and sent 7 in and got 7 back with lock problems. I myself have two with lock problems and until they take ownership of the problem and start replacing or fixing them see no point to send them in.

 

[James Y]

There is actually an easier way to check if the framelock will fail due to negative pressure without smashing the spine. Just lightly tapping the spine when the blade is locked open. If you can hear the noise of metal hitting metal (that's the lockbar or lockbar insert contacting the blade tang), increasing the strength of tapping/whacking will most likely disengage the blade. If all you can hear is the sound of the spine hitting the surface, then the knife is good to go.

Thanks. Both of my ZTs are liner locks, and TBH, I did notice a slight metallic sound when lightly spine tapping against my heel of palm. My Spyderco Military didn't have any metallic sound at all. My CRK knives also have zero metallic sound if I do the same thing, so maybe my ZTs would actually fail if I progressively increased the strength of the taps, though I think I've done enough for now just to notice the difference.

Jim

 

[marrenmiller]

I'd say that it depends on your point of view. I have 3 ZT flippers and none of them have any issues. From reading this thread, my point of view is the large majority of owners are not having issues and that the "problem" has been greatly conflated.

I will say that there is a great deal of knowledge here but there is also a huge amount of speculation and innuendo. KAI has a reputation for excellent customer service but some are saying that they are conspicuous by their absence in this thread. We have no idea if they even monitor internet knife sites like Blade Forums. Also remember that like any internet forum, the members are a small subset of the true market so I doubt that any negativity here will effect ZT.

I honestly think most knife owners don't check for or care about how well their knives actually lock up. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a lightly used or unused but decidedly high end knife described as having "solid lockup" that has issues like this. If they buy it and put it in a safe or carrying case, then they'll never notice.

 

[SpySmasher]

I honestly think most knife owners don't check for or care about how well their knives actually lock up. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a lightly used or unused but decidedly high end knife described as having "solid lockup" that has issues like this. If they buy it and put it in a safe or carrying case, then they'll never notice.

And even if they do care, they don't check. This is the kind of issue that can affect even NIB knives and you won't find out until it fails accidentally.

 

[jill jackson]

This guy decided his is ok as long as he's griping it.

 

[stabman]

Tell that to the man that owns 7 with lock problems and sent 7 in and got 7 back with lock problems.

I don't believe that man.
That kind of failure rate all bought by one individual? And 100% customer service failure from a company that so many people have found fixed their issues?
I call BS on that guy.

 

[BigKurtHaze]

I guess the part I don't understand, is how am I going to be better off once I spinewhack to fail all of my ZTs?

They perform well enough for my low speed, high drag lifestyle...

 

[tony281sc2]

I still haven’t done the test on my 0909; I may have already bent the linerlock inward, though I can’t remember now if that’s the case. I have to dig it out of my knife drawers before I can tell. Although I’m glad Kai still manufactures the line in the US, I feel like ZT knives should come with a warning label of some kind.

They do come with a warning label actually...
“Knives are extremely sharp tools and should only be used or handled with the utmost care and caution. Any use other than cutting (such as prying or twisting) is considered Misuse and Abuse”..... basically use the right tool
For the job. Don’t be a “tool” and use a knife as a shovel.

 

[Yonose]

This guy decided his is ok as long as he's griping it.

His solution is idiotic. I have that model, with black g-10, and the only issue I have is that it requires using too much force on the fingertip to close. It looks like he put an aftermarket scale on the knife, so I would suggest that tightening the action on the screw might give the lock more stick. If he disassembled the knife and didn’t tighten all the screws properly this problem could be a result. Or he may have opened and closed it 50,000 times. Either way, kai would and should fix this problem

 

[Lapedog]

I don't believe that man.
That kind of failure rate all bought by one individual? And 100% customer service failure from a company that so many people have found fixed their issues?
I call BS on that guy.

My impression from the guy with the 7 faulty locks is he probably spine whacked them way harder off screen previous to these videos and damaged the lock that way. In the video he was whacking that roll of tape pretty hard with some of those knives and who knows how hard he whacks it (lol) off screen.

Virtually any knife lock can be damaged if you spine whack it hard enough. However there are other examples where I do believe locks have failed under reasonsble spine tapping or worse just pressure from your palm or finger.

I do expect my lock to survive light spine taps or finger pressure. The idea being thsy when something crazy does happen my lock will absorb the hit without failing. Once that happens though I understand the lock is more likely going to have problems.

 

[stabman]

My impression from the guy with the 7 faulty locks is he probably spine whacked them way harder off screen previous to these videos and damaged the lock that way..

Kind of my thinking too.

I wonder how many people with these failures actually use their knives rather than sitting around whacking them?
I ask this because I had an Emerson knife that closed with slight spine pressure applied by hand. I was annoyed by this, but realised that the combination of steep tang angle with early lock engagement was the issue. So, I did a combination of using the knife and pushing the liner lock further over with the bottom of a plastic lighter until the lock wore in more. It has been rock solid lock-up for over 8 years now.

That's the only lock I've received where I had to get it to wear in before it was solid, but shows that wearing in can be needed on some locks.
If I had sat around whacking it damaging the not worn-in lock, I'd have a knife that would be great for making videos showing the "Failures of Emerson Knives," but would not have a knife that has served me well for over 8 years now.

 

[stabman]

I also had quite a few knives that did not have any issue closing with spine pressure, but did have slight vertical "wiggle" when new.
After some use, the wiggle disappeared completely, as the lock wore in to the spot it would remain at from then on.

What I have learned from all these threads though is that I will NEVER make a folding knife to sell to people. Fixed blades, sure; I can make those so stout that even gorillas on steroids and amphetamines cannot break them.