Recommendation? 440C vs D2 steel for a Ganzo knife?

[jlauffer]

I seriously do not understand the appeal of buying piles upon piles of cheap knives. You've seen the pictures, and we've all made fun of them. You know the ones I'm talking about. Some basement dweller who goes by the internet moniker of "xXMASTERGOKU69Xx" or "MASTERD3ATHK!LLA" brags about his "collection" and it's a bunch of UC Gil Hibben fantasy crap, ninja stars, those goofy 3 bladed folding Batman knives, and a whole lot of MTech, Master Cutlery, Tac Force, and similar garbage and rat tang wallhanger swords. Hundreds of dollars of vaguely sharp scrap metal.

Buying a whole bunch of Enlans, Ganzos, Eafengrows, and no-name Chinese framelocks masquerading as high-end production and custom knives isn't much better, and hardly any different.

Give 3 men $300 to spend on knives. Knives that he'll actually use and not just post pictures of it on instagram.

One buys a $300 knife. It's all he'll ever carry, and it'll last him the rest of his life. You can respect the man because he understands the value of quality tools and the pride in ownership that comes with it.

One buys a $100 Spyderco, a $150 Benchmade, and Mora fixed blade and a SAK. You can respect him because he is still getting high-quality tools, and he clearly understands the "best tool for the job" mentality. And he can be proud of owning them.

The 3rd man buys 10 $30 Ganzos and calls it a "collection". The first 2 men shake their heads and roll their eyes at the 3rd man. Instead of 10 junk knives, he could have bought 4 $75 knives that nobody else would scoff at. He could have bought just one $30 Ganzo as a "beater", then spend the remaining $270 one or two or three or four knives of much higher quality.

Similarly, do you want to buy a bunch of Foster Grants that bend and break easily, or do you want one good pair of Ray-bans or Maui Jims?
Do you want Harbor Freight or Snap ON?
Do you want a bunch of shoes from Payless that fall apart in a couple months, or do you want Timberlands?
Do you want an assortment of Timex watches or one Rolex?
A garage full of Huffys or one Santa Cruz?
A half-dozen Hi-Points or one Sig Sauer?
40 burgers off the dollar menu or a 9oz filet mignon?

I'm baffled there's actually people here who join to discuss Ganzos and other knock-off junk. It's a forum of hobbiests, enthusiasts, and professionals. I can't see any self-respect or pride in buying low-quality knockoffs. I can't see any enjoyment to be had in that either, but I guess not everybody feels the same way. And it in no way is tied to the cost (or lack thereof) of them, but in the choice of picking a Ganzo knockoff of a ZT 0300 or Spyderco Native by a Chinese company in a communist country when one can get a Kershaw or Byrd that is an original design by an American company to support hard-working people for the same price or a paltry few dollars more.

Buying knock-offs, and knives made by companies that make knock-offs, hurts the legitimate companies in the industry and by extension hurts the hobbiests, enthusiasts, and professionals that buy knives from legitimate countries.

Very well said, but have to take issue with Timex and Huffy. Huge range between Timex and Rolex, and I rode a Huffy when I was a kid

 

[Smiling]

I seriously do not understand the appeal of buying piles upon piles of cheap knives. You've seen the pictures, and we've all made fun of them. You know the ones I'm talking about. Some basement dweller who goes by the internet moniker of "xXMASTERGOKU69Xx" or "MASTERD3ATHK!LLA" brags about his "collection" and it's a bunch of UC Gil Hibben fantasy crap, ninja stars, those goofy 3 bladed folding Batman knives, and a whole lot of MTech, Master Cutlery, Tac Force, and similar garbage and rat tang wallhanger swords. Hundreds of dollars of vaguely sharp scrap metal.

Sadly, we all know someone like that. He also watched ZombieGoBoom channel on youtube and gets Z-Hunter knives too.

Ironically, that guy was the one to tell me how dumb I am for getting Cold Steel Recon Tanto for 50€, when he gets 5 knives for that money.

I challenged him to put his entire knife collection against my Recon Tanto and Drop Forged Hunter which were only knives I had back then. Loser has to pay a lunch.
He kept canceling and ulimativley he canceled.

Which is too bad because I was looking forwards to seeing that junk fall apart as he tries to chop something with it

 

[Planterz]

Very well said, but have to take issue with Timex and Huffy. Huge range between Timex and Rolex, and I rode a Huffy when I was a kid

Some Timex watches are actually pretty nice. Maybe I should have compared Armitron to Luminox.

 

[r8shell]

Very well said, but have to take issue with Timex and Huffy. Huge range between Timex and Rolex, and I rode a Huffy when I was a kid

Same here!
I am in no way a watch aficionado, so I buy a Timex (or cheaper) and wear it for a year or so until it breaks and I buy another one. That's the choice I'm making to treat a watch as a disposable tool. I can't imagine collecting a bunch of knock-off "Rhymexes", and going on a watch collecting forum and recommending them. That almost sounds like trolling.

If someone wants a good beater knife, I recommend the Spyderco Byrd line.

As to the question of whether Ganzo can be trusted to actually give you the steel that's marked on the blades, there's an old saying: "If he'll cheat with you, he'll cheat on you."

 

[cbrstar]

Very well said, but have to take issue with Timex and Huffy. Huge range between Timex and Rolex, and I rode a Huffy when I was a kid

Huffy's were for the kids who didn't have paper routes

It's one thing to buy a piece of junk like a ganzo out of ignorance. But the whole point of joining a community like this is to get educated so you don't buy garbage. So If 99.9999% of the community is saying don't buy ganzo because they are thieving scum. Then maybe it's time to sit back and re-evaluate your poor purchases and move onto a good legitimate knife brand.

 

[King of the Cheese]

I seriously do not understand the appeal of buying piles upon piles of cheap knives. You've seen the pictures, and we've all made fun of them. You know the ones I'm talking about. Some basement dweller who goes by the internet moniker of "xXMASTERGOKU69Xx" or "MASTERD3ATHK!LLA" brags about his "collection" and it's a bunch of UC Gil Hibben fantasy crap, ninja stars, those goofy 3 bladed folding Batman knives, and a whole lot of MTech, Master Cutlery, Tac Force, and similar garbage and rat tang wallhanger swords. Hundreds of dollars of vaguely sharp scrap metal.

Buying a whole bunch of Enlans, Ganzos, Eafengrows, and no-name Chinese framelocks masquerading as high-end production and custom knives isn't much better, and hardly any different.

Give 3 men $300 to spend on knives. Knives that he'll actually use and not just post pictures of it on instagram.

One buys a $300 knife. It's all he'll ever carry, and it'll last him the rest of his life. You can respect the man because he understands the value of quality tools and the pride in ownership that comes with it.

One buys a $100 Spyderco, a $150 Benchmade, and Mora fixed blade and a SAK. You can respect him because he is still getting high-quality tools, and he clearly understands the "best tool for the job" mentality. And he can be proud of owning them.

The 3rd man buys 10 $30 Ganzos and calls it a "collection". The first 2 men shake their heads and roll their eyes at the 3rd man. Instead of 10 junk knives, he could have bought 4 $75 knives that nobody else would scoff at. He could have bought just one $30 Ganzo as a "beater", then spend the remaining $270 one or two or three or four knives of much higher quality.

Similarly, do you want to buy a bunch of Foster Grants that bend and break easily, or do you want one good pair of Ray-bans or Maui Jims?
Do you want Harbor Freight or Snap ON?
Do you want a bunch of shoes from Payless that fall apart in a couple months, or do you want Timberlands?
Do you want an assortment of Timex watches or one Rolex?
A garage full of Huffys or one Santa Cruz?
A half-dozen Hi-Points or one Sig Sauer?
40 burgers off the dollar menu or a 9oz filet mignon?

I'm baffled there's actually people here who join to discuss Ganzos and other knock-off junk. It's a forum of hobbiests, enthusiasts, and professionals. I can't see any self-respect or pride in buying low-quality knockoffs. I can't see any enjoyment to be had in that either, but I guess not everybody feels the same way. And it in no way is tied to the cost (or lack thereof) of them, but in the choice of picking a Ganzo knockoff of a ZT 0300 or Spyderco Native by a Chinese company in a communist country when one can get a Kershaw or Byrd that is an original design by an American company to support hard-working people for the same price or a paltry few dollars more.

Buying knock-offs, and knives made by companies that make knock-offs, hurts the legitimate companies in the industry and by extension hurts the hobbiests, enthusiasts, and professionals that buy knives from legitimate countries. How such people can do that, yet still consider themselves to be part of the knife enthusiast community, is beyond my comprehension.

Look, I’ll agree we shouldn’t fund companies that rip off other company designs to profit from stealing, but Timex, Huffy, and hi-points fill a need for economically challenged individuals. I’ve had Timex Ironman watches that served me well, I had a huffy when I was a kid because my parents couldn’t afford Free Agents and Treks.... and a hi-point, if that is all someone can AFFORD will serve as protection for someone that needs it. We can’t all afford to roll around on a Santa Cruz with Ray Bans and Timberlands, checking time with a Rolex strapped with a Sig. I’d be more inclined to think that’s a drug dealer that couldn’t get a drivers license.

My point is, none of these comparisons capture the true issue here, and that’s what we should focus on: A company willingly ripping off a hard working knife company.

 

[Planterz]

Look, I’ll agree we shouldn’t fund companies that rip off other company designs to profit from stealing, but Timex, Huffy, and hi-points fill a need for economically challenged individuals. I’ve had Timex Ironman watches that served me well, I had a huffy when I was a kid because my parents couldn’t afford Free Agents and Treks.... and a hi-point, if that is all someone can AFFORD will serve as protection for someone that needs it. We can’t all afford to roll around on a Santa Cruz with Ray Bans and Timberlands, checking time with a Rolex strapped with a Sig. I’d be more inclined to think that’s a drug dealer that couldn’t get a drivers license.

My point is, none of these comparisons capture the true issue here, and that’s what we should focus on: A company willingly ripping off a hard working knife company.

You've completely missed my point. You're arguing against something I didn't say.

 

[King of the Cheese]

You've completely missed my point. You're arguing against something I didn't say.

No I think I addressed your comparisons fairly accurately. But I’m not trying to offend you or anything, just pointing out the ridiculousness in them.

 

[timberweasel]

I don't buy knives from China anymore. I used to and I still have a few in my collection--but then I did some research on my own and came to my own conclusions: the rabbit hole is deep. If others want to buy Ganzo, SanRenMu, WE, Reate or even those 'officially' sanctioned to bear a Western brand/logo, fill yer boots. I don't have to agree, but I will respect others' right to choose for themselves.

It is almost impossible to discuss Chinese methods and means of manufacturing/export without becoming political. Or be mistaken for a classist/racist/thisaphobe/thataphobe. Too many arguments are made from emotion. So I'll leave off.

 

[ArchVV]

We're all insane here haha, good stuff

 

[danbot]

@Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.

Make sure to buy one because of me too!

 

[King of the Cheese]

@Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it.

Read the two parts I placed in bold and tell me that doesn’t sound odd.
The OP of this post appears to have created a count solely for the purpose of creating this thread. Does that not tell you anything? Would Sherlock Holmes, in all of his infinite wisdom and resources, his investigative prowess, ever perhaps be able to ascertain WHY someone would create an account just to post this thread?
(Cue the jeopardy final challenge music)

 

[herisson]

No I think I addressed your comparisons fairly accurately. But I’m not trying to offend you or anything, just pointing out the ridiculousness in them.

No, you missed the point by a fair margin. Buying counterfeits / clones is not a viable solution for "economically challenged" people. It's just a lie and most often agitated by people wanting to promote those thieving, lying brands... Cheap, local, affordable solutions exist... They may need a smidge of additional research... No, not even. The ridiculousness is on you.

 

[Quiet]

Okay, that's fine. I suppose it doesn't matter if I was right on anything, or if I made solid points on anything, or if I was adhering to a higher standard of logic regardless of @Insipid Moniker 's interpretation. I gave credit to @Eli Chaps for contributing something meaningful to the discussion and just got a mini-lecture about being smart.

Look, I bothered here not just because of my perception of an angry mob with pitchforks, etc.; but an angry mod that is both dedicated to something that I don't think really helps our community and also tends to undermine itself in the way it argues. I could go into more detail but things like conflating tool quality and business ethics or attacking people personally reflects poorly upon a position.

Perhaps it was lost in too much text but I'd love to see everyone who care about some of these issues taking deeper and more effective steps to address them. (Kudos to those who already do.) On rights, take a minute to donate to Knife Rights. On accountability for the systemic factors that allow Ganzo to consistently profit from copycat knives in the United States, including through major retailers like Amazon; take up activism either politically or socially to change the system that allows that to be a profitable activity. The same goes for the anti-China folks and the actual causes for things like the trade balance or the prosperity of domestic manufacturing. On accountability for companies, the Benchmade example is very real but apart from saying it's "off the ranch" or "a distraction", it's yet another unaddressed point. Beyond being a matter of consistency or priorities for members taking up the activist mantle here, apply a point made by the anti-Ganzo crew and realize that it is happening in your "backyard".

I really don't see how us warning people away from buying products made by a garbage cloner company like Ganzo could possibly be construed as "NOT helping our community". This is your disconnect, no one else's.

 

[Quiet]

@Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.

BLEEP BLEEP final level boss Defender Drone detected.

 

[King of the Cheese]

No, you missed the point by a fair margin. Buying counterfeits / clones is not a viable solution for "economically challenged" people. It's just a lie and most often agitated by people wanting to promote those thieving, lying brands... Cheap, local, affordable solutions exist... They may need a smidge of additional research... No, not even. The ridiculousness is on you.

Huffy, Timex, and Hi-Point aren’t “counterfeits”, so I’m sorry but I’m afraid it is YOU that is missing MY point. I think you might be lost so allow me to assist:
I’m not a fan of Ganzo. But comparing Ganzo to Timex, Huffy, and Hi-Point is a really bad comparison considering the fact that those companies are NOT counterfeiters.
Are we on the same page now?

 

[Quiet]

I think all this is less about being an “anti Ganzo crusader”, and more about doing the right thing. As an objective unbiased onlooker, I read all this and I personally take issue with a company that thinks they can take all the hard work companies put into design and just push generic copies for profit.

Whelp @Chronovore looks like that's what, five or six knives you have to buy now? LOL

Do they even have that many designs they haven't stolen from someone else?

 

[herisson]

This shall be my final speech to defend Ganzo, of all crappy brands one of the crappiest, so pay attention.
Duely noted, be on your way...

 

[King of the Cheese]

Whelp @Chronovore looks like that's what, five or six knives you have to buy now? LOL

Do they even have that many designs they haven't stolen from someone else?

Hey one more person and he could have an “anti-Ganzo crusader” knife for every day of the week! Can we get t shirts and patches? I’m picturing some sort of play on the red and white crusader shield, but with Ganzo.

 

[craytab]

@Insipid Moniker , I have made my arguments and they stand. @Danke42 , A is based on murky intellectual property claims. B is your opinion but is that a permanent condition? Don't bother answering. It seems you've got me dead to rights as a dishonest person and an apologist with ulterior motives... Now I really am done. This shall serve as my final speech to the anti-Ganzo crusaders so pay attention.

One point I've tried to make is that bad arguments and personal attacks are barriers to the activist. Not only can they act as a barrier to growth, they can turn friends into foes.

I've consistently expressed my distaste for copycatting. I have refused to buy Ganzo's copycat knives and I haven't promoted them. However, I have purchased one of Ganzo's original knives. I've expressed my hope that Ganzo does well with their original designs and one day abandons the copycat business. That doesn't mean they will. It's just what I'd like to see happen.

Now, I've argued that for all its fire, the anti-Ganzo crusade here doesn't really accomplish anything positive. As much as Ganzo's international copycat business might not feel that sandbox activism here, Ganzo probably doesn't feel my refusal either. So relative to them, it wouldn't make a big difference if I decided to buy one. Relative to the minuscule effectiveness of the anti-Ganzo activism here, I reckon it makes a pretty big difference. So how about this?

From now on, whenever I see the torches of the anti-Ganzo crusade, I'll be sure to neutralize its overall impact by buying one. Don't get me wrong. A brief and civil PSA about Ganzo's history of improperly copying designs or design elements is a good thing. In fact, it's one of the first things I say when Ganzo comes up. It's the zealous, ugly, logic-blind firebombing of every Ganzo thread or the people who question it. That's when I'll act. That'll have a much bigger effect and take up a lot less of my time. Plus, I'll get new knives to play with and firsthand experience to share with the people coming here to ask about them. So by all means, take up your pitchforks. Just remember that the biggest thing you'll be accomplishing is a sale for Ganzo.

Thanks for definitively showing your true character! You'll be buying a lot of ganzos and I bet you will still get in these little arguments. Buy another one for me!